[snaithbert]

Jariten, I'm sure if you ask a million people, one or two will tell you that they really love being stabbed in the face. But when the other 999,998 people tell you that they're not huge fans of facial stabbing- they might be onto something.

My not so subtle point here is that yes, there are some critics who said good stuff about the new movies. But the fact that they're so few and far between oughta tell you something. No, being a big name critic doesn't make you a genius, but there's a reason these guys got to where they are- they're pretty good at film criticism. In any case, you disregard the bigger picture, which is that SO many critics hated the phantom menace AND attack of the clones. By your arguement, since you were able to find a few that didn't hate those movies- they must be good? That's like saying we found some guys who like Hitler so maybe he's not such a bad guy.

Be logical, Jariten. They're bad movies. And simply WANTING them to be good doesn't MAKE them good. Believe me, I love Star Wars and I so so so wanted them to be good. But they're not. As much as it pains me to say it, George Lucas isn't a good writer or director. He's a brilliant innovator and businessman, but creatively he brings nothing to the table and it's only the reputation of his far superior films that keeps people coming back for more. Without the original trilogy, George (and i'm sure he'd want me to call him by his first name) would still be picking up Francis Ford Coppola's dry cleaning, quite frankly. He got lucky once, but clearly his luck has run out, mainly because he refused to admit he needed help. He started believing his own hype and it turned out to be just that- hype. He's no creative genius, just a financial one. He belongs behind a desk making phone calls and sealing deals- not creating stories that will last for decades and inspire entire generations, etc.

I think if Mr. Lucas ever WAS a creative genius- that's all over now. He's so far removed from regular people that there's no way he could ever make a movie they'd want to see. Maybe George Lucas wants to see these new Star Wars movies, but other than the "oh my gosh it's star wars" factor- no one else does.

Frankly I think if the George Lucas of 1977 met the George Lucas of 2005- he'd be utterly disgusted.

[jariten]

I've heard comments like that so many times that i'm numb to them.

"Face it, they're bad movies! Look! The tomato meter tells me so!"

If you want to convince me that they're bad, tell me how (this probably isn't the thread to do it). Because right now all your saying to me is "I don't like apples, therefore you can't like them either".

Come on, don't hide behind critics. The actual truth of critical responses is that some liked them and some didnt. If I had the time and patience I could trawl the net and dig up all the old magazines I have (that dont have web sites) and prove this to you. I want to discuss these films without them being mediated by the critics reactions all the time.

The only reason I came up with those UK critics was because I wanted to show HK 47 that theres life beyond rottentomatos.com.

[use the force]

Yes, jariten is right, some critics hated them and some thought they were good. The critics werent fond of the OT either. If you check on IMDB.com you will see that AOTC got a 7/10. Pretty good for a movie that you seem to say was hated by mostly everyone on Earth,snailbert.The fact is, just because a selective group of about 10 bashers here don't like th films doesn't mean everyody else views it that way. There are alot more popular sites than this which have a lot more memebers who all are star wars fans and talk about everyday how they love the movies. Once again,it doesn't mean the whole world thinks like them, but i think its fair to say that the prequels are more loved than hated .

[snaithbert]

If you want to convince me that they're bad, tell me how

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Got it, no problem.

Just go here:

http://www.chefelf.c...tarwars/ep1.php

And here:

http://www.chefelf.c...rs/ep2_1-10.php

Those sum it up better than I ever could.

They hit almost every point as to why the prequels suck.

A lot.

And as for the guy who says that the prequels are more loved than hated, all I can say is please turn yourself in, because you're completely, utterly insane and you may be dangerous to those around you.

[HeckHouse]

No Paladin, I've never been a mod anywhere... I'd like to think he/she was a good mod?

[JW Wells]

Interesting Box Office numbers (also from imdb.com) here. Phantom Menace is #4 on the list of all-time highest-grossing films (in theatre), while Attack of the Clones is #22. For reference, AOTC is behind all three Lord of the Rings movies, as well as all three Harry Potter films.

Also interesting is that the LOTR take went up for each successive film, whereas the normal trend is to go down - Fellowship was #10, Two Towers #5, and Return of the King is second only to Titanic in overall take.

The falling-off in the take between TPM and AOTC was quite surprising, even more than I expected. To a certain extent, The Phantom Menace benefitted from being a major, major event, as Star Wars geeks world-wide flocked to theatres for a new installment of a series covered in nostalgia. AOTC wasn't going to get that much of a lift, but it still brought in only 70% of the TPM take. We'll see how Revenge of the Sith does, but these numbers support the conclusion that it's Lord of the Rings that will have the impact on this generation that Star Wars had on the late 70s-early 80s generation.

[barend]

popular opinion is never an argument i use...especially because jariten is only in a minority here. but if everyone else in the world were here, Jar would be in the maj.

jariten is right though, critics and opinions matter not.
we've pulled these films apart bit by bit, and found worms, but somepeople don't ming the tangy, crunchy, tangy, squirmy taste of them in their apple.

and everytime we point out a flaw (at least the minor ones) it is about as validating as calling someone fat, in the heat of a political debate.

pointing out flaws to fans will not anything, any more then realizing the woman you love has a really ugly little toe on her right foot. it doesn't matter.

i love what chefelf has done, and love tearing them to shreds on these boards. why... because its so damn easy... and someone with that much cash should not be leaving so many weaknesse. someone who had thirty bloody years to work on these should have had less plot holes, and someone who was loved by so many fans, damnit, just should of tried a little harder to maintain the quality.

the basic problem, as to why i have a distaste to the films, however.

is that i just don't feel the love in these films. people were rushed through production, because the man at the helm was in too much of a rush to play with his gadgets then take the necesary time to let the characters and actors bond. it DOES cpome across to me...
there is passion missing from these films.

and maybe that isn't important to others but is to me.

Jariten, i think you have every right to love these films (not condescendingly giving you permission, just saying is all). and i envy yiou for that. i would like to enjoy these films... but godamn it, they just lack care. they don't make me feel anything.

when hansolo comes in at the end of ANH to knock the tie fighters out i get the biggest case of goose bumps everytime. there are so many moments like that in the OT, but its not there in the PT...
it just isn't. it's like a band that was really popular who made it into the charts under there own merits without selling out, but then sold out to stay there even though they didn't have to.

i guess what i am saying is...

that the PT is GLs 'Load' and 'Reload' (metalica).

[Paladin]

No Paladin, I've never been a mod anywhere... I'd like to think he/she was a good mod?

Sadly no. That said mod was probably the most arrogent lout I've ever seen in my entire life. I seriously doubt I'll ever see such stupidity and arrogence again in my life. But then again, a lot of mods were quite terrible on that webiste.

But I didn't mean any offense, but your writing style did remind me a lot of him, though...

[HeckHouse]

Ack! I will try not be be as arrogent as he was.

[Paladin]

Don't worry about it, you aren't. At least you don't go around throwing very impolite orders at people for things that a moderator can't do (he told me to stop doing things that WEREN'T against the rules) and does deny requests by claiming that 'I'm not your personal slave' and carry's on describing how no one else is. Despite the fact that it was a simple request and not an order or demand.

That's just a little bit of what he did. That guy made in excess of 100 posts on the website, but after he left, all by 24 remained... apparently, I wasn't the only one he harassed.

This post has been edited by Paladin: 23 March 2005 - 02:52 AM

[jariten]

Got it, no problem.

Just go here:

http://www.chefelf.c...tarwars/ep1.php

And here:

http://www.chefelf.c...rs/ep2_1-10.php

Those sum it up better than I ever could.

They hit almost every point as to why the prequels suck.

A lot.

And as for the guy who says  that the prequels are more loved than hated, all I can say is please turn yourself in, because you're completely, utterly insane and you may be dangerous to those around you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I asked for your opinion. Until you give it to me i'm not interested.

JW Wells-

Using popularity to judge the quality of something is the lowest of the low. Box office receipts depend so much on trends, advertising, and fashions that become irrelevant as time passes (theres a number of instances of films failing miserably at the box office, only to be revived years later). Just one example of this- LOTR opened on a lot more screens than AotC did (which only made slightly less than LOTR did and beat HP I believe. It also made 650 odd million worldwide. It recouped SIX TIMES the money it cost to make.) Would you suggest that what gets to the top of the charts represents the best that music has to offer?

[JW Wells]

JW Wells-

Using popularity to judge the quality of something is the lowest of the low. Box office receipts depend so much on trends, advertising, and fashions that become irrelevant as time passes (theres a number of instances of films failing miserably at the box office, only to be revived years later). Just one example of this- LOTR opened on a lot more screens than AotC did (which only made slightly less than LOTR did and beat HP I believe. It also made 650 odd million worldwide. It recouped SIX TIMES the money it cost to make.) Would you suggest that what gets to the top of the charts represents the best that music has to offer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lowest of the low? There's no need to be rude, is there?

That said, I wanted to pull out some numbers that had nothing to do with a movie's critical reception. They may be gauche, but box office numbers are a good indicator of how popular a movie was. Quality, of course, is another issue entirely. That said, Attack of the Clones made a mint ($648.2 million) - quite a profit. However, each of the Harry Potter movies to date made $750 million plus, and the LOTR movies made $850 million plus.

I took a look at opening screen listings, and "Fellowship of the Ring" opened on 3,359 screens in the US and 470 in the UK. "Attack of the Clones" got a slightly smaller 3,161 screens US and 467 UK - not much of a difference. The interesting fact was that "The Phantom Menace", which I remember every theatre owner being willing to sacrifice their first-born to show, opened on only 2,970 screens US and 460 UK. I don't know what this means, other than that when added to the glowing UK reviews the British seem to be bigger prequel trilogy fans than us Yanks!

[CowboyCurtis]

You know, if the OT were never made, if there weren't the items in the OT which were there to shape the PT, I MAY have liked PT (doubt I still would've liked Jar Jar, though). I MAY have.


But, Jariten how can you explain comments like this in the OT:

OT Obi-Wan: "When I first met your father, I was amazed at how strong he was in the Force."

PT Obi-Wan: "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic lifeform."

OT Obi-Wan: "...the good man who was your father..."

PT: The only place where Anakin is actually GOOD is in TPM, and he's how old---8 or 9? I don't care WHAT culture you're from... 8 or 9 is not a MAN! And I didn't see a "good man" in AOTC, and obviously there will be no "good man" in ROTS.

(And PLEASE don't use the stupid "from a certain point of view" argument. That was major Lucas cop-out statement in ROTJ)

These are just A FEW elements presented in the OT<<<which gushers "conveniently forget" happened first, and there would never have been no demand/expectations for the Prequels.

And these are NOT "minor details" these change characters. Obi-Wan went from a wise mentor to a doddering, lying old fool.

As I've said a bajillion times---PT's should be defined by the OT, not the other way around.

[snaithbert]

I asked for your opinion. Until you give it to me i'm not interested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay Jariten, how's this.

The prequel films are cold, uninteresting, robotic, formulaic (but not in a fun way) movies that reflect almost none of the creativity or heart of their predecessors.

They're made by a man who thinks that because he once was great (with the help of others) that he must STILL be great. But in reality, he's just pumping out more brainless, utterly insipid big budget garbage and the only thing that keeps him from being decried as an utter failure are the words "STAR WARS" in the title.

Barend got it right when he referenced the moment in Star Wars when Han Solo saves the day and clears the path for Luke, etc. There are a LOT of moments like that in the OT, moments that draw us in, even if we've seen them a million times, etc. Moments like that capture our imagination and stay with us forever (or at least 30 years) and we savor them, even when we're not watching the movies.

There are NO moments like that in the PT. Not in the first two films, at least. There is NOTHING that people will always remember, other than that the films themselves existed. In fact if anything, the PT wil be best remembered for its BAD moments, the ones that made us all laugh and wince, etc. I'm sure the college students of tomorrow will enjoy sitting around talking about the fart jokes in Phantom Menace as well as two headed announcers who spout lame cliches like "that's gotta hurt," etc.

My point here is that the PT will leave nothing behind but a lot of dissapointed fans and maybe a landfill containing thousands of Pizza Hut cups and Yoda Pepsi cans, etc. The films contain no magic, no charm, no wonder. They feel like they were made by a computer programmed to make Star Wars movies. They have no heart whatsoever, they're forced and obvious and contain almost nothing that made the OT so wonderful. Instead of characters we can connect with and emulate, we get tons and tons of special effects and a plot no one can decipher, let alone give a crap about.

Lucas has always said that he waited until the special effects caught up with his imagination before making another trilogy. But at some point during the wait, he forgot that movies are more than special effects. There has to be a story, one that people can lose themselves in. It has to draw you in and captivate you, has to make you care about the characters, make you think about them long after the movie is over. People have been making good movies for a long time, without amazing special effects. One of them WAS George Lucas, but now it seems that since he's got the special effects- he doesn't need anything else. So yes, the movies look cool (sort of) but everything else, everything that's the very heart and soul of the film- isn't there. And as I've said before, no matter how much we WANT it to be there- it's not. The films are cold, sterile and unimaginative and no amount of eye-popping special effects can fix that.

People love to say stuff like "Well, it's George's movie and he can do what he wants," etc. But I say that just because George Lucas gave birth to Star Wars doesn't mean he's necessarily the best person to raise it. It's like making a kid stay with his violent, abusive father, because after all- he IS the kid's father. Well in this case, the father is doing serious damage to the kid. And the result is that the kid is growing up to be a real peice of garbage.

George Lucas may have been a good storyteller once, but as his fortune and name grew, his creative abilities seem to have decreased. He's so sheltered and secure now that I don't think he has any idea how to make a good movie, Star Wars or not. How can someone like him really know what people want to see? He seems to hate people- especially Star Wars fans. And this is the guy we're trusting to make new Star Wars movies? I'd prefer someone who might actually go to a theater to SEE a movie, not a guy who despises us regular folks so much that he's basically building his own country to get away from us. He doesn't mind taking our money, but he's not too keen on our criticism. Well in the end, everyone lost. Because not only do we get three shitty movies, but George Lucas has ensured that star wars will go out with a whimper, not a bang. And now instead of spending the NEXT 30 years talking about how GOOD the first trilogy was, we'll be spending them talking about how BAD the new trilogy was.

And that's my opinion, Jariten.

Now please please please don't post saying something like "well i disagree and I'm entitled to my opinion."

Because that would really dissapoint me.

[Despondent]

I saw Artoo on a box of Cheese-its last night. Brace yourself for the deluge.