[Helena]

OK, I wasn't sure whether to put this in the 'Video Games' forum instead, but I chose this one because there's already a different KOTOR thread there. Anyway, I was recently reading through some of the KOTOR 2 previews at sites like Gamespot, and there's a lot of discussion over whether new developers Obsidian (taking over from Bioware) are up to the task of producing a sequel to one of the best RPGs ever. And I realised something: although the new game sounds great in many ways, every single aspect of the storyline just annoys the hell out of me. And I need to get it off my chest.

So, here are the reasons why I already hate KOTOR 2. (Just in case you missed the thread sub-title, there are SPOILERS here for the first game.)
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1. Can anyone say 'reset button'?
The original KOTOR had two basic endings, one for the Light Side and one for the Dark Side. As you can see from the brief summaries below, these endings are completely incompatible with each other:

Light Side ending: The war may not be over, but there is no way the Republic can lose. They have the two most powerful Jedi in the Galaxy on their side. The Sith have lost their most powerful weapon (the only thing that allowed them to hold out against Bastila's Battle Meditation); their leader is dead with no clear successor. It is clearly stated that you have 'broken the spirit' of the Sith.

Dark Side ending: The Republic is doomed; their fleet has been decimated and the only two Jedi who could save them have joined the Dark Side. Revan, the new Dark Lord of the Sith, will undoubtedly take over the galaxy.

There are two possibilities for a sequel. Number one: pick an ending and stick with it (and it would pretty much have to be the Light Side ending, as we know the Republic doesn't fall until Palpatine's day.) Number two: set the game prior to KOTOR, or else hundreds or even thousands of years later; that way you can gloss over what happened at the end of the original game. OK, so you wouldn't be able to include any characters from KOTOR, but that's going to be a problem anyway since most of them died in one ending or another.

Obsidian, however, have chosen the third option: chicken out and push the reset button. Not wanting to upset anyone by choosing the 'wrong' ending, they've come up with a clumsy attempt to combine the two storylines in a way guaranteed to please no one: five years after the KOTOR ending, the war is still raging. The Sith have somehow reasserted themselves and the Republic is in a worse state than ever (bang goes the Light Side ending) and Revan has mysteriously disappeared off into unknown space (bang goes the Dark Side ending).

Obsidian have promised that the storyline will change slightly depending on what the player says happened in the original ending. This doesn't change the fact that it basically renders everything you achieved in the first game utterly irrelevent. Fuck you, Obsidian.

2. "And the Jedi protected the Republic for a thousand generations... oh yeah, except for that time when the Republic practically collapsed and the Order was disbanded."
Yep, that's right: at the beginning of KOTOR II, the Jedi Order has been disbanded - leaving your character as 'the last Jedi in the galaxy'. Not only does this make a complete mockery of the Light Side ending, but it's simply impossible to square with what we're told in the movies. Don't you think an event as momentuous as the dissolution of the millennia-old Jedi Order would have been mentioned at some point - like when Obi-Wan was discussing the history of the Jedi? But no, it's never even hinted at.

Bioware did their level best to make the first game consistent with established Star Wars canon. What makes Obsidian think they have the right to screw it up? This means I can only view KOTOR 2 as a sort of 'alternate universe' storyline, like the Dark Side ending of the original game. I hate you, Obsidian.

3. Losing touch with the Force.
Unlike in the first game, you start KOTOR 2 as a Jedi. Only you can't use many of your Force powers, as you've 'lost your connection to the Force' after several years in exile. Just like Obi-Wan did after all those years hiding out in the desert, remember? Oh, wait...

4. Seven villains for the price of one.
Never mind that however many Sith there are, up till now there have always been just two Sith Lords - the Dark Lord and his apprentice. In KOTOR 2 you will face a multitude of Sith Lords - I 've even heard the figure put as high as seven. Clearly Obsidian are going for the George Lucas 'quantity equals quality' approach; why bother with one strong, well-written villain when you can have lots of weak ones instead?

5.Revan's fate.
Although you don't play Revan in the sequel, apparently you will learn what happened to him/her. This is probably the one thing that most people would prefer not to be told, since it may be entirely the opposite of what they imagined. All I can say is, he/she had better not turn out to be the main villain. Or your father.


I love KOTOR more than I can say. It's the thing that really got me into Star Wars in the first place, making me want to re-watch the movies. It's the first computer game - indeed, the first anything - that's inspired me to write fanfic for it. You had better not screw this one up, Obsidian.

Ah, that feels better.

[barend]

yeah, this idea of a sequel is a bit of a quesy thing.

does anyone remember Wing Commander 2, that was cool, because the came could take your saved character from WC1, and continue from there, okay sure it was of less consequence but, hell it was cool to carry your pips...

i hate when games have the feeling of a batman sequel love interest.
hey dude what happened to vicky?
I don't know
hey man, what happened to cat woman?
er....
and the other chick?
i didn't work out?
and then there was...

etc. etc.

So why fuck up the ending... you leave the first game assuming your going to...
HAPPY ENDING:
put your medal in a case and go home and make sweet love to Bastila
EVIL HAPPY ENDING:
rule the galaxy, and controll the sith, when not on your busy schedual of making sweet love to Bastila.

to continue... you'd have to start the game on level 20, with the Ebon Hawk, all your cool robes, and guns and 472 lightsabers, with all 9 companions hanging about... or take all that away and leave you diminished in nothingness... that's a week idea and trivializes the ending of part one.

FALLOUT 2 on the other hand was a great sequel because you where the great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandchild of your character in FALLOUT 1. this worked great.

So i think they should skip a genreation or two... so that you have an excuse to be so low in acheivement.

[barend]

dammit i knew there was another series i couldn't think of!
good work,
and yes exactly!!!

[Chefelf]

1. Can anyone say 'reset button'?
The original KOTOR had two basic endings, one for the Light Side and one for the Dark Side. As you can see from the brief summaries below, these endings are completely incompatible with each other:

Light Side ending: The war may not be over, but there is no way the Republic can lose. They have the two most powerful Jedi in the Galaxy on their side. The Sith have lost their most powerful weapon (the only thing that allowed them to hold out against Bastila's Battle Meditation); their leader is dead with no clear successor. It is clearly stated that you have 'broken the spirit' of the Sith.

Dark Side ending: The Republic is doomed; their fleet has been decimated and the only two Jedi who could save them have joined the Dark Side. Revan, the new Dark Lord of the Sith, will undoubtedly take over the galaxy.

There are two possibilities for a sequel. Number one: pick an ending and stick with it (and it would pretty much have to be the Light Side ending, as we know the Republic doesn't fall until Palpatine's day.) Number two: set the game prior to KOTOR, or else hundreds or even thousands of years later; that way you can gloss over what happened at the end of the original game. OK, so you wouldn't be able to include any characters from KOTOR, but that's going to be a problem anyway since most of them died in one ending or another.

Obsidian, however, have chosen the third option: chicken out and push the reset button. Not wanting to upset anyone by choosing the 'wrong' ending, they've come up with a clumsy attempt to combine the two storylines in a way guaranteed to please no one: five years after the KOTOR ending, the war is still raging. The Sith have somehow reasserted themselves and the Republic is in a worse state than ever (bang goes the Light Side ending) and Revan has mysteriously disappeared off into unknown space (bang goes the Dark Side ending).

Obsidian have promised that the storyline will change slightly depending on what the player says happened in the original ending. This doesn't change the fact that it basically renders everything you achieved in the first game utterly irrelevent. Fuck you, Obsidian.

Okay, I'm going to do something that is very different than my normal approach... I'm going to take a positive outlook on all of these points for the new game! The original KOTOR brought me so much joy that I'm going to go into the new game with a positive outlook! What harm could come of that? It's not like Star Wars has ever let me down before when I've expected the best!

Oops. POSITIVE! Here we go:

1. Can anyone say 'reset button'?
The original KOTOR had two basic endings, one for the Light Side and one for the Dark Side. As you can see from the brief summaries below, these endings are completely incompatible with each other:

Light Side ending: The war may not be over, but there is no way the Republic can lose. They have the two most powerful Jedi in the Galaxy on their side. The Sith have lost their most powerful weapon (the only thing that allowed them to hold out against Bastila's Battle Meditation); their leader is dead with no clear successor. It is clearly stated that you have 'broken the spirit' of the Sith.

Dark Side ending: The Republic is doomed; their fleet has been decimated and the only two Jedi who could save them have joined the Dark Side. Revan, the new Dark Lord of the Sith, will undoubtedly take over the galaxy.

There are two possibilities for a sequel. Number one: pick an ending and stick with it (and it would pretty much have to be the Light Side ending, as we know the Republic doesn't fall until Palpatine's day.) Number two: set the game prior to KOTOR, or else hundreds or even thousands of years later; that way you can gloss over what happened at the end of the original game. OK, so you wouldn't be able to include any characters from KOTOR, but that's going to be a problem anyway since most of them died in one ending or another.

Obsidian, however, have chosen the third option: chicken out and push the reset button. Not wanting to upset anyone by choosing the 'wrong' ending, they've come up with a clumsy attempt to combine the two storylines in a way guaranteed to please no one: five years after the KOTOR ending, the war is still raging. The Sith have somehow reasserted themselves and the Republic is in a worse state than ever (bang goes the Light Side ending) and Revan has mysteriously disappeared off into unknown space (bang goes the Dark Side ending).

Obsidian have promised that the storyline will change slightly depending on what the player says happened in the original ending. This doesn't change the fact that it basically renders everything you achieved in the first game utterly irrelevent. Fuck you, Obsidian.

It seems odd. It seems like they'd be better served to do a Final Fantasy type thing and have it take place in the same universe but not have to blatantly use characters and situations from the first game.

I don't buy the idea of having similar characters, even though I loved the characters in the first game.

2. "And the Jedi protected the Republic for a thousand generations... oh yeah, except for that time when the Republic practically collapsed and the Order was disbanded."
Yep, that's right: at the beginning of KOTOR II, the Jedi Order has been disbanded - leaving your character as 'the last Jedi in the galaxy'. Not only does this make a complete mockery of the Light Side ending, but it's simply impossible to square with what we're told in the movies. Don't you think an event as momentuous as the dissolution of the millennia-old Jedi Order would have been mentioned at some point - like when Obi-Wan was discussing the history of the Jedi? But no, it's never even hinted at.

Bioware did their level best to make the first game consistent with established Star Wars canon. What makes Obsidian think they have the right to screw it up? This means I can only view KOTOR 2 as a sort of 'alternate universe' storyline, like the Dark Side ending of the original game. I hate you, Obsidian.

Disbanded? That seems odd. It also seems odd that there would be two points in history where there was only one Jedi left in the universe and the whole order was reestablished. That can't be easy to pull off. I bet there are a lot of extinct species that are pissed off about this one. I BET THERE ARE!!

3. Losing touch with the Force.
Unlike in the first game, you start KOTOR 2 as a Jedi. Only you can't use many of your Force powers, as you've 'lost your connection to the Force' after several years in exile. Just like Obi-Wan did after all those years hiding out in the desert, remember? Oh, wait...

Hmmm. Lost a connection? That's kinda weak but they could make some cool gameplay elements out of the concept. I wonder, is using the Force like working out? If you don't do it in a while do you loose "Force muscle" or something?

4. Seven villains for the price of one.
Never mind that however many Sith there are, up till now there have always been just two Sith Lords - the Dark Lord and his apprentice. In KOTOR 2 you will face a multitude of Sith Lords - I 've even heard the figure put as high as seven. Clearly Obsidian are going for the George Lucas 'quantity equals quality' approach; why bother with one strong, well-written villain when you can have lots of weak ones instead?

Well, I've never bought into the whole "There are always two, the master and the apprentice..." thing that didn't exist before the prequel trilogy. The multiple Lords thing could be done well.

5.Revan's fate.
Although you don't play Revan in the sequel, apparently you will learn what happened to him/her. This is probably the one thing that most people would prefer not to be told, since it may be entirely the opposite of what they imagined. All I can say is, he/she had better not turn out to be the main villain. Or your father.

Okay, I don't like that idea at all. I don't want to know what happens to Revan! That's the beauty of a game like that. It's like the new Matrix movies. I would have been so much happier letting my imagination run wild at the thought of what would happen. I knew they'd win... why'd you have to go and show me in such a stupid way?

Yay for remaining positive!

[Helena]

Hmmm.  Lost a connection?  That's kinda weak but they could make some cool gameplay elements out of the concept.

They won't, though. It'll just be used as a (really weak and unrealistic) excuse for why you don't start the game with your full complement of Force powers.

Well, I've never bought into the whole "There are always two, the master and the apprentice..." thing that didn't exist before the prequel trilogy.  The multiple Lords thing could be done well.

But there were only two in the original trilogy as well. I don't mind having more Sith as in the first game, but with all the in-fighting they do it makes sense that they would need one strong leader - if there were multiple Sith Lords they'd almost certainly spend more time fighting each other than fighting the Jedi. The only way I can see this idea working is if they were rivals and the main character could play them off against each other - but I doubt that this will be the case.

Sorry to be so unrelentingly negative. I want the game to be great as much as you do, but Obsidian have got off to a really bad start with these stupid ideas (at least as far as I'm concerned). I simply can't believe that Bioware would take such a cavalier attitude towards the story and characters they created for the first game.

One more thing: if Obsidian kill off Bastila I will personally suicide-bomb their headquarters.

[Chefelf]

They won't, though. It'll just be used as a (really weak and unrealistic) excuse for why you don't start the game with your full complement of Force powers.

Yeah, you're probably right.

One more thing: if Obsidian kill off Bastila I will personally suicide-bomb their headquarters.

Yeah, you probably will.