[Just your average movie goer]

All your questions shall be answered, J M!

Alright then, here's another question about R2 that comes from this scene. This droid can survive a trip through the freezing vaccuum of space but water will mess him up?

The vaccuum of space doesn't get in his wiring.

Yoda guided Luke down? Then why didn't Yoda just tell Luke to come visit him?

Luke doesn't know Yoda. It seems better to use Obi Wan as a reference - and remember, Yoda still would have wanted to test him. If he invited Luke himself, then he wouldn't have been able to do that so well.

And why didn't the imperials just grab someone and torture them to get the location of the rebel base instead of sending out a zillion and one probes?

Maybe they couldn't find anyone. But the probes seemed to find the base quick enough. They tried torture in the first movie and it didn't work. It took the entire movie to find the rebel base. The probes found it about ten minutes into the film.

AHA! But Lando said that Vader arrived BEFORE the Millennium Falcon and its crew. So Boba Fett had to have known where Han was going even before he left. That's a bit silly. So Vader would have had to bring a tie fighter out of hyper space near the same port the falcon was headed to and have a transport of imperial troops with him. Why did not Han notice this?

You have to remember the Mellenium Falcon was travelling at sublight speed. It would take ages to get there. So Boba Fett is hanging back, watching this thing slugging its way to a small sphere in the distance. And he undoubtedly thinks "I guess this planet is where they're headed." and it's safe bet as it would take years to go to another planet. So he calls Vader and they all get there by lightspeed and have time for several rounds of charades, while they wait for Han to arrive.

Oh no, I distinctly remember Lando, when he was in the falcon escaping, saying that he believed his people had fixed the hyper drive.

And they did. I also distinctly remember Darth Vader asking Admiral Piett if his men deactivated the hyperdrive on the Mellenium Falcon. And I remember R2 telling Threepio that the city central computer told him the hyperdrive had been deactivated. Threepio didn't believe him.

Lando's men fixed it. Vader's boys de-activated it - so it seemed like it wasn't fixed. R2 re-activated it. Why are so many of you shady on the details when it comes to this point? It was all pretty explicit in the movie.

As for the empire's lack of retribution I think thats WAY out of character for the emperor and his men.

Lack of retribution? They stole Lando's city from him and took over the place for themselves, no doubt putting up an Imperial garrison. Seems like pretty heavy retribution to me. No need to blow it up.

Also, it was a great resource. Alderaan, since you mentioned it, may have been a great resource - but it was even better demonstration to all the people in the galaxy about why no-one should mess with the Empire. Remember, Tarkin said Dantooine was too remote to make an effective demonstration? So, I would think that a small mining colony no-one's ever heard of would be even less effective.

No, may as well make some money out of it.



However, I know what you were trying to do. You weren't saying that The Empire Strikes Back was a bad movie. You were saying that if you didn't like the movie and wanted to look for things to pick on, you could find them.

It's a good point - except that there's not much available for criticism.

I pick on Return of the Jedi for an uninteresting, simple resolution of potentially very exciting plot threads. I pick on it for retreading old ideas, simplifying the characters, being terribly inconsistent with the other movies and within itself and its excessive use of Ewoks (ie. having more than zero ewoks in the movie). So it's got lots more to pick on.

The Empire Strikes Back however, leaves the person who wants to pick on it with very little. It is fresh, original and it expands the scope of the story considerably. The characterisation and the journeys the characters go through are very involved and moving. It flows on very nicely from where Star Wars left off and it has, and I am absolutely certain of this, no ewoks.

And this is the difficulty for those trying to pick on it (unless you're George Lucas of course, who hates characterisation and interesting stories).

[Rory]

Ohhh, I just can't resist responding to this one right away. In fact, I'm surprised you guys didn't realise how closely this parrelells Lord of the Rings.

"Um... Boromir!!!

JYAMG, I'm surprised you didn't pick this up given your avatar and that Boromir has already been brought up a few times to describe the way we should have seen the fall of Anakin"

First of all, Boromir is never much of a major character. He doesn't get much development, and you get the idea that he's rash and easily corrupted from the get go. And most importantly, Boromir's death takes place in the first book of Lord of the Rings...

In Star Wars, someone else who is sort of a major character (but more like a supporting character, in my opinion) also dies. His name is Obi Wan Kenobi. So my point still stands. If Lord of the Rings doesnt have to needlessly kill one of the main characters they spend the entire trilogy developing, neither does Star Wars. It just isnt necessary, nor is it particularly interesting, creative, or cool.

[Just your average movie goer]

I understand what you mean - you're talking about main characters as in the people who are around for all three acts.

I guess for a lot of us, The Fellowship of the Ring was a cooler movie than the other two combined (although The Two Towers was the best of the books but it's easier to remember things from the movies). And in the movie, Boromir was a very major player and his heroic death was the centrepiece of the climactic battle that ended the first film. Very moving

But, yes. I get what you're saying.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

What are you guys trying to do, get this thing to 300 posts????

I'll chime in when yoy get to 270.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

To those who mentioned stuff from the prequels in inclusion with the original trilogy, and especially to Mike for presenting even the idea that Lucas was thinking about the OT when he made AOTC,

As far as I know, I don't believe i ever made this statement.

[Just your average movie goer]

Ok, well just make sure that you never do.

[Rory]

"Nice try - except that we already expect they are going to rescue Han, so they should have started with something else, something new and a little bit more important in the larger scale of things. Remember, the rebellion was nearly crushed in the last movie."

But the text scroll says whats happening when the film starts. When the film starts, they are going to rescue Han. They have to! So thats what they put. It would be sort of confusing if something else were happening before Hans rescue.

"I think you missed the point there, Rory. It's not about what takes the death star's place as the centrepiece of the action - it's just something else should be used. And you don't need a massive explosion as your climax. Many movies do just fine without them."

No i think you missed my point. If you can't actually think of something that could replace the death star, then maybe there isn't something, or maybe its just too much to ask, considering its not a big deal anyway. The 2nd Death Star made the final battle a lot cooler; the movie would have suffered without it. The two ideas you came up with would either be too demanding on the techonology of the time (like a massive assault on a planet, involving perhaps hundreds of ships) or not very dramatic at all (yay, we destroyed 3% of their production capacity!).

"
Smuggling IS wrong, that is true. However, working for a guy who feeds innocent women to monsters for his own perverted amusement is a LOT WORSE. Han wasn't an angel, no. But he wasn't a sick, demented evil man either.

And I was surprised that you aren't bothered by how convuluted and stupid the rescue was - but to each, their own. At least that point is there for the perusal of other online visitors to this site."

I can see a lot of possibilities for why Han did business with Jabba.
1. Maybe he just didn't know the Jabba feeds innocent women to the Rancor. I doubt it happens every day.
2. Maybe he knew, but figured "hey, hes a crime boss. He does creepy shit. I either have to deal with it, or quit my job and starve to death. Theres nothing i can do about it."
3. Maybe he had heard rumors, but fooled himself into thinking they were exagerated.
4. Maybe Jabba didnt used to be quite so creepy.
The point is that, when you do business with a crime boss, you are usually doing business with an evil man, someone who has probably killed innocent people, and done who knows how many unspeakable acts. Han must have grapsed this on some abstract level. Whether he knew more is uncertain. We dont know how close his relationship with Jabba was. Did he hang out at his palace or only speak with him from time to time? Did he usually talk to Jabba directly, or mainly through his associates? Its tough to say.

Why would I be surprised at how convaluted the escape plan was? It was no more so convaluted than a lot of the other previous Star Wars plans. As I've already argued, when you get down to it, it didnt really count on all that much (just that Jabba didnt kill the droids, i believe), and from there it was the heroes winging it. Which, quite frankly, is something they seem to do quite a bit.

"I'd suggest that having a new character, who was in no way related to Luke (but this part's optional), would have offered opportunities of a lot more interest."

Introducing a new character out of the blue so late in the trilogy would have been a mistake. The reason for having multiple movies with the same characters is so you can develope Those characters, not introduce new ones to fill in plot holes.

"Well, they looked pretty organised in other movies. And they did seem to take things a lot more seriously too."

I honestly dont remember this scene being that bad. I could imagine that the rebels might joke around a bit, after spending so much time together. If you remember from the first meeting, many of them had just met each other, so of course they wouldnt be joking as much.

"These things are called SPEEDER bikes - and in the movie, they seemed completely incapable of flying at controllable speeds. The chase was kind of cool - but it did not advance the plot in any way. Return of the Jedi is the longest of the original trilogy and there is no way that it should be the case. It staggers me how it takes so much time to say so little."

[Rory]

Sorry, accidentally made another post. Okay, lets see, speeder bikes.

Well, they seemed to be handling the bikes fine, until they had to fly them wicked fast in a big chase. So id assume you can use speeder bikes to go at reasonably safe speeds if you want; dont let the name fool you.

Switching back and forth between quotes is tiring, so im just going to answer all i can remember really quickly.

I've seen the movie quite a few times, and was never bothered by the acting. Han does fine, as does everyone else. Luke's acting gets quite a lot better actually, especially when you compare it to the first movie.

The Emperor was quite competant. He was doing a fine job of being creepy and manipulative, and he almost did succeed in destroying the rebel fleet. YAY.

I dunno, if i were Vader, and my son was being shot by lightning, and I had been through several very emotionally charged moments with him, and he was screaming, and was about to die, and was one of the only people in like forever to give a damn about me and my feelings and my redemption, that might just be enough to do it for me. I can only imagine watching ones son lay dying on the floor might qualify as a life changing experience.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

I dunno, if i were Vader, and my son was being shot by lightning, and I had been through several very emotionally charged moments with him, and he was screaming, and was about to die, and was one of the only people in like forever to give a damn about me and my feelings and my redemption, that might just be enough to do it for me. I can only imagine watching ones son lay dying on the floor might qualify as a life changing experience.

You have to consider that Vader NEVER knew he had a son, until the events of ESB. That had to be a huge emotional shock for him. It was easy for him to be Vader when he knew there was nothing left of Anakin's life. But no comes this son [and daughter} who represented everything good about him.

Interesting that in ESB, Vader is the one that changes the emperor's mind about killing Luke. He is basically trying to change the Emperor's mind in a subtle way..

Watch that scene again, makes you start to wonder whether Vader was in emotional conflict right from the start.

Why was Vader so obsesses with finding Luke, almost up to the point of jeoparidizing the Empires goals?

[Rory]

I agree about the Fellowship of the Ring. It was the better of the three, id say.

[civilian_number_two]

Regarding the whole Jabba crime boss thing:

I thought that the Empire demanded too much on taxes, and was stifling trade so as to build its armies and whatnot, and that smuggling was a kind of economic rebellion. I thought that the pleasant Irish man Lucas had in mind in the first episode wsn't all that bad a guy, that he even like Solo ("I'd always planned for that actor to be just like a marker; even though CGI didn't exist, and all other monster characters in the movies were either guys in costumes or muppets" = bullshit!) This is the Jabba that had existed in the screenplay and had made it into the Marvel comics series as a biped with a face like a catfish, so I had an impression of him before I saw the movie (I didn't see STAR WARS until it had been out for a year, but I had read the screenplay and the comic book adaptation). Marvel had also done a couple of other stories involving catfish-head Jabba, so I had an impression of him going in to JEDI, albeit a necessarily incorrect one. I was surprised when the Jabba of JEDI turned out to be this intrinsically evil being; makes you not mind that the Empire was working so hard to keep his kind out of business.

I don't think that the change made to Jabba from STAR WARS cut scene to JEDI is necessarily bad, but it came along with the same sort of thinking that had Greedo shoot first.

[Rory]

I thought that the Empire demanded too much on taxes, and was stifling trade so as to build its armies and whatnot, and that smuggling was a kind of economic rebellion. I thought that the pleasant Irish man Lucas had in mind in the first episode wsn't all that bad a guy, that he even like Solo...

But if he wasn't so bad a guy, why did he send a bounty hunter to either capture or kill Han Solo? (I understand that the new releases sort of mess with what happens, but I'd rather not talk about them, if its okay with you) If they were just going to have a friendly chat, and, say, work out a payment plan, you'd think Han wouldn't mind just talking to Jabba about it. And then, in The Empire Strikes Back, why did Jabba have a bounty out on Han's head? It seems like Jabba just isn't really that nice a guy; he's an evil crime lord.

I don't think that the change made to Jabba from STAR WARS cut scene to JEDI is necessarily bad, but it came along with the same sort of thinking that had Greedo shoot first.

Its interesting that you say this, because Just Your Average Movie Goer had commented earlier about how Jabba being evil reflects badly on Han, yet this change to the movie had the opposite effect. Han turns into a goodie goodie who shoots only in self defense. I think the pre Greedo, post Jabba (though really, it seems pretty obvious that Jabba isn't so hot from the get go) Han paints a more interesting picture of Han, as someone who (at least initially) is more concerned with helping himself and those he is close with (like Chewbacca) then serving the common good. He's fine with shooting first if it means saving his own skin, and he has no qualms with dealing with low life skum if it lines his own pockets. At the same time, one gets the impression he would risk his own life, ship, and fortune to save someone who he cares about; if Chewy were in trouble, I can only imagine he would risk life and limb saving him.

[barend]

Rory...

In fact, I'm surprised you guys didn't realise how closely this parrelells Lord of the Rings.

I already did a point by point analysis of LOTR v ANH, and TTT v ESB.
it was very long and I have posted it on other bordes upsetting many...

i can't be bothered finding them so here they are again just for you...

There’s a bit of role swapping between characters but...

If you compare the story of the LOTR books to the SW:OT you'll see...

First installment:
1.a young hero is suddenly in possession of something belonging to the enemy, who needs to regain it. (It is given to him by a relative).
2.you have this young guy taken out of his simple farm like life by an old bearded man with powers.
3.the 'dark lord sends his elite troops out to our young heros’ home.
4.our young hero is directed to a bar, where types from all over come to meet up, drink and so forth.
5.at this place our young friend meets an older and experienced traveler sitting in a dark corner.
6.this stranger agrees to take him to where he needs to deliver this item he is in possession of. (He takes him out just as the dark lords' men attack).
7.the place to where the item is taken is not where it can be left, so our young hero must take it further and be part of the fight.
8.on their way the group must enter an enormous structure, even though they don't want to.
9.while in there, and after fighting the inhabitants, the older and wiser leader with all the powers falls in battle against a dark foe. (Funnily enough this death somehow makes the old guy more powerful).
10.the rest escape, our hero is quite upset.
11.they meet up with other allies, living in a nice woodland area that is well protected.
12. Here our heroes are given items to assist in their upcoming fight against some rather large numbers. The loss is great but our friends win the battle.

That’s just the first installment. do you want more???
(Was I describing ANH or FOTR above??? you tell me)...

then there was this:

Installment 2.
(Empire strikes Back v The Two Towers)

01.our young hero decides to continue his trip on his own and leaves the group except for his trusty companion.

02.soon after leaving everyone he ends up in a dank place and meets a creepy little (almost reptile) guy with barley any hair and big eyes who has been watching them (a guy who has been alive for a few hundred years).

03.after some argument (mostly with the companion) he takes them through the swamp offering to lead them to where/who they have to get to.

04. the creepy little guy tastes our heros rations and spits it out complain about how it is insufficient and not the kind of food he eats.

05.the little weird guy leads him to a cave and lets him go in. There is something sinister waiting inside for him…

{Meanwhile…}

06.Our older hero (the one met in the bar, who took our young hero part of the way on his journey) travels to a place where an old ally is. The man they seek is the leader of the area.

07.The leader of this area is under the control of the bad guys and makes decisions based on what the bad guys want.

08. the leader of this area brakes free of the evil influence and knowing that there are large numbers of the enemies men on the way, he evacuates the city.

09.some of our separated friends are reunited.

10. we leave this middle installment with a really significant ‘to be continued’ feel, and someone paralyzed (disarmed and covered head to toe some sort of cocooning material) .

Once again another very brief run over the story, but you get the idea…

hmmm… do you think I’ll be able to find any similarities between
RETURN OF THE KING and
RETURN OF THE JEDI

I wonder…
???

so, be suprised no more...

I pulled that one out ages ago. but i'm glad someone else noticed!!!

[barend]

oh, and hoffman, JYAMG covered most of what I wanted to...

however...

Alright then, here's another question about R2 that comes from this scene. This droid can survive a trip through the freezing vaccuum of space but water will mess him up?

we was fine in the water....

it was after he had spent some time in stomach acid, then launched several yards that there was a problem

Yoda guided Luke down? Then why didn't Yoda just tell Luke to come visit him?

the other thing is to remember... that in film, characters say call me, but don't say the number... it's just something you don't need to do. assumptions for the unssen are acceptable.

do you honestly think that people who hate ESB would suddenly change there mind if Obiwan had stood there and gone "now, to get there.. you head out to where alderan used to be, keep going til you hit Kashyyyk, then turn right, till you pass manaan, now if you get to Yavin, you've gone too far... but you can't miss it. now the coordinates are A27, L149... there's no landing pad as such, but theres a clearing at A27, L148... hmmm, you gonna remember that? ah, fuck it! I'll just use the force to put in your X-Wing Navicom!!! have a nice Coma!!! say hi, to Han."

and yes, if Darth Vader was My dad, I'd be like "COOL"!
and expect alot of presents to make up for the lost hand...

[Supes]

First of all, Boromir is never much of a major character. He doesn't get much development, and you get the idea that he's rash and easily corrupted from the get go. And most importantly, Boromir's death takes place in the first book of Lord of the Rings...

In Star Wars, someone else who is sort of a major character (but more like a supporting character, in my opinion) also dies. His name is Obi Wan Kenobi.

Man this has been tough to catch up on. Only been able to check in every couple of days properly so this particular thread has posed a challenge. But here's my little bit in the action.

That was the point I was making. You asked for a major character that died and I proposed Boromir as in the first movie he was indeed a major character. Now most of us had read the book prior to vieing the film so we already knew that Boromir was going to die. But for anyone that was not aware of this it certainly would have been viewed as a major characer being killed from the series. And as JYAMG pointed out this was also a very moving sequence of events.

I disagree that he is not a major character. He is not a major character in terms of the trilogy, but through the first movie he definitely qualifies as main character. The reference you make to Obi-Wan was something I was going to come back to in a follow up post, but haven ot had the chance until now. I'd planned on quoting Barend's post about the lay-over that can be done, but he's now mentioned it so thanks very much B.

I actually agree with you that it is not necessary that a main character be killed unless it is goingto further the plot or add a specific feeling to a film. I thought the death of Obi-Wan in Star Wars was enough to fulfil that need.

Now to ROTJ itself. I'm not going to break it down point by point as that has been done to death, but I will make a couple of personal observations around the Luke/Leia/Han issues.

Firstly, let me say that I like ROTJ. I believe it is the least of the three films, but I still get a great deal of pleasure out of watching it. After reading this thread though I may be a little more critical (we'll see I suppose on next viewing).

I first saw this film when in 1986. I was 13 years old. "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." It's been stated by a few people that it was silly to make Leia "the other". Well when I watched this movie I hadn't read the screenplays, the anotated works of, the etc etc of George Lucas. I had just seen the previous two films. And it was apparent to me at 13 in ESB that when Yoda said there is another he was talking about Leia. No major analysis required. She was going to be it!

Now I will agree that it certainly could have worked well had some other people's visions been fulfilled by ROTJ if a mystery character had in fact been the other, but that's not the way it played out. Although, I'm not a great fan of the Leia being Luke's sister, it certainly did fit in with my conception of the "force" at that time. If Leia was the other then she woud likely be strong in the force. It's not that big a jump to make her Luke's sister. He has been identified as one of the last hopes and he is the son of Skywalker. We hadn't been introduced to any other really powerful Jedi apart from Yoda or Obi-Wan. Now I'm sure that the mystery other could have been one of their offspring, but that would change the whole dynamic and open up a hell of a lot more questions. Great if you were intending another three movies afterwards, but I don't believe that for a minute and I didn't know at the time that Lucas had claimed to have a 9 movie series planned so I wasn't expecting it either.

The Leia being Luke's sister as I said made sense to me. Was it the most brilliant plot device, no, but for me viewing the movie then and to a large extent still now, it makes sense with the framework presented in ESB. Yes it solves the love triangle in a very basic way, and it could have been more dramatic. But as I said, it made sense to me that Leia was "the other" and that the purging of the Jedi had left a big gap in the power potential Jedi realms. It was a pretty basic step for me to pick up the offspring aspect. Luke is powerful, there is another, it's Leia, she's another hope, power full jedi seen thus far - only one has a kid, most logical step is that Leia is going to be Luke's sister. Taking this point the only other possible choice would be an offspring of Yoda as Obi-Wan certainly would have been aware if he'd had children. Yoda makes the statement, there is another, so it could have been him hiding a little mini-muppet who was going to clean house. But again, less likely or logical given what we had been presented with.

Biggest dissappointment was indeed the "nameless" furry balls of help! I would have liked to have seen a more adult take on this battle. Even as a 13 year old I was dissappointed with how Endor turned out. When I later heard it was originally scripted with Wookies I could see the advantage of their inclusion over the "nameless ones".

It certainly appears that many of the opinions voiced are based a great deal around the additional information that people were privy to or had learned over time. I enjoyed ROTJ when it was released and I still enjoy it now. I can recognise that there are obvious weaknesses now, particularly with all the evidence presented, but when I view this film I am still able to dissaccosiate and "reason like a child." It is not that adults movie that ESB was, but I was lucky and saw it as a kid.

There certainly was a great potential missed in hindsight with ROTJ, and I can acknowledge that, but I still greatly enjoy this movie and will contiue to do so. The upside is it certainly didn't end up being of PT quality and for that I am ever greatful.