[civilian_number_two]

Movie goer- I think that's a point I can actualyl argue. How can you deny that Lucas put effort into this? Did you figure he would be Leia's brother? Lucas had to actually think of that. He wanted an idea that would add some drama to the trilogy and maybe make Luke a more concrete character as well as get him out of the way of Han and Leia's romance. So he produced a genuine plot device. That takes effort.

Nonsense. That was the whole point of my post: out of story conferences for EMPIRE came the idea that Luke might have a long-lost twin sister, a Jedi who whould come into the story later. This idea Lucas had going in to the treatment of JEDI. Leia became Luke's sister, minus all the cool stuff about being a Jedi knight or having any force powers or it being interesting in any way, in the rough draft to JEDI. He grabbed an idea from the previous movie's story conference, as well as the entire conflict. The Death Star he borrowed from the first movie, the Wookiee planet from the Holiday Special became the Ewok planet (Wookie spelled backwards, sorta), and so on.

It did not take effort; it took laziness.

And yes Rory, and side-swapping jyamg (arrr... from hell's heart!), it is common for a writer to make stuff up as he goes. It's creative; it's exciting. My complaint about Lucas isn't that he did this. It's that he did it while insisting that he had always had nine stories already written. No! Six! No! My kids help me write them! No, the process is very organic!

Whatever. I see no difference between the Lucxas of JEDI and the Lucas of TPM, except that the Lucas of JEDI was working with beoved characters and situations and therefore the movie comes off better, Boba Fett, Tarzan yell and Sarlac burp notwithstanding.

[Jordan]

PS: Any Christians wanna discuss the Bible?

<chirp chirp> <chirp chirp> <<<<<<------------------- (Crickets) 

I would, but you seem to know more than me. And even if I think I'm holding a good debate, you can bring up stuff that requires me to search for answers. If I can get my pal on here, he could debate you better than I. I'm better at evolutionary debates and all that fun stuff.

I've read this entire topic now. It seems to me that people are backing off how they initially felt about ROTJ. I won't name names, but people here did love the movie couple months ago.

I was one of the people who actually liked it. Untill I came here and read all the rants. After giving it thought, it is a weak movie. I still like it, however it's horribly inconsistent with the rest of the movies.

Side note:

I just watched the Seventh Seal ------ What was that all about. Worst ending in the world. I hate those stupid german exestenialist movies. I watched another one last week about some rich 50 year old man who marries a 17 year old girl. She becomes bored of her upscale life and starts and affair with a young lad. The old man finds out, eventually, and kills the young man. There are hardly any emotions conveyed through out this black and white film from the early ninties. I forgot the name of the flick.

Yada Yada Yada, some big words, blah blah.... german directors suck. End of story.

[Just your average movie goer]

and side-swapping jyamg (arrr... from hell's heart!)

I haven't swapped sides, you strange vindictive fiend. I thought Rory gave a good justification for his views, even though it seems strange that anyone could give a damn about defending this film.

I still think Return of the Jedi is a shitty movie and I think this is where Lucas really went off the rails. Ewoks are still inexcusable in my opinion - and making Luke and Leia into siblings was a really lame resolution, that didn't bring anything interesting to the story.

However, what I appreciated was that after making some questionable comments earlier, Rory posted probably the most intelligent defence any of the Return of the Jedi lovers had posted so far - the really shitty plot devices, and character make-overs of Return of the Jedi didn't bother him. He still enjoyed the movie.

That's a hell of a lot better than the way Mike hails everything Lucas does in Return of the Jedi as a stroke of genius - especially that shit about how if two people have bad chemistry together, then the most logical thing to do is make them brother and sister.

No, my respect for Rory does not come out of respect for his views on Return of the Jedi. It came from the fact that he put up a good counter-argument to something I had posted.

No-one's ever put good counter-arguments against my posts before! Most of them, especially if written by our mutual friend Mike, have been shit and so far beyond lame, it wasn't funny. I wish more people from the Return of the Jedi lovers' camp had the ability to write proper counter-arguments.


So, you can put away that dagger, you war-mongering devil, Civilian. I HAVE NOT switched sides. I merely gave my respects to the first Return of the Jedi lover to ever come forward with a proper counter-argument for his views.

I still think Return of the Jedi is shit. I don't think it's worthy of the name Star Wars (and I don't think by saying that, I'm taking it too far). I think it completely screwed over the character of Darth Vader and threw away many opportunities to make a great saga, worthy of succeeding The Empire Strikes Back.

The Empire Strikes Back made the Star Wars universe much larger. Return of the Jedi turned it into a small parking lot. I think the entire stupid film is a wasted opportunity.

However, I have learned to respect the fact that people are entitled to watch it and enjoy it if they so desire. I don't understand it. It seems stupid to waste two hours of your life, watching Ewoks on parade - but it's their choice.

And besides, I'm bored with this crap and sick of arguing the matter with people who don't seem like they're ever going to see things our way.

Incidentally, I should challenge you to a duel for calling me a traitor. I'm one of the highest ranking officers of the Return of the Jedi haters, I'll have you know. Hell, I've been grilling it for long enough now.

However, since you are one of the finest fighters for our cause, I will let that insult slide.

- Movie Goer

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 14 June 2004 - 07:03 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Damn you, Civilian, damn you. I thought I could now walk away from this neverending argument with the Return of the Jedi lovers - but your terrible insinuation that I had become one of them has stirred me up again and now, not more than ten minutes since my last post, I find myself back here.... damn you.

Some people are saying that Lucas did put effort into Return of the Jedi. Now, I'm going to use their own arguments against them - debate style.

Rory, who is the best equipped of the Return of the Jedi lovers to handle himself in a debate, said himself that it doesn't matter how much effort was put into a film - we must judge the film on its own merits. Okay, I will.


A quick overview of where Return of the Jedi fucked up.

The opening text scroll.

Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. This is not just a really bad run-on sentence, it is the first line that opens the movie. And compared to It is a period of civil war. (Star Wars) and It is a dark time for the rebellion. (The Empire Strikes Back), it is pretty weak.

The second death star.

We had a death star already in Star Wars. It served its purpose well. It was blown up. We saw it - the explosion looked big and pretty. We don't need to see it again. In bringing back the Death Star, Lucas was ripping off his own ideas. I'm sure that some Return of the Jedi lovers will say that we must look at the movie in its own right - and ignore the fact that this is the second death star we've seen. Wrong. It is the third movie of a trilogy, and must be viewed as part of the whole story. Seeing the death star again is too repetitive. Also it is impractical. It couldn't have been built so fast.

In addition to this, The Empire Strikes Back proved that the Imperial Fleet was far more effective and frightening. The Imperial Fleet was not utilised well at all in this movie. If Lucas wanted something big to blow up at the end of the movie, that's fine. But there are alternatives to death stars. I would suggest a shipyard where new Star Destroyers are being manufactured - or an attack on Coruscant. That would be much more interesting.


Han's rescue.

This was stupid on so many levels. Firstly the location was wrong. Whether or not Jabba was a slug (and he would have been MUCH more effective if he wasn't), he shouldn't have lived on Tatooine in a rusty palace with concrete floors. This is the head of a galactic wide smuggling ring. You need to see ships, the location has to look like a functional base of operations. People need to be coming in and out.

The rancor shouldn't have been there. And even if it was, Jabba shouldn't have fed innocent dancing girls to it. Why? Because Han used to work for him - and having Jabba be such a horrible creature reflects badly on Han's own character.

Boba Fett shouldn't have been there. He did not work for Jabba. It was clear in The Empire Strikes Back that Vader had employed him before - so I would say that the guy gets around. I also don't see why someone who is just after money, would stick around and risk his life in that sail-barge fight. There was nothing in it for him - he shouldn't have been there.

The rescue was the most pointlessly elaborate, stupid rescue ever on film. Let's look at it. Okay, Lando is there to check the place out. Got it. Luke gives Jabba his droids. What the hell? How is going to get them back? Okay, never mind... there's enough problems to worry about as it is....

Leia comes in and gives Chewbacca to Jabba, who throws him in prison. Now, that's four guys Luke has to rescue if he includes the droids. Then Leia thaws Han out - hell, Lando could have done that ages ago - and she gets captured. So now Luke has five of his friends to rescue. Good plan so far.

Fortunately, Jabba doesn't kill any of them - even Han, who owed him a lot of money - which seems strange seeing he killed a dancing girl earlier just because she didn't want to give him a lap dance....

... and conveniently, he takes them all out for a cruise over the sand-dunes, and everything about this Tatooine looks remarkably different from the Tatooine of Star Wars, for some strange reason (perhaps because it wasn't filmed in Tunisia... that might have had something to do with it).

And there, R2 chucks Luke his lightsaber and everything is solved. Good plan - Luke was very clever, figuring out that Jabba would take them out to the dune sea and leave him on a gangplank with his hands free so he could get his lightsaber. Does that not seem in the least bit contrived to you Return of the Jedi lovers?

And of course, Boba Fett dies in a stupid comical way that ends in a burp joke.

Also in the course of this, we had lots of annoying muppets, a stupid song, and Threepio translating stuff for Jabba into English. Can't this protocol droid, fluent in over six million forms of communication, speak Huttese?

What happens on Dagobah.

Firstly, Luke should not have gone to Dagobah again until after the movie. He was on his way to a rebel meeting in ten minutes and he thought, "I might just pop by Dagobah and finish my jedi training. So I might be two minutes late to the meeting."

Then he gets there and Yoda basically tells Luke he doesn't need any more training, despite the fact that he clearly told him in The Empire Strikes Back that he had to complete the training - and there was quite a lot more to be done.

And he tells Luke that he's going to die - and is gone in two minutes. Wow!

And here was something interesting - Yoda said there is another Skywalker. Even if this is his sister and the other hope who was alluded to in the previous movie, this still sounds interesting. So I was still intrigued at this point...

Then Luke meets Obi Wan who is there on a very literal level and they sit down on a log and chat for hours like two housewives. Obi Wan just answers all of Luke's queries and cops out of lying to Luke about his father with his 'certain point of view' crap. Then Obi Wan tells Luke about his twin sister. Okay, it's still intriguing.

Obi Wan then says a lot of stuff that ends in the line "That is the reason why your sister remains safely annoymous."

"Leia." Luke says right out of the blue, using the name of the only woman in existence he knows - and what are the chances, but he's right - straight out of the box. I mean, come on!

What's really stupid is that other than resolving the love triangle in a really dull way, Lucas does nothing with Leia as the 'other hope' - nothing.

So basically, the idea of there being another hope is redundant and pointless - as was Luke's training. He didn't really need any afterall, it turns out.


The Rebel meeting.

Call this nitpicking if you will, but that was too fucking casual for words. I've seen house warming parties and drinking games that have more formality than that meeting.


Endor.

We spend far too much time there in the movie. The speeder bikes were a real time killer - and in dense forest, I don't think the Imperials would really use transport that travels at 200 kilometres an hour. They're supposed to be intelligent - well at least they were in the previous movies.

Seperating Leia from the others was also a pointless time waster - as they all ended up back together again. Watching this, I almost forgot what the hell the movie was supposed to be about at some points.


The Ewoks.

Lucas said himself that originally, he intended to have wookies. Why the hell didn't he? I could have tolerated wookies fighting storm troopers. It would also have made it more convincing in terms of having the wookies help the rebels. They've been oppressed by the Empire for years and Chewbacca would have been able to talk to them, instead of Threepio - meaning the rebels could have LEFT HIM AND R2 BEHIND, instead of bringing loud, bright shiny metallic objects into the forest that would constantly give their location away to storm trooper patrols.

Random storm trooper - "Hmm... what's that fucking bright golden thing in the middle of the woods? Let's check it out."

Wasted ground battle opportunity.

The Empire Strikes Back opened with a ground battle. It was amazing. It was more amazing in many ways than the various space battles. However, in Return of the Jedi, the ground battle is reduced to a silly skermish with comical primitive sticks and stones tripping up Imperial technology.

An entire legion of the Emperor's best troops.

Lets look at the Emperor's best troops. They came into the bunker and rounded the rebels up. One officer stood still, with his gun trained on Han, and did nothing as Han picked up a box and threw it at him. The force of the blow managed to make him go flying two metres backwards over a railing and plummet to his death. If I had been in his position, and had told Han to freeze, and Han went and picked up a big box right in front of me, I would have shot him.

Okay, and now problem two. Why didn't they just kill all the rebels? What was the point of capturing them alive and walking them outside? They didn't have anything that the Imperials could possibly want and besides, the entire alliance was about to be wiped out. Stupid.

The Emperor.

Everyone seems to praise Ian McDiarmind as a great actor and the Emperor as a sinister villain. I am sorry, but on the version of the movie I saw, I saw a wizened little man who SLOUCHED in his chair like a lazy fat toad and cackled incessantly. His voice sounded like he was trying to impersonate Dracula but it was a poor imitation. Also, he was really stupid. He let the rebels know where his death star was? Why didn't he give them a false location and blow the crap out of them there? Instead he put his new station at risk, as well as his own life.

No, he was not a sinister villain. He was a stupid old fool with bad posture.

Darth Vader.

Darth Vader was mellowed out in this movie so much, he was nothing but a pale immitation of the villain we had seen in the previous movies. Let's compare Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back with Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi.

In The Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader had free reign of every man, ship and other resource in the Empire and he used them ruthlessly. He almost annihilated the rebel alliance completely in a devasting battle and drove them into the furthest reaches of the galaxy, scattered and demoralised.

He killed a Admiral Ozzle, when he was in a completely different part of the ship, without lifting a finger or taking a pause in his conversation with Admiral Piett. He took deflected laser blasts off his hand, smashed the crap out of Luke in the best display of the dark side's power ever seen before or since and took over Cloud City.

The guy was one hell of a villain.

But in Return of the Jedi, he has gone soft - and this is way before his redemption. He becomes the Emperor's monkey-boy and yes-man and he makes the dark side look puny. "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master." You must obey your master? Where's the power in that, Darth?

He doesn't do anything cool in the movie at all until he kills the Emperor, and honestly, killing the Emperor doesn't look like too much trouble.

How easily the rebels won the space battle.

Admiral Ackbar suddenly says "Hey, let's blow up the Super Star Destroyer." and moments later, it's gone. It's so damn easy - all you have to do is shoot those balls on the bridge and their shields are down. It makes you wonder why the rebels didn't take out the last Star Destroyer years ago - if they are that easy to take out.

The acting.

The acting is SHIT. It is the worst of the Star Wars movies and any time someone writes that Harrison Ford was at his best in this movie, it makes my skin crawl. How the hell can anyone try to defend that performance?

Next time you Return of the Jedi lovers watch your precious movie - look at Han's facial exp​ressions when Leia tells him that Luke is her brother. Yeah, Oscar moment indeed! Terrible, terrible acting.

Darth Vader's funeral pyre.

This could have been a powerful moment, as Luke farewelled the father he never knew.... however, the whole time, Ewoks were yabbering in the background. This kind of screwed the whole scene. Lucas sabotaged his own work here....

but having the stupid, mega-happy ending with Anakin's ghost just two minutes later really takes whatever impact that scene could have had and trivialises it.

Hell, having everyone's ghost there for the party trivialised everything.

"Oh no. My mentor is dead."

"Don't worry. He'll be a ghost in about five minutes so you'll see him again soon."

Wasted opportunities.

We never saw Coruscant. We did not see much in the way of new locales. Wookies would have been so much better than Ewoks. We missed out on having a new and exciting character added to the fray... but lastly, Lucas wasted the opportunity to make another movie as great as The Empire Strikes Back.


Okay, that's all for now. I know it won't change anyone's mind.... but damn you, Civilian for stirring me up and making me go back into this neverending war.

- Movie Goer, High Lord of the Return of the Jedi Haters.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 14 June 2004 - 08:57 AM

[barend]

actually the second death star was 2 inches bigger and had a supper happy fun slide and coke machine in it... so it was the second death star they had to make...

if i had lost the death star... I'd want a second one made...

but i wouldn't have it built in orbit of a planet of little furry munchkins (not without enslaving them and making them do all the work).

I would have built the second one in orbit of Coruscant for better protection... and i would have made several. and have no ducts from the outside leading right into the heart of core (of which i would have covered in a magnetic photonic, energy absorbing alternating defensive matrix of some sort... known as Barendarium plating!)

[Just your average movie goer]

What's really strange about it is that the opening text informs us that this death star is even bigger than the first one. But to my untrained eye, it always appeared to be shitloads smaller. And it was a hell of a lot easier to take out, especially seeing no-one had to worry about having their planet blown up. You could have cut the tension with a knife.... if there actually had been any tension.

[Just your average movie goer]

Oh wait, speaking of no tension, I forgot to mention how dull the stuff involving the death star's shield generator was. Add that to the list of wasted opportunities. Instead of having to figure out a cool plan for taking it out, the rebels find a 'back door' (how considerate of the Empire) - and put a few small charges in... and wola! The shield's down.

I also loved the way that when it blew up, it vaporized several acres of surrounding forest but Han got up just metres away from where it had stood, completely unharmed. Amazing.

[Just your average movie goer]

Incidentally, I've noticed that we're now up over 170 posts on this thread. 200 posts is in sight, guys. Let's make it happen.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

A massive 20 page argument detailing and debunking all the arguments made on ROTJ is in the process of being made.

It will be entitled "In Defense of the Jedi: A Comprehensive look on the criticisms of Return of the Jedi.

i am thinking of turning this into a thesis.

Give me 3 weeks, to collect my thoughts and your as well.

I bet you are looking forward to it jymag?? I know civilian will.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

Whatever. I see no difference between the Lucxas of JEDI and the Lucas of TPM, except that the Lucas of JEDI was working with beoved characters and situations and therefore the movie comes off better, Boba Fett, Tarzan yell and Sarlac burp notwithstanding.

Yet this was the same Lucas that did A New Hope?


What happened there?????

Yet Gary Kurtz has had plenty of input on ROTJ.

So what happens? You just say that Lucas has sole power over a project when it doesn't meat your expectations?

Be consistent

[Mike Mac from NYU]

Proving to someone that ROTJ is a bad movie is like trying to prove to someone that blueberry Pop Tarts taste nasty.

It's a matter of taste and personality.

So I don;t know where civilian has come up with 'Evidence" to prove that ROTJ is an unwatchable movie


JYAMG

You said it yourself on this post that ROTJ isn;t all bad and that it "has some good elements" And that you have watched it more than once!!!!!!!!!!

So why is it such a mental stretch for you to imagine that there are a vast number of competent people that actually like ROTJ. Really!

[Rory]

"The opening text scroll."
Okay, sure, the opening text scroll isnt amazing. But it is pretty much starting off where the other movie left off. It makes sense that they'd try to rescue Han; he was friggin captured.

"The Second Death Star"
A shipyard, in my opinion, would just be a step down. Blowing up a shipyard might make for a fun X Wing mission, but hardly makes for an exciting final scene in a movie. An attack on Coruscant might have been interesting, but I'm at a bit of a loss to figure out how it would have worked out. It probably would have involved quite a few regular star destroyers, which would have been actually rather difficult to do, considering the technology Lucas had to work with, and maybe even a little lacking in oomph. There certainly wouldn't have been the same sense of impending doom and urgency to deal with. The rebels needed to destroy that Star Destroyer ASAP before it became fully functional and pretty f'ing invinciple. Furthermore, the Death Stars Laser already worked, meaning the rebels had mere minutes to destroy the Death Star before their fleet was completely decimated.

The Second Death Star made for a truly dynamic final battle, combining capital ship combat, starfighter combat, the tactical presense of an armed space station, and a land battle.

"Hans Rescue"
I don't have a big problem with the location. We pretty much suspect that Jabba lives on Tatooine from what we see in the first movie.

I dont have a problem with him being a slug so much as how he ended up looking. The technology was a little behind the times in this department.

Han is not a perfect little angel, and there is no reason to think he is. Hes a smuggler! Smuggling is wrong! The fact that he works for a crime boss (most of whom are pretty ruthless) shouldn't really shock or surprise us.

Some parts of jabbas palace were a little lame, and some parts were pretty fun. I don't see a big problem with the rescue plan; it doesnt seem any more convaluted than the Death Star Escape, or even the assault on the First Death Star. In Star Wars, plans sort of have a way of working out. Furthermore, this plan didnt seem to work out perfectly. I believe leia intended to rescue Han and get the Hell out, right?

Also, Jabba strikes me as the type of guy who wouldnt just kill people outright. Thats not much fun. He'd feed them to his many pets. I mean Jesus, theyve got to eat. Luke probably counted on something like this.

But Im not going to try to defend this rescue plan too much; basically it seemed like a lot of the stuff in Star Wars. They just went with what worked. Luke knew that Jabba probably wouldnt kill his droids. I believe those were the only ones he absolutely counted on getting caught. Thats all that really matters. Everything else just sort of happened. And parts of it were pretty fun. In particular, I think the Sarlak made for a pretty neat battle. Sand skiffs, and sarlaks, combined with a lightsaber and a bunch of blasters isnt bad at all.

"What happens on Dagobah."

Luke returns to Dagaobah a very different person. He has lost his hand, faced his father, constructed his own lightsaber, and presumably trained on his own like a bitch in heat. I would imagine this is why Yoda tells him he doesn't need any more training. Also, since Yoda is dying, he cant exactly train him anyway.

I actually thought Yodas death was rather touching.

The time span is a little fuzzy; id have to check to make sure, but its really not clear how long before they attack the death star and what have you.

Honestly, Leia makes the most sense for Lukes sister, and it makes sense that Luke would have figured it out. Even though their relationship doesnt signifigantly affect the story (neither does han and leias relationship) it really does seem to tie things together, while also opening up a lot of possibilities in future books and in the prequels (possibilities that probably wont be well explored, but thats the fault of the prequels, not ROTJ). Finally, it provides a sense of hope to the audience; even if Luke were to fall to the dark side, as seems a very real possibility for a first time viewer (all knowledge of how things usually turn out aside), the rebellion still has some chance, albeit a small one.

Ill finish with the other parts after lunch!

[Despondent]

I like blueberry pop-tarts. But they ruined it with the frosting. Too sweet for my taste

Death Star 2- couldn't they have named it something else? Doom star? Black Dwarf? Super Star? The Death Star Strikes Back?

Torture- If they'd tortured R2 the same as my beloved power droid, would the light saber have fallen out and revealed the plot?

of course not. Lucas wrote the sand skiff rescue first and worked backwards.

About the Saber. Empire showed us you don't have to be a Jedi to operate one. Other than his father's amazing skills with creating droids from nothing (Given the many alphabet/prefix-3p0's out there I still have to believe there are kits available,) where does luke get the knowledge to build one? Is it a Freakin' Jedi Merit badge or what? The opening crawl doesn't fill in this detail. besides, what happened to Ben's saber? did it ghost with him? I'd be surprised if boba didn't have a light saber to be honest with you.

[Rory]

"The Rebel Meeting"
The Rebels, when you get right down to it, are a terrorist group; they aren't a strict military organization. They might be becoming one, but they aren't there yet. Furthermore, I have no doubt that most of the rebels in that briefing were good friends, and knew each other quite well; joking around makes assault on the death star bearable. (I honestly dont remember this scene being all that super casual; id have to see it again)

"Endor"
The thing is, Endor doesnt really take up a signifigant part of the film.

The speeder bikes were apparently fine for normal transportation; when it comes to a high speed chase... well high speed chases are dangerous. What do you want?

The spider bike chase was actually pretty cool, in my opinion.

"Ewoks"
Yes Wookies would have been better. Oh well. The ewoks defeating the imperials was pretty lame.

"Ground Battle"
I think this deserves to be under Ewoks. The ground battle was lame because of the ewoks. In fact, this is the only really bad thing about the ewoks. Their presence in the area, by itself, didnt really hurt much.

"An Entire Legion of the Empires Best Troops"
Did you see the Death Star scene in A New Hope? Did you see those Storm Troopers firing and missing and firing and missing? How about the Storm Troopers in An Empire Strikes Back? As I recall, there was a lot of firing and missing in that too... For highly trained troops, youd think they could hit someone every once in a while... huh...

This is a problem with the Star Wars movies, as a whole, not ROTJ. But its not a really big deal; it happens in tons of action movies. If the enemies had as good or better aim and reflexes than the protagonists, the protagonists would probably die.

"The Emperor"
Im going to have to disagree with you here. The Emperor was creepy and evil. His voice was creepy and evil. What more do you want out of a creepy evil emperor?

"Darth Vader"
This movie did some things really well. Darth Vader was one of them. In this movie, Darth Vader ceases to be a passionless villain; he becomes someone with depth, someone who must choose between two allegiances, between his son and his master, between the light side and the dark, etc.

The scenes with the Emperor, Luke, and Vader are some of the most emotional, and touching in the entire movie.

"Lukes brush with the Dark Side"
The confrontation on the death star and the lightsaber duel that follows is fucking amazing. The dialogue is good, theres tons of emotion, we really feel like Luke is genuinely tempted by the dark side, we aren't sure how its going to turn out, etc. Its good times.

"Acting"
I have no problems with the acting in this movie. In some places, particularly in the above scene, its top notch, some of the best acting in the trilogy.

"The Space Battle"
The Space Battle was one of the coolest battles ever. Its a full on attack, with capital ships fighting on both sides. Theres tons of action, tons of explosions, and a bunch of interesting twists.

"The Funeral Pyre"
The ending is one part where I didnt really mind the Ewoks. The music was fun. Seeing the rebels celebrate in the trees was also pretty cool. Combined with the funeral pyre, it made for a pretty bittersweet moment.

"The Ghosts"
Whats so bad about the ghosts? It seems fitting that Anakin would become a ghost. I think this was a rather touching moment.

"Wasted Opportunities"
It would truly have been a wasted opportunity if Lucas hadn't made a third movie at all. All in all, the series benefits more than it is hurt by this movie, simply because ROTJ is a good movie. Its has some shaky parts, and it certainly could have been better, but all in all it is a fine end to a fine trilogy.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

"The Ghosts"
Whats so bad about the ghosts? It seems fitting that Anakin would become a ghost. I think this was a rather touching moment.

You had f'ing ghosts appear in Empire Strikes back. Obi-Wan twice!!! And you didn't seem to mind!!! :angry:

The Emperor"
Im going to have to disagree with you here. The Emperor was creepy and evil. His voice was creepy and evil. What more do you want out of a creepy evil emperor

?

The Emperor was everything I expected him to bee. Any thing else would have been inappropriate or lame.

"The Space Battle"
The Space Battle was one of the coolest battles ever. Its a full on attack, with capital ships fighting on both sides. Theres tons of action, tons of explosions, and a bunch of interesting twists.

It was actually the first full fledged space battle in Star Wars!! In ANH it was just a bunch of fighters entering into a trench. In fact the whole battle in A New Hope is unrealistic.

"An Entire Legion of the Empires Best Troops"
Did you see the Death Star scene in A New Hope? Did you see those Storm Troopers firing and missing and firing and missing? How about the Storm Troopers in An Empire Strikes Back? As I recall, there was a lot of firing and missing in that too... For highly trained troops, youd think they could hit someone every once in a while... huh...

Did everyone forget that there was a Rebel commando unit that went with Luke, Han and Leia. And the fact that they didn't disapear and were still their during the Ewok Battle. Remember the guy that handed Han the explosive charge. Who was that. A rebel commando??
So the battle on Endor was between a combination of rebel commandos, A captured AT-ST and about a thousand trained experienced Ewok warriors with the Jungle as their advantage.

You know what's hypocritical? If it were Wookies and they did the same thing using primitive weapons to defeat Imperials, jyamg and others would not have said a damn thing. They just hate small bear like creatures.

Well don't fret, jyamg. your gonna get your wish of what the Endor battle would look like with Wookies. Because that's exactly what's gonna be shown in Episode III. You'll see exactly how that would turn out.

"Acting"
I have no problems with the acting in this movie. In some places, particularly in the above scene, its top notch, some of the best acting in the trilogy.

Agreed. ROTJ probably has the best acting of the whole trilogy. ANH acting was awful in many ways.

"Ewoks"
Yes Wookies would have been better. Oh well. The ewoks defeating the imperials was pretty lame.

Although it would make the Imperials loss less astounding if a bunch of full sized Wookies. You actually would not be surprised that the Imperials could lose. The fact that a bunch of teddy bears could defeat the Imperials is surprisin, you have to admit. It's gonna be hard for a lot of people to accept but, the whole Endor scene would not have worked with Full-grown humanoids. I know a lot of people will not accept it, but just think about.

This is a problem with the Star Wars movies, as a whole, not ROTJ. But its not a really big deal; it happens in tons of action movies. If the enemies had as good or better aim and reflexes than the protagonists, the protagonists would probably die.

Hell this is a problem with ACTION movies on a whole!!! The Good guys don;t die in movies!!!