[Helena]

Nice to meet you, civilian.

Like you, I'm kind of sitting on the fence over RotJ. I thought it was weak in many ways, but I certainly don't hate it as much as some people here. I actually thought that the scenes with Luke, Vader and the Emperor were pretty good, and Vader's sacrifice made a satisfying ending to the trilogy - too bad the rest of it had to centre around the Ewok vs. Stormtrooper battle.

[Just your average movie goer]

Welcome back, arch-rival Civilian. It was good to hear another sane voice on the issue of Return of the Jedi. Too many people think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread (when of course, the greatest thing since sliced bread is that European/American/UK/Japanese electric socket adaptor).

I think it practically has no fantasy. There is certainly no romance and it seems like a bit of a mockery to follow up a powerful epic with a soap opera, filled with gratuitous teddy bear scenes.

Maybe it is worthy of the name "Star Wars" and perhaps I did go too far. But it's a pretty average film and not a film I can sit through in its entirety. I stand by what I said earlier - "Real adults do not watch movies in which teddy bears go 'Yub yub!'".

However, I have given up trying to convert the infidels. If they are happy watching sub-par films, then who am I to stop them? I'm just grateful that I myself do not suffer from such poor taste and can have a playlist that I am not ashamed to share with other people.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

"Real adults do not watch movies in which teddy bears go 'Yub yub!'".

Actually they do. Anthropologist watch movies like that all the time. Yub-Yub is from !Kung Bushmen speak. As are a lot of the sounds and language the Ewoks use.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

"Too many people think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread (when of course, the greatest thing since sliced bread is that European/American/UK/Japanese electric socket adaptor)."

Nobody ever said it was the greates movie ever. All I or any of the ROTJ lovers have said is that we enjoyed ROTJ and find it a suitable inclusion in the Star Wars trilogy.

I have said before that I agree with those that would rank ROTJ the third best of the OT films, even though I rank it second IMO


What we don't agree is this concept that it is a HORRIBLE movie or that it is wone of the worst movies.

"I think it practically has no fantasy. There is certainly no romance and it seems like a bit of a mockery to follow up a powerful epic with a soap opera, filled with gratuitous teddy bear scenes."

Actually the whole romance between Leia nad Han in ESB is very much like a soap opera. Hell the whole cliffhanger with a person revelaing himself to be the young boys father is actually TYPICAL of your average soap opers. Hell ESB is more of a soap opera than ROTJ or ANH.

"Luke I must confess" (tense music} "I am your father} {climax music}

Announcer:

"Will Luke kill his father????[music} Tune in next time for .....AS THE GALAXY TURNS.... Sponsored by Alderaan Detergent...


"Maybe it is worthy of the name "Star Wars" and perhaps I did go too far. But it's a pretty average film and not a film I can sit through in its entirety. I stand by what I said earlier - "Real adults do not watch movies in which teddy bears go 'Yub yub!'"."

Although some people would argue that Real Adults don't watch movies with "short hooded, midgets with glowing eyes, thats say "Oontoneee" all the time.

However, I have given up trying to convert the infidels.

I should say for the record that I have never called jyamg & civilian "INFIDELS"
for saying that they hate ROTJ. Yet they have chose too call all the people who like ROTJ "0infidels" for liking the movie. I respect thier opinion as well as they should respect mine and anyone elses by not resorting to calling ANYONE an infidel

I disagree with civilian on several points on this site, but only once did I insult him by calling him "Bill O'Reilly" . I apologises and have never crossed that line. I respect civilians opinion and consider him a very knowledgeable source of information on this site. And fully admit to him being the elder "film-maker" on this forum. Still does't mean I will agree with him, but I respect him

Nobody should be trying to convert aybody to anything (damn there I go with my triple negatives again}.... , or is that correct } That is the problem with religion and politics these days. Nobody is just satisfied or can appreciate the fact that other people might have opinions that differ from theirs. And might also appreciate that those opinions may have a ring of truth to them.

WTF!! I came to this site to bash the PT films. Not defend or bash the OT films. Damnit, Lucas is driving a wedge between us PT haters!!!!! C'mon guys lets go to the PT bashing

Like, how the hell is Lucas going to through Bail Organa into this whole mess that is episode III

[Mike Mac from NYU]

2 ) Mike praised Helena as the only one in this forum to recognize that the STAR WARS films needed romance and fantasy. I would like to cry foul; long ago, but not so long that any of you should have forgotten, I suggested that in my idea of a Prequel Trilogy, we would see the emergence of widespred blaster use in warfare, that the "elegant weapon for a more civilized day" that Obi Wan waxed poetic about in STAR WARS, the lightsaber, would have played a more prominent role in a series about the last days of the Jedi Knights. The Jedi would be the norm in my PT, so that Ben would be a vestige, and Luke's RETURN would actually mean something. My PT, I claimed, would have had more fantasy than all of the others. I raised this point back then, and Mike, you issued the STRONGEST resistance to it. So, I think that's a ten-yard penalty or somehting like that.

Yes and still do

1. For one thing i don;t think it is practical or rational that the time period between Episode I and Episode IV is the birth of laser blaster warefare. It's too short a time period. The people in Episode IV have obviously been living with laser blaster technology for a pretty long time, like say over a century.

2. If the jedi are the norm, that makes the jedi less impressive. Only Jedi's should be using lightsabers.

3. Visially and story wise, I can;t imagine you would have that many intersting battles and story wise

4. It doesn't make sense,. If you can build a lightsaber, you sure as hell have enough technological expertise to build a laser gun.

Think...your a scientist.. you have develope laser beam technology. What makes sense to build first.... a short range sword device or a long range laser gun???? The only reason the Jedis are effective with the lightsabers is that they have their enhanced agility and skills with the force.

Civilian, if a Wampaa was coming after you, what would you rather have
1. a lightsaber? or 2. a blaster and remember....your not a jedi,( or are you? } your an average joe.?

[Mike Mac from NYU]

How is it possible that a society that can develop faster than light space travel and massive starships and droid technology has only now gotten around to to building laser guns???

[Just your average movie goer]

Mike, I think you took the whole 'infidels' thing too seriously. I don't know if sarcasm is used much in America but it's part of my Australian culture...

No offence intended, but would you like me to use some type of emoticons after sarcastic comments to flag them for you? And which emoticons would work for you? Maybe I can use this - - as my sarcasm emoticon. Would that be good for you? Just chill, Mike, chill. Take a deep breath and relax.


As for Civilian's idea about lots of lightsabers and Jedi Knights being the norm, it's not as bad as you make out. From what I can gleam of it, it sounds as though nobody is using blasters because the Jedi handle conflict situations and they use lightsabers - they're not as clumsy or as random. And nobody can accidentally shoot an innocent bystander by mistake with a lightsaber.

Also, Jedi were quite common by the sounds of things - the way Obi Wan told Luke "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father." was pretty casual.

[barend]

firstly, they have had blasters for thousands of years...

their technology does not improove at all, infact,niether does their fashion.

--------------
and
JYAMG, Sarcasm is rare in the US.

[civilian_number_two]

"Real adults do not watch movies in which teddy bears go 'Yub yub!'".

Actually they do. Anthropologist watch movies like that all the time. Yub-Yub is from !Kung Bushmen speak. As are a lot of the sounds and language the Ewoks use.

Now you've really gotten somewhere! ROTJ is 100% realistic, because the primitive, simple-minded (but big-hearted) droid-worshipping bushmen of Endor are based on real-life, earth-based niggers! Well, I take back EVERYTHING! ROTJ is not only relevant, it's racist as well! That makes it BETTER!

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 09 June 2004 - 10:33 PM

[civilian_number_two]

Yes and still do

1. For one thing i don;t think it is practical or rational that the time period between Episode I and Episode IV is the birth of laser blaster warefare. It's too short a time period. The people in Episode IV have obviously been living with laser blaster technology for a pretty long time, like say over a century.

Exactly. That's why I say you are in favor of more sci-fi, less fantasy. You missed my point, I think, but I won't miss yours:

1) I didn't suggest the blaster was invented in that period, only that in the old days, it was not used in warfare. Maybe because Jedi could deflect laser blasts, so why bother, but I always figured it was because of Bushido, or some Jedi equivalent, and great warriors liked to square off blade-to-blade with other great warriors. This is the "more civilized day" Ben refers to. Otherwise, that line of his is just a load of crap, like the bit about Vader killing Luke's father and about Luke's father being a "good friend." More proof that Ben was full of crap I did NOT need a prequel series for.

2. If the jedi are the norm, that makes the jedi less impressive. Only Jedi's should be using lightsabers.

i ) Granted, but if the Jedi are a load of goons who sit around in a council chamber and never actually do anything, then the death of the Jedi, and later their return, means little or nothing. At some point in history, I have to believe that some powerful lord or another was able to put together an entire army of Jedi, and this army was there to fight an entire army of Sith. I would have preferred a movie wth Jedi squaring off on Gundarks, tilting light-lances at one another, to the technological terror of Coruscant. So maybe the soldiers and the militia use blasters, but the Jedi use llightsabers, and there are a damn lot of them.

ii ) Frankly, if I think something is impressive, then a lot of that thing might turn out to be very impressive. And if I am to believe in the time mentioned above, with the armies and the what-not, I'd rather see it than have to imagine it.

3. Visially and story wise, I can;t imagine you would have that many intersting battles and story wise

Watch EXCALIBUR and get back to me about that poor imagination of yours.

4. It doesn't make sense,. If you can build a lightsaber, you sure as hell have enough technological expertise to build a laser gun.

Yes, and if a society has space ships and faster-than-light travel, then they should be able to afford land mines, tank traps, and patriot missiles. The land battle on Hoth is impossible from the point of view of military technology; they would have needed a lot more guys to take out a technologically-advanced, fortified base. If they were not willing to nuke the site from orbit (Vader's orders = no), then we were looking at a losing battle for the Empire, or a winning battle with a hell of a lot of Imperial caualties. Definitely not a one-sided slaughter and rout of the rebels. We got what we got because the narrative demanded it. I accept what we got, and I am ready to acknowledge the cognitive dissonance and reliance on fantasy necessary for that acceptance.

No point in trying to bring too much science into it; if you don't like the idea of an army of Jedi Knights, then I'll take that to be a personal preference. Once you start trying to use science or "realism" to back up your opinion, you're only going to draw attention to how weak the series is in both regards. So it's a poor crutch. besides, the series never pretends to be big on realism, so why demand it all of a sudden?

The summary of my desire that the PT were more fantasy and less sci-fi (I have said this before as well): It would have made them different, and therefore worth doing, rather than the tired retread and name-dropping nightmare that is the PT we got.

And the answer to your hypothetical question is: I would rather have the lightsaber. I can see the thing coming, right? And it can see me? I would win that fight, and in the end I have a lightsaber, which is way cooler than a blaster, for all the use I'm going to get out of either. I bet I'd make a killing on eBay!

[Xombie]

A new guy here who would like in put his two cents in on ROTJ.

Return of the Jedi sealed my contempt for Lucas as a director and as a human being. It has nothing to do with those silly ewoks and everything to do with Vader.

In Star Wars Vader was established as a somewhat two dimensional but imposing henchman willing to do the Empire's dirty work. So without scruples is he that he commits an act of genocide that is almost without cinematic precedence and does so seemingly without so much as batting an eye behind his darkened visor. In the Empire Strikes Back we get a bit more nuance and see Vader now as the feared right hand man of the Emperor. he is not, as many have analogized, Hitler. He is Himmler, the Reich's black-uniformed instrument of terror. And in the climactic battle between Skywalker and Vader, Luke learns that this horrific being is none other than his father.

So far, so good.

Now we come to ROTJ and find that Luke Skywalker --representing the forces of good-- is now obsessed witth VADER'S SPIRITUAL REDEMPTION!!!!! And what's more, it is clear that Lucas wants us to be too! W....T......F??!!!

Yes, we are supposed to cheer when, at the end of a long murderous reign of terror with the lives of bilions of Alderanneans (or whatever) and who knows how many more on his butcher's bill, Vader has a momentary lapse of conscience and sacrifices himself to save his son.

And it is supposed to be a HAPPY ending when we see that for this one pitifully small act (compared to the monstrousness of his crimes) he gets to go to Jedi Heaven and apparently hang out with all the other dead jedis, many of whom owe their deadness to him? Obie Won, whom he killed and who he betrayed, looks happy to see him! Princess Leia smiles when she catches a glimpse of him in his little heavenly get-up even though he TORTURED her, TORTURED the man she loves, CUT OFF the HAND of her brother and killed BILLIONS of her subjects! SOME PRINCESS!

And this is supposed to be a happy ending? This is supposed to make us feel good as we walk out of the theater whistling the "Yub yub" theme.

Only a monster or a sociopath could have conceived of such a moral abomination as a feel-good summer blockbuster about the redemption of Himmler (with talking teddy bears).

If you hate the prequels, this is where it all went wrong. Look what came of it:

Episode I: Baby Himmler.

Episode II: Teen Himmler.

Episode III: Himmler Joins the SS

[Jordan]

Granted, but if the Jedi are a load of goons who sit around in a council chamber and never actually do anything, then the death of the Jedi, and later their return, means little or nothing

This is very true. The portrayal of the Jedi Council, in my opinion, was the most disappointing event in the movie. I pictured them in a recluse temple location, high up in some mountain top, surrounded by beautiful flora and exotic wild life.

Corrcursant was an eye full. The amount of man hours spend on designing every shot could have been placed on something else, perhaps revising the script a bit.

They could still be the keepers of peace, but in the capacity I stated above. If problems were a foot, then send a message to them for help. And if they deemed the task worthy then they would help out. Instead PM portrays them as stupid political side kicks whose only advice is delivered in the form of questions. And when they are not being called upon, they sit in trump towers ponder the many things about life. "what if, how come, if so, why, perhaps, and ok?"

No point in trying to bring too much science into it; if you don't like the idea of an army of Jedi Knights, then I'll take that to be a personal preference. Once you start trying to use science or "realism" to back up your opinion, you're only going to draw attention to how weak the series is in both regards. So it's a poor crutch. besides, the series never pretends to be big on realism, so why demand it all of a sudden?

It's a good thing that they were not totally consistent with sciences. The AT AT walkers (fucking cool) are the most ineffiecient slow moving mechanically over done peices of junk, when viewing them through a realistic telescope.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 10 June 2004 - 01:38 AM

[J m HofMarN]

I think that's a great point about the Jedi. I mean they don't seem to guard much of anything unless someone fucks with them. Most of the time they sit in comfy chairs talking to ambassadors and sipping what I'm sure are the corruscant equivalent of martinis.

I was thinking the Jedi would be more like a secret or at least quiet religious order that would add a bit of mysticism to them and interest. Instead they're just some bums who the chancelor lets crash with him.

[Just your average movie goer]

Welcome to the forum, Xombie. And more importantly, welcome to the Return of the Jedi haters camp. Your grievances about Vader's treatment are quite understandable. I just thought I'd put in my own grievances concerning Vader -

In Star Wars, Vader was Grand Moff Tarkin's henchman. As Leia said it, Grand Moff Tarkin was "holding Vader's leash."

In The Empire Strikes Back, Vader was numero uno basically. Sure there was an Emperor somewhere but he had let Vader take out the entire Imperial Fleet to do with it as he pleased and he wreaked havoc. He was a very formidable, impossibly powerful and ruthless villain. We also got to see him throttling people far away from him without lifting a finger (without even stopping his conversation) and block multiple laser blasts, smash the crap out of Luke with the dark side's powers - he was amazing.

And then in Return of the Jedi, he is put back on the leash and he becomes the Emperor's monkey-boy - all soft spoken, "I must obey my master." and "It is too late for me, son."

I don't know what happened but it seems like someone gave him a lobotomy between the two movies. If he had an Indian Chief in the ward with him, I'm sure he would have been mercifully smothered with a pillow before the commencement of Return of the Jedi.

and
JYAMG, Sarcasm is rare in the US.

Yeah, from this forum, I'm beginning to think that's true. Maybe in future, I will include a little statement preceding my posts -

WARNING: The following post may contain sarcasm.


Lastly, the Jedi council - they WERE pretty damn useless. They just sit around, going 'hmmmm' all day. I also loved how when they wanted to have a look at a Senate meeting, they had to sit high up in the observatory, no doubt with a bunch of school kids on their social science excursion.

Yep, that was pretty inspiring alright. <- SARCASM

[Helena]

To some extent I agree with what Xombie said. Yeah, it's great that Vader has a change of heart at the last minute, but it hardly makes up for all the crimes he's committed in the past (it was actually Tarkin who had Alderaan blown up, but nonetheless). I can see why Lucas wanted a 'happy' ending but it would be better if he'd just let Vader die, rather than having him appear at the end with the other Jedi.

On the other hand, I think it's simplistic to compare him to Hitler or Himmler. The point about Anakin Skywalker was that he had once been a good man, a hero even - but he had been seduced by the incredible power of the Dark Side and it had gradually taken over his mind. It's clear from what he says that he is not entirely in control of his actions, a bit like a drug addict: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side, Luke. I must obey my master..." That's why Luke is so obsessed with 'redeeming' him; he sees for himself how hard it is to resist the temptation to use the Force for evil purposes.

If done correctly, the prequels could have been an interesting exploration of how a good person could turn into a monster like Vader. Unfortuantely, Lucas chose to make Anakin a psychopath right from the start, in direct contradiction of what Obi-Wan tells us about him in the OT. Yet another wasted opportunity...