[HK 47]

Njamilla, perhaps I should have been more exact in my previous post. So I rephrase my question:

If you would see an asian movie (when there is no reason, logical, historical, geographic or otherwise to exclude other races) with only asians in it, would you complain?

Let's face it, racism isn't the focus of GL's story. Anger and hate is. He touches on bigotry against droids in the Mos Eisley cantina, but he doesn't make any overt statements about it. GL's concept of droids is no where near the visions of the Matrix, Terminator, I, Robot, or Star Trek which posits the idea of sentience. For Lucas, a droid is sophisticated machine, no emotions except for slapstick humor and dramatic license.

And by this you want to say...? Droids are human too?

[Hannibal]

" perhaps I should have been more exact in my previous post. So I rephrase my question:
If you would see an asian movie (when there is no reason, logical, historical, geographic or otherwise to exclude other races) with only asians in it, would you complain?"

Is this deliberate refusal to read posts? Can you read, its seems you had this problem before with my posts, or perhaps convenient logic. I believe he addressed that issue quite plainly.




"QUOTE
Let's face it, racism isn't the focus of GL's story. Anger and hate is. He touches on bigotry against droids in the Mos Eisley cantina, but he doesn't make any overt statements about it. GL's concept of droids is no where near the visions of the Matrix, Terminator, I, Robot, or Star Trek which posits the idea of sentience. For Lucas, a droid is sophisticated machine, no emotions except for slapstick humor and dramatic license."




""""And by this you want to say...? Droids are human too? """

Once again HK, its like you conveniently are ignoring everything in the QUOTE YOU REPOSTED! Its obvious what he's saying. I realize it perhaps seems like it would help your argument to deny what he said even though you posted VERBATIM what he did post, but this is rediculous.

The idea of showing bigotry for droids is alomst obscene, since Lucas examines nothing at all regarding potential robot sentience or consciousness from A.I. In other words, while Star Trek explores this issue for its story, droid bigotry makes sense in the context of the story, while in star wars--its redicuous. What about the droid army in Episode I? Obiwan and Quigon show the ability to telekinetically "force" them with their 'bruce lee one inch punch" yet they hack the crap out of them, does this constitute unwarranted lethal force against a droid? The point is the droid discrimination is rediculous, and obscene, since it mocks the days in America when blacks were refused entry to restaurants, bars and drinking fountains.

Therefore, George's reference to bigotry is nothing but mockery and meaningless, he addresses no issue of racism. However, his heroes show an uncomfortable disregard and disrespect for other races: Leia: "Will someone get this walking carpet out of my way." C3P0:"I can't abide those Jawas, disgusting creatures." Obiwan:"I sense we've picked up another pathetic life form." All three statements are based on biological difference, they are not complaints of personality or action, but physical characteristic.
Obiwan didn't say, "another pathetic loner" C3P0 didn't say, "I can't abide those damn dirty slavers." Leia didn't say "Will get your incompetant friend out of my way."

These negative statements by our heroes represent physical discriminations against the object of their declarations, not observations of character. It is racism in a way.

The point about racial representation is: Star Wars is a vast exposition of a multicultural setting, Jawas, Hutts, Neimodians, Nabooians, Gungans, Wookies, Ewoks and thousands of other alien races engaged in an epic struggle. We have thousands of whites, we have a couple blacks, a hispanic and a couple asians. If you're making a film about a multiracial, multicultural struggle, and at the same time HEAVILY barrow from asian aesthetics and story material, why NOT have an asian male? Why not? WHy not, when you have sterotype caricatures of asians, asian joke characters, and asian fetish characters? It becomes and insult in a way to asian males who observe this fact because if it wasn't for asian males, there would be no star wars. Yeah, thats right. Its a logical, understandable statement, and it has nothing to do with PC inclusion, or affirmative action, or token race inclusion. Perhaps its a note of respect for as YOU stated, the overhwelming asian male population ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. The statement, which I agree with, still stands: Why not? Is that important? Only in the context of this part of the forum, you act like we're on CNN arguing a supreme court case against George Lucas. Its an exp​ression of emotions, feelings, thoughts and certian misgivings. If you are still so political about it, then why don't you get up and file class action lawsuits against affirmative action or something instead of constantly refusing to READ the statements we have given redundantly over and over and over. You have had this problem before and I see its not going away any time soon. You have a right to your opinions, and I grant you every right to believe and say what you think, if you hate jews, worship Zeus or anything you believe in, whatever, but what you are arguing about is the right of any asian male to "feel" the way he wants to feel about Star Wars and express it and post that opinion. You seem upset that someone could think this way. He's formed his opinions logically, and completely, and you, as before, consistantly ignore his points and maintain that his exp​ressions are not worthy.

Anyone can see the points he's made, and though I have taken it further than he, and this is where the arguments should be directed>>at my speculations and ideas, for I am not Asian, and though I am not "coming to the aid of the plight of the asians" the situation is similar to earlier posts before. The arguments you and others make are never about facts, nor are they addressing the points people like myself, or njmilla have made, they are dismissals and redirections, with a complete ignorance of respecting point of view. You keep suggesting there is NO REASON to express these opinions, and back up your declarations by sidestepping entire posts, or simply by casting dispersions. Njmilla is not starting an anti-white crusade here, nor initiating a supreme court case, he's not advocating the extermination of white people, nor is he suggesting that all american movies are racist, and I am not suggesting anything as such or that this is a conspiracy against asians, jews or blacks.

If it isn't clear yet, then what can anybody do? This is yet one of a million faults people have with George Lucas and Star wars, one of millions, but each one of us from our points of view have every right to point out these faults, and each comprehend where we are coming from with our points of view. I maintain that it is an understandable feeling of asians to see Star Wars, a multimillion dollar industry which panders to every kind of person on earth, and wonder why it is in a franchise with a premise of this cosmopolitan galaxy of thousands of races, if they are supposed to relate as Lucas wants us all to relate(thats why he researched Campbell so he sell his toys to everybody on earth) why it is there is no character they can specifically relate to in a positive way? Star Wars has been translated into a hundred languages, and its message is supposed to be "universal" AND has not one but TWO intergalactic forms of representation the Senate AND the JEDI, and nowhere are any asian characters...even from a marketing standpoint this is a fault of Lucas. I don't think njmilla is DEMANDING there be an asian Jedi in Episode III, so all of your posts which try to make him out to be a "REPARATIONIST" are phony, and thoroughly ignorant.

If we go back to many of these posts we will see that entire sections of his posts are disregarded while you go on your "anti-PC" rants. There's nothing wrong with anti-PC rants, I might even join you on a few, but, as with me, you are always trying to "paint" certain people here in this forum as "something." This is distortion. If you want to "paint" celebrities, political figures, or anyone that would be a "SUBJECT" be my guest, but actively doing this to members of this forum is insideous. I don't think you are a fascist, or a nazi, nor would I infer you might be, nor do your statements make you a racist, and the point is njmilla never suggested you were, or that anyone who likes star wars is, nor have I.

Pay attention.

[njamilla]

I was writing my own reply to HK (which is below) but then I read Hannibal's post and... need I say more?


*****
If you would see an asian movie (when there is no reason, logical, historical, geographic or otherwise to exclude other races) with only asians in it, would you complain?

I guess you're trying to make the point that GL is white and therefore it doesn't matter that all the actors in his movies are white. He doesn't have to cultural or ethnically sensitive or interested.

And by this you want to say...? Droids are human too?

Simply that GL isn't interested in the issue of racism or else he would have made more of the robot-sentience issue as a form of "droidism" as it pertains to the discussionn of racism in this thread.

If you think I'm calling you a racist, then I apologize. But I'm not. Just pointing out that in a movie as huge in scope as this movie is, don't be surprised when an Asian points out a racial ommission. I guess I'm not convincing you that it's important to me to look at SW with an Asian sensitive lense.

When I wrote my book on sword fighting, I sent copies of the manuscript out to people in various non-American countries. What kept coming back was that I presumed that because GL was an American film maker, everything in the movies had to be looked at from an American perspective. My friends pointed out to me that there are ideas in SW that are universal, ideas which to appeal to people of every race, color, creed, nationality, gender, sexuality, and everything other human distinction. Since the appeal is so transnational, people will look at SW from any number of perspectives, including a racial one.

I'm not making the assertion that GL is racist, though others in this thread have.

However, the fact that people (including friends of mine, white and of color) have indicated a form of Asian stereotyping of the Neimoidians in appearance and in voice points out to me that Lucas' work can appear racially insensitive whether Lucas intended it out not. If no one percieved any racial overtone, this whole thread is moot. But people have, and that's a PR problem Lucas can address or disregard as he sees fit.

[HK 47]

Hannibal, I'm sure njamila is capable of talking for himself. We were having a civil conversation and I was simply asking him a question since I felt his first reply kind of avoided it.

Can you read, its seems you had this problem before with my posts, or perhaps convenient logic.

The first time I replied, very politely I might add, to one of your posts I received a condescending and insulting reply and a very long Himmler essay. After that I chose to ignore you. Going on a rant again is not helping any. Especially since your post contains factual errors "Perhaps its a note of respect for as YOU stated" (That was Jordan) and convenient bullshit like "you are always trying to "paint" certain people here in this forum as "something."" (Always? When? Where?) and my favorite "you act like we're on CNN arguing a supreme court case against George Lucas." No, that's your thing.

"why NOT have an asian male? Why not?" It'd be perfectly cool with me, see my post on previous page for preferred actor. As long it's not a "token" actor.

[HK 47]

I guess you're trying to make the point that GL is white and therefore it doesn't matter that all the actors in his movies are white. He doesn't have to cultural or ethnically sensitive or interested.

No, that's not the point. The point is, if you are to criticize films regarding what race the actors are, there would be a hell of a lot of movies to criticize since this is extremely common, among all greater movie making areas (L.A. Hong kong, Bollywood etc). And I just find it ridiculous to criticize films because of this no matter who makes them.

Simply that GL isn't interested in the issue of racism

Ok, gotcha. I agree, Star Wars is not about that.

If you think I'm calling you a racist, then I apologize. But I'm not.

Absolutely not! That's not the point either. The reason I react to this topic is because I feel that "politically correct" reasons to include/exclude members of certain race in different situations always seem to lead to the opposite of the desired effect, more intolerance, that is all. I might as well add that I'm sorry if you interpreted my reply as something other than a civil discussion.

[njamilla]

And I just find it ridiculous to criticize films because of this no matter who makes them.

Criticizing films, or better, critiquing films because of its racial content is something any art piece is open to. Art is a public thing. Therefore, it IS to be judged by whatever criteria the audience wishes to measure it, whether by standards or personal taste. I already told you my threshold for the SW saga (it has universal appeal but lacks a representative male Asian figure as a Jedi) which you don't have to accept. If people didn't care about SW, this whole issue would be moot. But the dialog would still continue in other movies because it is an important issue. Your attention and passion for this thread attests to this.

We could have debated this issue in the Matrix because it too has universal appeal across the world and doesn't speak to one particular culture's or ethnic group's problems and issues. There, I think the Matrix addresses racial concerns (though the details are more of a matter of debate).

If people care about a movie, whether they like it or hate it, it's worth judging by any standard or issue. The market place and the public pulpit regulate which issues get attention. (Not always a fair system.)


The reason I react to this topic is because I feel that "politically correct" reasons to include/exclude members of certain race in different situations always seem to lead to the opposite of the desired effect, more intolerance, that is all.

Political correctness (as people use it these days) has to do with the pressure of self-censorship because one has to appear publically proper. It has a negative connotation in that a person feels as if they have to change or bow to the pressures of society -- they can't simply express themselves in bigoted terms which used to be acceptable (or a non-issue). If you think paying attention to how you present yourself to the public is something that is not a high priority, then others may criticize you for being insensitive. Others may rally behind you because it's your constitutional right (which it is, at least in most democratic countries).

The choice here is for Lucas and how his artistic work will be accepted by the public. If he doesn't care that some of his artistic choices come off as racially insensitive (It's art and race doesn't have anything to do with it.), then he doesn't have to do anything. He can counter argue or sit on his hands. If he does care, it will impact his decisions and changes will be made.

Again, I think it's a PR thing because I don't think GL is a racist. Simply because a person includes racist remarks in a script (which reflect the way people actually are) doesn't make the person a racist. Still, GL does have a credibility problem with perceived stereotyping: Asians are money grubbing evil businessmen, all Germans are Nazis, White people care about ancient artifacts while natives only try to cash in on their cultural heritage, Frenchmen are conniving bastards, etc.

Does being PC foment intolerance? I guess it could, but what is the alternative for a minority group? Say nothing and let all of the bigoted statements continue as a matter of course? The whole point of a minority standing up and saying, "Hey, I don't want you to call me nigger or black or spear chucker" is what makes people rethink how they present themselves in public. Sorry if you're part of the dominant group and have to rethink how you express yourself in public. You (and not you HK personally) may feel bitter about having to watch your Ps and Qs, but for a minority, a change in language or a change in attitude or a change in behavior that is positive because he/she stood up is a huge step in the right direction.

Being racially more sensitive and feeling pressured to act that way speaks to the fact that a person just might NOT actually be more racially sensitive. If a person cares to be more racially sensitive, they do something about it -- they change their language or their behavior. Yeah, it might be inconvenient to use African-American (what many blacks prefer), and you and I might grouse about that, but the alternative is hypocrisy (which many people don't care about in the first place because they don't examine their own values, beliefs, and actions.). Being PC vis-a-vis gender is a huge inconvenience too because of the linguistic construction of the English language, but it's possible and it often reflects well on the individual.

I'm working with an independent SW film. If we looked at the casting for that film, it could be perceived as racially non-inclusive -- the good guys are White, three of the bad guys are evil. I can personally give you the inside scoop about the decision making process, which may come of as giving excuses as the director could be accused of not trying hard enough to find a minority actor.

The bottom line for this film (in which everyone was a volunteer and got paid zippo while the director pulled tens of thousands of dollars out of his own pocket) is that the best martial artists were the Asians (me included) and where therefore given bad guy roles, while the better actors who applied happened to be White people who got the principal parts, the heroes. The director was aware that most SW fan films portray men as the heroes, he decided to have heroines. The director was also very consciously aware that his cast was mostly made up of white people, so he made a huge effort to try to get minorities to be extras. In all honesty, there was no directorial reason or script requirement that said they needed minorities, but the director did what the best he could and he found scores of blacks, Asians, and native-Americans to populate the movie as extras. The director noticed a perceptual issue and he did something about it, an I like to think I helped by bringing up the issue and then recruiting minorities. This director is not a racist: he agreed with the idea of racial sensitivity, he gave minorities positions up near the camera, he mitigated his racially weighted cast.

GL isn't a small time operation. He has the means to find cast members of any number of races and genders, and for 99% of his casting decisions, he does a stellar job: women are featured as strong people, blacks have prominent roles, there are millions of Maori clones, Whites have choice parts, as do several aliens and mechanical creatures.

So I nit pick about Asian males. Some people ride the idea to "GL is a racist", other, like you, rail against the implications of PC. My bad? or My good?


Edit: typos

This post has been edited by njamilla: 14 November 2004 - 08:25 AM

[HK 47]

So I nit pick about Asian males. Some people ride the idea to "GL is a racist", other, like you, rail against the implications of PC. My bad? or My good?

The reason I get into this topic is that I get a bit miffed at people who accusingly shout "racist" at the drop of a hat. It's a pretty serious accusation all too common today. Over-sensitivity to the issue might be a reason for this. And this affects a sound debate negatively, where people are scared of even discussing the issue in a straightforward way.
"Say nothing and let all of the bigoted statements continue as a matter of course?"
Of course people should react, only some react in unmotivated situations. And when you accuse someone of something they're innocent of, that's what breeds bad feelings and intolerance. Judging from your previous post however it's obvious you do not belong in the category to which I was referring (the people who ride the idea to "GL is a racist"). This is why I pushed the issue regarding a movie with exclusively asians. Get me? You good.

How about it then, don't you think Ken Watanabe would make a great Jedi?

[njamilla]

How about it then, don't you think Ken Watanabe would make a great Jedi?

Don't you think Watanabe would overshadow Mace? I mean, gosh, shouldn't we keep Asians in their place?

[barend]

i have not side stepped, or been vague... i have not been dismissive of anyones opinion... nor have i been an idiot...

what i have been is largely overlooked in my posts and the valid points i have made as someone who i think is in a position to have a real opinion on this matter...

i resent an implication to the contrary.

long have i watched movies that delve into territory sensitive to my own interest or heritage with insuficient representation or considereation...
so i think i have some authority that deserves more than the desmissive counter accusation by the same nature in order to undermine it.

it is weak... sneakier than most, but still weak.

my argument still stands.

do people have the right to have their own opinion of films, from their unique standpoint?

YES.

do people have the right to turn every minor detail into such an issue that all forms of art and public comunique becomes nothing more than a stressfully explosive game of spillikin (that's the game where you have to pull single skewers out of a pile of them stacked up without spilling the entire pile)?

not if society is planning on progressing to any point.

the inhability to aknowlege cultural differences is the death of global identity. the excesive stereotyping or repraochability of exclusion are both paths to a world where one is forced to acknowlage every faction without describing it, everytime one would venture to create something.

worsecase senario granted... but valid.

that being said....
i'd like to quickly jump on some other points...
1. the droids in star wars often express emotions, physical pain, and value in friendship.

2. where are all the gay jedi?

This post has been edited by barend: 14 November 2004 - 06:40 PM

[njamilla]

Barend: Not exactly sure where you're going with your post.

What are you saying about droids and emotions?

And, are you saying there should be gay Jedi?

[barend]

It was mentioned before that the droids were not sentient...
but they certainly express alot of human emotions... more so than the humans...

as for the gay thing... yeah!
i mean what are all the gay kiddies going to think with the lack of gay jedi... I bet $10 there won't be two guys kissing before going into combat... being parted for what could be forever... hmmm?
i mean there's annie and padme kissing before being tied up in the arena but are there no homsexuals in the SW universe?

I think it's pretty inconsiderate...
no, wait offensive!!!

i think it unfair that the gay comunity in unrepresented in this film...
and that should be more important to represent don't you think?
i mean there are gay people of every race... there fore a larger minority but totally missing from George Lucas' utopian brave new world!!!

does everyone agree with me...
'cause if you don't you're a homophobic nazi!!!!

[njamilla]

It was mentioned before that the droids were not sentient...
but they certainly express alot of human emotions... more so than the humans...

This was my response from my earlier post about this:
Let's face it, racism isn't the focus of GL's story. Anger and hate is. He touches on bigotry against droids in the Mos Eisley cantina, but he doesn't make any overt statements about it. GL's concept of droids is no where near the visions of the Matrix, Terminator, I, Robot, or Star Trek which posits the idea of sentience. For Lucas, a droid is sophisticated machine, no emotions except for slapstick humor and dramatic license.

'cause if you don't you're a homophobic nazi

The premise of this thread was that GL is indebted to the model of samurai for the Jedi and yet he doesn't even have a Asian male Jedi representative of that in the Jedi Order. If his model had been of gay samurai, then maybe I'd be focusing on gay Jedi. I'm gay, and I'm for gay Jedi, but I can't make the same argument for gay Jedi as I can for an Asian Jedi, can I?

[barend]

The premise of this thread was that GL is indebted to the model of samurai for the Jedi and yet he doesn't even have a Asian male Jedi representative of that in the Jedi Order. If his model had been of gay samurai, then maybe I'd be focusing on gay Jedi. I'm gay, and I'm for gay Jedi, but I can't make the same argument for gay Jedi as I can for an Asian Jedi, can I?

ahhhhhhhhh....

i got caught up in the argument that was happening...

if your only grief is that sorce material is not being adequatley represented by a culteral embasidor of sorts... that makes a bit more sense...

but by the same token is the reason for the lack of...

had he put a japanese guy in there... the suspended disbeleif would be lost... it would be too easy for an audience to say... oh more earth stuff in outer space... the lack of eastern rim participants gives the OT its "uniqueness"

other wise it would be the same as haveing footnotes to all the films hanibal listed at the bottom of the screen with it's coresponding scene...

and like i've said before...
why not just have LOTR written there the whole way through

but my gay jedi remark was to any who, and often would say this film is not PC... and then in response to one of my typical remarks... oh, no no no... you can't have two men kissing in a film for kids

which is good because it exposes two important things
1. people who say they are PC but are not.
2. that this is a kids film...

tolerance is all the way or none...

so despite what your point was the argument had gone else where...
so sorry if i seemed like a stonewall there...

i think your argument is a bit more valid than the general one that was accepted...
however, as i said... it would map the whole thing to close to home... and that would force it to loose that fantasy element...

it would turn the metaphore into a similie... and they're just boring to watch....

i would however like to see more asian oriented sci-fi...
but like i said before... not by an all-american boy...

[njamilla]

Barend: I don't think I disagree much with what you're getting at.

I think this thread is basically a personal quibble on my part, which then became a resurrected Frankenstein.

All I want is a good story and some excitement for my time in the theater. I also feel I could have done things differently than GL and have come out with a stronger set of movies. (I think a lot of people feel that way here or else we wouldn't hang out in what is basically an anti-website.)

If gay Jedi would enhance the story, then I'm all for it. Same for an Asian male Jedi. Essentially, I am, as you pointed out in an earlier post, advocating tokenism for a minor, non-important issue. That's not to diminish the hard work everyone has put into this thread hammering out our points of view. In one line of thought, tokenism can be a first step in a greater acceptance. After all, you have to give a guy a chance to prove himself even if he's only been chosen on the basis of a characteristic, not an ability.

I like what you said in an earlier post that it is in some ways important for Asians to prove themselves instead of trying to get "the Man" to change his/her stripes. But let's face it, much of the world works because of popularity and personal preference. A lot of bad music gets written and played simply because a lot of people like it. SW too often falls into this category. Asians do get recognized for some of their accomplishments, as do many other groups. Do Indians get enough credit? In Hollywood, probably not. But in my experience I've always been fascinated by Indian history and religion. And I've yet to meed Indians who I would consider to be dumb fucks.

In the cultural PR clash of societies, my ethnic heritage often gets the short end of the stick. The Philippines is not known for its great Empires or his international prestige or its economic clout. Often, the only respect I hear about Filipinos is that they all carry knives and that they're willing to use it. Well, I've gotten over all of this when I visited the Philippines as a teenager. I wasn't impressed with the places or the things people had, but I'll tell you Filipinos are by far some of the nicest people I've met in the entire world. (I also like the Dutch.) And if that's anything to be proud of, I'm the happiest person on the planet.

Hell, we all change the world one person at a time, so if I can rally a couple of people to my cause to have an Asian male Jedi, I'll do it. If I can rally a few people to include an Indian male jedi, I'm up for that cause too. Heck, it took me a while to realize that Indians are Asians too, as are the white Caucasians who live in Australia and New Zealand. (Do you guys call yourselves Oceanics?)

[Jordan]

I think I understand what you're saying, njamilla. For you , the story would have been enhanced if there was an Asian Jedi, but it was not a requirement that needed to be met.

For me, having compitent storm troopers who don't die after one shot would have greatly improved the battle scenes.