[SimeSublime]

JYAMG, you mentioned a few times that you've been in Japan and Korea, and also that you're Australian. I got the impression from one of your posts that you had students, so I'm guessing that you teach English over there? Just a bit interested in the subject.

[Laura]

Hey, don't be so hard on women that don't want to be treated all weird. The traditions of men opening doors for them, paying for them etc. have their roots in a society where women have no rights and are basically treated as children. When a guy opens a door for me, it feels strange and wrong, like I've just time-warped back to the fifties. I know he's just trying to be nice, but it makes me feel like a subordinate. I wouldn't go berserk, but I'd politely decline the offer. Other women who dislike this kind of attention may realize that it is offered in kindness, and they may not; but either way, they dislike it all the same.

Let's put it this way. If the man and the woman both do those little things for each other like that--hold the door for each other, buy each other flowers--that's fine, that's something they want to do. But if only one ever does it for the other--EITHER one--then it feels like the relationship is unequal, and even on a symbolic level, that makes me uncomfortable.

[barend]

I was just trying to pain a worse case scenario of the institue of marage and divorce... It was not a reflection of my dating situation.
so don't take it to heart, it was an attack on the legal system, not women...
they expect men to just take a very unfair system.

i'm a nice guy and i believe that chivalry is an outdated and paronizing practice.
like i always say, chivalry was the reward for domestic servitude.

the girls i like i tell i like!
and it is usually received well...

i pay for my share of a meal, unless it's her birthday or something...
then i think a shout is nice.

so chill laura, i have no problem girls it's just the law, the system, and outdated expectations that society has failed to unite on once and for all to clear this mess up!!!

[Laura]

It's not you, Barend. I understood your message.

[barend]

also...

i think divorce should have a cerimony. i mean, you have this huge wedding you give each other rings, everyone gives you gifts, they rent formal ware and show up, then all you have to do to end it is sign some papers (and cheques) and it's undone...

i think that's why marrage isn't taken seriously anymore...

there should be like an unwedding. paid for by the person who wants responsible for the break down of the marrage. you give back the rings, and you have pawnbroker instead of a preist. a cake and drinks, and listenable music this time.

[Despondent]

My ex wanted me to pay for half the attorney's fees. I stood my ground and made them change it before I signed. That and the clause about me paying half of the debt she racked up.

"She wants the divorce, she's paying for it."

Damn, that felt good to say.

(the attorney btw is a friend of both of ours prior to all this.)

My ex kept the ring, but moved out so that was nice.
but dammit, I didn't sign up for this! :angry:

[Just your average movie goer]

"She wants the divorce, she's paying for it."

Too true.


And Laura, I think you're reading far too much into men opening the door for women, etc. It's not a throw back to the time when had a deeply subordinate social position. It's something that nice men like to do. I will not withdraw my sentiments on the matter. Chill.

[Just your average movie goer]

To SimeSublime, you're right. I'm an English teacher working in Korea now. I taught in Japan last year. Are you interested in teaching in Asia? I may be able to give you some information to help you out. Let me know if you're interested or if you have any questions.

[Rory]

I'm a little divided on some gestures, such as opening doors. On one hand, it had its roots in oppression and what have you. However, on the other hand, its sort of a delightful tradition, like the phrase "rule of thumb." Both have their roots in men beating women with sticks no wider than their thumbs, but now they're just silly stuff we do/say.

Its sort of in the same light as men wearing top hats and women wearing dresses. Sure, I guess men can start to wear dresses and women can start to wear top hats if they want, but there's nothing all that bad about it, as it is now, even if the top hat is a symbol of oppression, power, and greed and the dress a symbol of servitude, and misery.

Basically, I'm saying I have no problem with a society where men and women are generally held to slightly different, but altogether petty social standards. A man getting paid more than a woman for the same job is one thing; a man opening a door for a girl is another.

[Rory]

Of course, in the same respect, tolerance is important. If an individual doesnt particularly like having the door opened for him or her, thats understandable. In the same respect, if a woman wears a top hat, we should only sort of make fun of her.

[Laura]

Everyone's telling me to chill. I'm not like a militant feminist or anything. I'm just trying to explain that there may be a reason for girls to react poorly to that kind of thing. They're not just bitches who hate nice men.

Truth is in real life, I guess I don't really care--I look at the people I know as people rather than "a man" or "a woman," so if my boyfriend held the door, for example, I'd probably just think he was being cute and do the same thing for him later on. And, if a stranger holds a door for me, I react with the same nonplussed grimace that I use for all strangers who initiate contact with me.

[Despondent]

like the phrase "rule of thumb." Both have their roots in men beating women with sticks no wider than their thumbs,

"thumbs"

yeah. I'm sure it was thumbs and not something else.*

So.... if you're not from the south, is opening a door for a woman the rule of dicks?


(backing away, slowly.)




*extended comment withheld.

[Just your average movie goer]

Whoa... Despondent, getting a bit carried away with something there.... hmmm...

I better leave that one alone. I'm not sure what that's all about.

Thanks for backing me up there, Rory.

And Laura, we don't think you're a militant feminist. Your avatar is too sweet for that to be the case.

[Mist]

He's hiding his eyes behind his glasses. What a condescending gesture! Like he doesn't think women are intelligent enough to interpret eye exp​ressions, so he doesn't bother removing his glasses! :angry:

Just trying to show that you can't win, guys. No matter what you do, someone can dig up a meaning that's a slander of their race, gender, language, age, culture, whatever.

It could be considered sexist that some women do that. I mean, when a person opens the door for you or summat, they're probably not thinking "They're a insert stereotype, so they're incapable of doing something for themselves." They're probably just there and feel like doing something nice. Thinking that a man opening the door says something different than if a woman did it is sexist in itself.

Note that this is a generic observation and isn't directed at Laura.

This post has been edited by Mist: 22 June 2004 - 12:58 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Thanks for the support, Mist. Maybe I better get another random thought up there before this turns into a long drawn out argument between us and Laura...

... so... um...

those plastic balls that they use for kids playgrounds (you know the ones where the kids could drown in a sea of coloured plastic balls? Yes, those)....

Whoever thought of that concept should be shot. That is one of the worst inventions ever - they are so damn messy and such a waste of resources. I would very much like to find whoever invented them and dump a truckload of them in his house.

Okay, there's a new thought for you - pointless... and... random.

* This invention may even be more useless than the leaf blower, but it's hard to say with certainty.