[J m HofMarN]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22095352/

So in short, Iran hasnt been researching nuclear weapons for four years, and Bush considers this "a warning" because... well because it's Iran, and they're heathen scum. I really am impressed with his devotion to hatred and war. Iran stops weapons research, and he says they could restart it. Iran researches weapons and he says they have to die. Either way it sure sucks to be one of them ay-rabs right now.

Also, his argument that you're either against Iran or for WW3 is just brilliant. As usual the world is divided into two very small camps consisting of Bush loyalists and a few dumb rednecks opposed to... well... people who are fans of world war 3, which I guess is Bush Loyalists and a few dumb rednecks once again.

Props to the reporter who asked him about his "credibility gap" aka his habit of lying. Bush's response was just classic. "well, sure I know no one believes a word I say, but I sure am happy about it! weeeeeeeeeee!"

In a decent society a man like this would be living in a shack in Utah writing rambling manifestos and sending them to newspaper editorial departments. The shack would have a bucket for an outhouse.

[Spoon Poetic]

Friggin' ridiculous.

You know I'm not NEARLY as far left as you, Jm, or as anti-American (because I don't believe the people of a country should be held accountable for what their government does without their consent), but I find this to be utter bullshit and it's just another reason why I wouldn't cry if someone dropped a piano on W. ...'s toe. (Don't want to get jailed for planning an anti-government conspiracy!)

If no one is allowed to have nukes, and this is such a big deal that we'll go rip up their countryside to make sure no one has nukes... Why the fuck do we have a shit ton of nukes?

[barend]

I'm not left or right. I'm a realist. I'm liberal about some things and conservative about the other.

But ultimatley, I think Bush is a loon. He's not evil as such. Just an idiot with a really big army.
It's because of retards like him that everyone still has nukes. Which is a trap because if we get rid of them someone will still horde them (no doubt America more than anyone) so we'll never loose them. Things can only really get worse from here. So the solution?

All 6.6Billion bipedal inhabbitants of this planet must die. Sorry no offense. But it's seriously time to kill all humans.

[Spoon Poetic]

Fer really. I don't think Bush is evil, either - he's not smart enough to be evil. (Though I love the fact that my dad is usually so hardcore republican, and started out as a staunch supporter of Bush, but has since declared Bush to be the anti-Christ. ) I wish there were some way of really being able to know what you're getting yourself into when you pick someone to vote for.

I like your solution, Barend. Let's do it!

[azerty]

I thought the whole point of living in a democracy was that the population ARE responsible for their government. The people themsleves are their own government, and so all responsibility can rest nowhere else. Why, what did you think it was?

If JM hates it there, maybe he should move to a civilized country and learn to relax. Anyway, the United States is a spent force, their money is worthless, they don't produce anything anybody wants, their leader is the butt of jokes, and the rest of the world has stopped paying attention. Especially with the television writer's strike - not even anymore crap Seppo TV to bore people with either.

I'm in the US right now for a while, and what a pain in the ass! The phone system is incompatible with the entire rest of the planet, the electricity is 110 volts so nothing works (are they afraid of a proper 220 system or what?), they are still using feet and ounces despite the fact that that has got to be the most fucked up system ever devised by man, and they are STILL freaked out by the so called 9-11, (the very name of which makes no sense to the rest of the planet, since it is really 11-9 in every other country on earth).

But do you want to know the most fucked up thing of all? The other day I felt like drinking a beer, so I went up to the bar to get one and they guy at the bar said it was "A dry county."

Not knowing what they fuck he was talking about I agreed politely that there hadn't been much rain lately, and are you going to get me that beer or what? Did you know that in the United States of America there are areas where you CANNOT buy a BEER? That is the most fucked up thing I have ever heard of, and I have heard about some fucked up stuff. I mean, you can even by a beer in Dubai for christ sake! I thought the guy was winding me up, and when I started laughing my ass off the dude said he would have to call the cops if I didn't knock it off. I didn't want to go to jail (or whatever the local penalty is for laughing) so I shut up. Jesus, how do you guys who live here put up with it?

Well I get to go to Astana in a couple of weeks, I can do the ultimate culture comparison. I'll get back to you...

[Spoon Poetic]

Why was there a bar in a dry county?

Also:

I thought the whole point of living in a democracy was that the population ARE responsible for their government. The people themsleves are their own government, and so all responsibility can rest nowhere else. Why, what did you think it was?

How about a federal republic? I thought that's what the U.S. was. Oh, right! Because it is. The population can only do so much with their votes. We vote for people to represent us. We vote for John Doe, who will then make his own decisions and say that he's speaking on our behalf, even if we don't agree. Politicians are generally lying sleazebags. How are we to know that they really will be who they say they are, or do what they say they'll do, or, you know, not start stupid wars and do other stupid decisions that of course were never brought up in any kind of debate or forum because how the hell is anyone going to be able to come up with every single possible hypothetical situation to ask about potential candidates' actions/beliefs regarding said hypothetical situation? And even if we could, how would we know that what they say in answer to a hypothetical questions is really what they will do if something similar really happens? For instance, Bush seemed like a pretty good guy to about half the country when he first ran. But did anyone know what kind of decisions he would make regarding this "war," or even that there would be an attack that might provoke him to start one? And I just made another point that you probably missed. Only about half the voters voted for him. And many people can't vote for various reasons (can't get to the polls, aren't citizens, etc.). Our system is such that the majority of the country gets the opposite of what they want. And we can't even change that, because the power is out of our hands.

It's a stupid system, yes. The U.S. government sucks. But to blame the entire population of a country for the decisions that its government makes is ignorant and unfair.

[Slade]

Spoon, re. Bush: I saw him set his sights on Iraq in 2001. I only expected him to cut taxes and raise the defense budget at the same time in 2000, though.

And yeah, we're not really in control of the government, nor have we ever been. The best we get is trying to elect the politician we hate the least. (The morons around here just reelected a governor who is pushing a plan through the county legislator to take half of the area's Sate-funded school budgets to fix its own "budget problems.") Dumb people plus poor system of government means we're not really responsible. I don't think it's fair that you expect us to either take responsibility for our leaders or live with the shit without complaint or start burning stuff down and starting a violent revolution.

And just get over yourself about the fact that the US has different electrical output. I suppose you'll start bitching about how we don't use PAL next?

This post has been edited by Slade: 04 December 2007 - 10:12 PM
Reason for edit:: (sp)

[Spoon Poetic]

Yes, I know, everyone saw Bush set his sights on Iraq in 2001. But people voted for him in 2000, before anyone could have foreseen this stuff happening and so couldn't consider it when they made their voting decision. So I don't really get what you're trying to argue.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 04 December 2007 - 10:15 PM

[Slade]

I'm not really trying to argue anything. From the start, I saw he was a crook, but that's a given for a politician, and I saw he was as dumb as a box of rocks, which was really worrisome, but yeah, I didn't think he'd bomb Afghanistan and Iraq either.

[Spoon Poetic]

That's all I meant. The people that voted for him thought he was the better candidate (given the limited amount of information that is easily accessible about any given politician in the first place), and had no idea what he would actually do in office. The American people do NOT control the government.

[civilian_number_two]

If Bush keeps pushing it, and foreign countries continue to lose confidence in the dollar, the Euro and the Pound will pick up more and more, and the US will lose its place in the world economy. Bush could be the President responsible for beginning the decline of the United States.

[J m HofMarN]

I think people should at least take some responsibility for their own government. Its fine if your government is dragging off your family and you dont want to do something about it, thats your choice. But when you let your government bomb someone else's family without taking action you pretty much share responsibility in my view, and in the terrorist's view as well. Anyone interested in stopping terrorism should promptly get their asses involved in the political process or in some sort of scheme to bring justice to American war criminals. Waving flags and tying yellow ribbons round the old oak tree just aint cutting it.

Americans are still voluntarily joining the army, we still voluntarily allow half of our tax dollars to be used for said military, and there is a very, very serious chance we'll elect someone who will continue Bush's policies. At what point do you people admit that the American people are responsible? The food we enjoy, the quality of living here, the crumbs we steal from the tables of the capitalist land lords, these are all bought with blood. The lifestyle that middle and lower class Americans have isn't because we're hard workers, it's because the droplets that trickle from the slovenly gobs of the bourgeoise, the remains of what they pillage from the rest of the world, are more than most people are getting.

If the exploiting class here were not so wealthy (due to imperialism and militarism) the workers here would be in such a state that revolution would be inevitable, that it would be necessary to overthrow the existing system simply to survive. But we're comfortable because the capitalists can allow a little of their wealth to slip down. Not because they're benevolent, but because they take so much from other people.

And that is the deal that we all make. You give me a cut of what you steal and I won't say nothin. I'll keep quiet. As long as we're all taken care of, as long as the capitalists give us the remnants of their feast, the workers, who should stand in solidarity with their brethren worldwide, do nothing. This is indecent. It's corrupt and it means that every silent American citizen has blood on their hands. I personally accept responsibility for what the US government does. I haven't done nearly enough to stop them, and so I readily admit to being a party to the mass murder going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, and those purpetrated by US puppet states.

I'm looking for things to be done about it. And if that eventually means the cessation of my life, my blood running in a gutter like at Kent State, or in some foreign country, or in some government execution chamber, then it is no bother to me, because I am already guilty as an accessory to what the Bush regime has done.

Anyone who intends to shirk responsibility for the crimes of their country aught to be able to truthfully state that they have spilled their blood to prevent those crimes. That they have done whatever might be done to protect the rest of the world from their elected government representatives.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 05 December 2007 - 02:26 AM

[z e w b]

There are still Bush loyalists? I live in Texas and I've yet to find anyone that doesn't hate his guts.

[Spoon Poetic]

Right, because we little peons can do so much. You haven't done anything. Even if you're "looking" to do something, if you finally come up with something, I doubt it would make the change you're looking for, and if it would, you wouldn't succeed. Nothing short of a bloody revolution (which isn't something I would look forward to) is going to bring about a quick change in our system. And these days, that wouldn't be looked upon fondly by other countries and we'd still be the butthole of the world. I do what I can by voting for who I think is right for the Senate, spreading the word if I hear something that needs to be known, etc.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 05 December 2007 - 01:27 PM
Reason for edit:: To use the "reason for edit" box! ...also, there were too many "etc."s

[J m HofMarN]

That's at something. I didnt say you had to pick up a gun, that stage hasnt been reached yet. I vote, and I attend protests and try to spread the word through my writing. But the vast majority of Americans don't even bother to know what the government is doing, much less take part in the process of choosing the government. In Venezuela there was a sixty percent turn out for Hugo Chavez's referendum, and that was considered a low turn out. That referendum only effected Venezuela, but for an election where the people decide between shooting people in a country whose government wants us there (democrats) or shooting people in a country and then hanging their government (republicans) the turn out is dramatically lower.

The attitude in the US is shameful. fifty years of terror, murder, oppression and the destruction of hope, and the claim is that it's just a few people who, gosh darnit, just keep getting elected? There is something seriously wrong with a nation that went into Vietnam, killed 2 million people, and then a few years later decides to do it again.The leaders wont take responsibility for these unecessary imperialist conflicts, and neither will the people. So everyone just wanders about feeling good about themselves until its time to drop some agent orange on another third world country.