[MyPantsAreOnFire]

uh... yeah...

if i didn't know any better, I'd swear they were trying to make him look like a bad guy of some kind.

Yeah, real scary.

Like I said, that scene combined with Leia's bikini-fest is just some really dodgy shit to toss in a film that the "brains" behind said was more geared for a younger audience than the previous two. I like my Star Wars bad guys to be big, "classic" supervillains, not skeevy sexual predators, which is basically all Jabba amounted to. If we're to be shown that he's such a scary villain, show him offing or ordering the death of someone who is supposed to be "impressive," like, say, the every-so-useless Boba Fett. I have no idea why he would do such a thing...I'm just tossing it out there as something that would far better build up a character as someone we're clearly supposed to see as an intimidating and threatening villain in the mold of what we've seen so far as opposed to some pervert who offs his abused sex slave when she doesn't let him molest her.

I know it's almost cliche to pile on Lucas at this point, but what the hell was he thinking with the slave girl stuff? Look, if you want to play up Jabba's "decadent" side a little, fine, but randomly dropping this scene of some scantily clad woman pleading for her life and then executed in such a way that the film really lingers on her abject terror and her gruesome demise (made even more explicit in the special edition) just really stands out like a sore thumb not only in a pseudo-kids film, but the entire goddamn series.

I know I'm playing armchair psychiatrist here, but didn't Lucas go through his divorce either during filming of RotJ or just before it? His marriage crumbles as his wife leaves him and we're all "treated" to a scene of a female character resisting the advances of a male character, trying to get away from him, so he gleefully punishes her in a way so she can never escape? Jeez, Georgie, why don't you tell us how you really feel? Wait, we get to see the one strong recurring female character "defiled" and then enslaved? Oh, and then Luke and co. are going to be fed to a giant vagina with teeth? Phew, good thing that they can escape after Luke's schlong-like lightsaber erupts from the head of the equally phallic R2-D2. Too bad that they then have to save the day from the giant metallic breast in space, complete with nipple-of-death, that's threatening the entire galaxy.

Honestly, I don't know what's weirder...that all that stuff is in a "kid's film" or that I'm odd/obsessed/pathetic enough to think I see it.

[Just your average movie goer]

Actually, I've never thought about that scene in exactly THAT way before... but you may be right. Lucas WAS going through his divorce at that time, wasn't he?

Way to seperate his work from his personal life, hey?

[civilian_number_two]

Well, I wouldn't go as far as you're going, but Lucas has a bad sense of violence. The guys getting ripped in half by the two-headed dragon in WILLOW seemed out of place for me, given the kiddie-film feel of the rest of it. And the human sacrifice with the ripped-out heart - on second thought, let's not start on TEMPLE OF DOOM.

[Just your average movie goer]

Yeah, it's probably best that we don't. Those WERE good times though.

Anyway, I didn't really have time to comment further before but I thought I'd defend my stance on the scene in question.

Barend's comment is interesting for me... this notion that they were establishing Jabba as a bad guy. I don't really think that was what they were doing though. I think Lucas thought it was a good way to introduce the rancor. This suggests that Lucas was already getting into the habit of beating his audience over the head with the obvious. We get a perfectly adequate introduction to the rancor when Luke falls in the pit... and the rancor appears!

But on the concept of setting up Jabba as a real bad guy, 'My pants are on fire' is right. This sets Jabba up as a sleaze and in fact, everything about Jabba's palace establishes Jabba as a sleazy sex offender, not a business operator. The palace is more like an illegal brothel than the headquarters of a galactic smuggling ring.

Also, why set Jabba up as an uber-evil character anyway? He doesn't have to be that. If anything, I'd probably set him up as someone you could, if not sympathise with, at least understand. You've basically got a businessman with a lot of operations running at any given time and even more employees and contractors... and he's got one guy who's ripped him off big time and is refusing to pay up. So Jabba's got his reputation and business at stake here. Of course, he'd try to make an example of Han. So you see, he needn't be a senselessly nasty villain. He would have been better presented as a ruthless businessman or at the worst, some kind of mafia boss.

Furthermore, the sickness of his character in that scene has further reaching consequences than just our perception of Jabba. It affects Han too. You need to remember that Han used to work for this guy. At one stage, they were probably even pals. Now Han was of course a little bit of a fringe dweller but he was never evil. So if Jabba was the kind of person who sexually molested and murdered innocent women, then I don't think Han would have ever got involved with him in the first place. As an aside, I also don't think Han would ever have worked for a giant slug either. Han is cool. Giant bloated slugs are not. Cool guys and giant bloated slugs do not hang out together.

But when all is said and done, the main complaint with the scene is that it just doesn't belong in a 'Star Wars' movie. If I want to see violent sexual offences against women, I'd see... well, I don't know what I would see because I would never want to watch something like that. However, I certainly wouldn't look for it in a 'Star Wars' film.


And on a lighter note... I realised I had forgotten something in my quick little summary of Return of the Jedi's flaws before:

That is the way almost everyone acts out of character. Han is particularly different this time round; so much so that you're left wondering whether hibernation sickness had any other side-effects.

However, what they do with Vader is truly awful. It really feels like they neutered him. Gone is the fire, the intimidation and the calculating ambition. In their stead, we have a placid wimp of a man who spends most of the movie being pushed around by the emperor and by his son.

"You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master."

"Hey, what happened to that offer of destroying the emperor and ruling the galaxy? Is that still good?"

"Um... sorry, Luke. That was powerful Vader. I'm neutered Vader. Anyway, I've gotta take you to the emperor. The emperor said I had to..."

Bring me back that ruthless sociopath who throttled every officer who ticked him off and felt quite at ease using the telekinisis force-trick to hurl an onslaught of heavy objects at his opponent.

That was the Vader we all knew and loved.

[Sailor Abbey]

I know its silly, but ROTJ is my favorite Star Wars movie.

This may be directly related to the fact that we owned ESB and watched it every day of every week of every month and so on until I was old enough to move out of the house. (I have two younger brothers).

When I was about 13, we finally located an old copy of ROTJ, ( I had seen it many times before, but it had been a while) and after years of only watching ESB, it was so nice to see Luke dressed in black and acting like he had some balls - it was so nice to see all the characters I knew and loved saying something - saying ANYTHING different than what I’d heard them say for the past 7 years prior.

We went from watching ESB every morning before we went outside to play to watching ROTJ every morning before we went outside to play. It was just so nice to have a change that I am still able to overlook every last flaw the film has to this very day.

ESB IS a better film… but ROTJ will always be first in my heart for reasons stated above.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Well, I wouldn't go as far as you're going, but Lucas has a bad sense of violence. The guys getting ripped in half by the two-headed dragon in WILLOW seemed out of place for me, given the kiddie-film feel of the rest of it. And the human sacrifice with the ripped-out heart - on second thought, let's not start on TEMPLE OF DOOM.

Good points. I'm likely looking waaaaaaaay too far into things as opposed to just realizing it's George "Hamfist" Lucas striking again.

Barend's comment is interesting for me... this notion that they were establishing Jabba as a bad guy. I don't really think that was what they were doing though. I think Lucas thought it was a good way to introduce the rancor. This suggests that Lucas was already getting into the habit of beating his audience over the head with the obvious. We get a perfectly adequate introduction to the rancor when Luke falls in the pit... and the rancor appears!

Don't forget that it's further beaten over our head when we see the rancor eat the pig guard, making the death of the dancer even more redundant.

Hey, if Lucas' intention was to make Jabba seem like a pervert and a sadist, mission accomplished. Why anyone would want to work for him and how he got all of his power, I have no clue. And why would he vene be "into" human-looking women in the first place? He's a giant space slug...does that make him technically into beastiality, too? Man, what a scuzz...

This post has been edited by MyPantsAreOnFire: 01 June 2007 - 10:17 AM

[TruJade]

I think I remember Jabba
being a little slimeball in TPM
while a larger slimeball called the shots
in the podracing scene.

So the role of 'dirty mob boss'
is mostlikely inherited rather than earned.
As for why he has the hots for a women of
another race it could be her status.

Degrading Leia could've been
some sick enjoyment of his.
Or he just likes the way she moves....
Besides isn't it possible that Jabba is really

attracted to female humans and Twi'leks?

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Besides isn't it possible that Jabba is really

attracted to female humans and Twi'leks?

Wouldn't that be like one of us thinking a water buffalo is really hot?

[TruJade]

my friend strager things have happened
I can't believe this but im gonna

ask you to see ,if you havent already,
Clerks 2 then you'll understand

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Jabba probably is a donkey-fucker. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

[Sailor Abbey]

Jabba probably is a donkey-fucker. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

Or perhaps an uncle-fucker.

[barend]

you know, in Jabba's defence...

If I had a Rancor, I'd be feeding every second person left, right, and center.

having the gamorian guard being eaten was very neccessary.

it's steps:
1. girl disapears down a trap door, everyone watches, bestly sound, screams, entertainment.
2. visual contact, beast clearly eats anyone and everyone, a bit of horror
3. this is the foe our hero must defeat

it's tacky, but it works well enough.

Jabba was more of a hedonistic, indulgent, sadistic roman emporer than a godfather type crime boss... which is funny because the actual emporer was more like a godfather...

hmmm...

anyway, back to the point. I do think that Jabba was well set up in the other films and what we got at the begenning of ROTJ always seemed a little off the mark, but personally i like randomness. If i had one non-bobbafett related roblem with the whole jabba situation, it's that the whole thing was a little to comical and not sinister enough. having jabba impulsivley react to the dancer sets him up as someone who's used to gettting what he wants but its almost like a spoilt kid. I would have prefered the addition of an encounter with someone else who owed jabba money. In fact having bobba fett bringing in the said person would have been half way decent excuse to have him there too. but it would have better established jabbas postition in the greater scheme of things.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

you know, in Jabba's defence...

If I had a Rancor, I'd be feeding every second person left, right, and center.

having the gamorian guard being eaten was very neccessary.

it's steps:
1. girl disapears down a trap door, everyone watches, bestly sound, screams, entertainment.
2. visual contact, beast clearly eats anyone and everyone, a bit of horror
3. this is the foe our hero must defeat

it's tacky, but it works well enough.

Jabba was more of a hedonistic, indulgent, sadistic roman emporer than a godfather type crime boss... which is funny because the actual emporer was more like a godfather...

hmmm...

anyway, back to the point. I do think that Jabba was well set up in the other films and what we got at the begenning of ROTJ always seemed a little off the mark, but personally i like randomness. If i had one non-bobbafett related roblem with the whole jabba situation, it's that the whole thing was a little to comical and not sinister enough. having jabba impulsivley react to the dancer sets him up as someone who's used to gettting what he wants but its almost like a spoilt kid. I would have prefered the addition of an encounter with someone else who owed jabba money. In fact having bobba fett bringing in the said person would have been half way decent excuse to have him there too. but it would have better established jabbas postition in the greater scheme of things.

Exactly. I love the visual impact of Jabba being a giant space slug, but then his character and everyone around him are set up in such a way that they never really seem that threatening unless you stand on the exact right spot on the floor, which is apparently something that everyone very generously does.

[TruJade]

Somehow i always felt the
laughing shrimp that

Salacious Crumb character

discredited jabba,
made him less serious

[Toru-chan]

certain points of view.

I love that. "Of course I was speeding officer... from a certain point of view." "Of course I have a gaping hole in my plot you could drive a truck through... from a certain point of view."

if i didn't know any better, I'd swear they were trying to make him look like a bad guy of some kind.

Then show him smoking cigars with Michael Milken, Kenneth Lay and Darth Chenney, outsourcing no-bid Imperial Contracts. Halliburton Galactic could even move their Corporate HQ to Tatooine, zero taxes and all.