[barend]

even 'cool world' worked 'cause the actors were told what they'd be talkining to!!! I don't get the impression that that's what happened with any of the PT.

LOTR uses CGI where props can't be used to convice us of something or building armor for 10000 orcs would be impossible. NOT where a couple milligrams of make up could have been used, or a wall of styrofoam painted, or an existing desert less than 100 miles from the studio could be shot!!!

the secret is neccesity, not availability!!!

This post has been edited by barend: 12 April 2004 - 12:47 AM

[civilian_number_two]

I also found out that in the Empire Strikes Back, there was a woman involved in the writing process called Leigh Brackett. Tragically, Leigh Brackett died of cancer before the movie was completed.

Leigh Brackett was a Sci-fi/Fantasy author of some reputation who had also tried her hand at pulp detective stuff. She wrote the screenplay for THE LONG GOODBYE and collaborated with William Faulkner on the screenplays for THE BIG SLEEP and TO HAVE AND HAVE NOT. All told she had more than a dozen screenwriting credits to her name before coming to THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, more still if you count her television work.

Leigh Brackett's screenplay for THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is one of those impossible artifacts, long sought-after by hardcore STAR WARS fans but simply impossible to find. Only a first draft, it was rejected by Lucas and would not have seen wide circulation. Lucas himself doctored it up a bit before handing it on to Lawrence Kasdan, who would also be the screenwrieter of the INDIANA JONES films, and who was a writer and director in his own right.

We will never know how much influence Brackett had on THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, which is too bad. That's the sort of behind-the-scenes revelation that the fans want, rather than the background footage of puppets and fx men that tend to fill DVD "extras".

[Just your average movie goer]

Thank you Civilian Number Two for the information about Leigh Brackett. By the sounds of her experience and her extensive contributions to the literary and film world, she must have been a writer of very high standard.

I guess maybe people like Lawrence Kasdan, or anyone else involved with that part of The Empire Strikes Back, might be able to tell more about Leigh's contribution to the film. But I think you're right that the DVDs will probably not include anything as interesting as that... sadly.

And I guess we'll never know the full extent of Leigh's contribution without seeing that screenplay she wrote.

But it seems more and more that The Empire Strikes Back is the great film it is because of other people involved in the project - and that Lucas could not have pulled it off by himself.

I also wonder why Lucas didn't even TRY to make the new Star Wars movies as good as The Empire Strikes Back. If I was him, I would have sat down and watched it very carefully to see all the elements that made it such a great film... and then use these things for the prequels...

eg. a strong ensemble of characters (instead of no-fun Obi Wan and Anakin the jerk), the sense of mysticism (jedis as "luminous beings", not guys with a high count of midi-chlorians), a strong charismatic bad guy (Darth Vader vs Count Dookoo and his CGI friends), etc, etc...

What was he thinking when he started work on the prequels - did he want to make three great films or did he want to make lots of money from little kids with rich parents?

[Chefelf]

Sounds like someone needs a designated director.

("It's ok George, just give me the keys...")

Friends don't let friends make The Phantom Menace.

I guess maybe people like Lawrence Kasdan, or anyone else involved with that part of The Empire Strikes Back, might be able to tell more about Leigh's contribution to the film. But I think you're right that the DVDs will probably not include anything as interesting as that... sadly.

It was undoubtedly the combination of Lucas/Kasdan/Kershner that made ESB so great. Lucas's strength has always been in ideas and concepts. He can come up with some interesting ideas but those ideas are best when tempered by someone else. Kasdan's writing of Lucas's ideas made for an excellent screenplay. What furthered the execution of the screenplay was Kershner's direction.

I think the combination of those three elements (conception, writing and direction) are what make for a truly great movie. They don't always need to be contained in three different people but getting those elements together is what really matters.

What was he thinking when he started work on the prequels - did he want to make three great films or did he want to make lots of money from little kids with rich parents?

I sincerely believd that Lucas, above all else, want's to prove that he is a great film maker. Sure, he's failing terribly but that, I think, is the most important thing to him. That and being in absolute control of all aspects of his movies.

"That is why you fail."

[Just your average movie goer]

You know, I think you may be right, Chefelf. I've probably had Lucas figured all wrong. Maybe instead of being a shameless sell-out to commercialism, he should be an object of pity... and a warning to any wannabe film-makers to think carefully about whether they can really make good films or not.

Is he married these days, by the way? Someone earlier mentioned that perhaps having the support of his wife helped him out when he made The Empire Strikes Back and I remembered that he and his wife were divorced not long after that (which he uses as an excuse for why Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom was such a bloody awful movie: "I was going through a divorce at the time" - Lucas. Sorry, Civilian Number Two. Lucas must have had a large role in that particular Indy film because it was written by his idiot friends, who also wrote Howard the Duck. But I happily agree with you that Raiders was a Spielberg film).

Anyway, I digress (again!)... I guess I'm wondering if Lucas re-married or not. Perhaps if he had the support of a loving partner, he may not have made those silly prequels. You know, an intelligent woman could have said to him. "George, dear. You've made a great trilogy of movies that will be loved for generations. Be happy. You don't need to prove yourself..."

I think Chefelf, you put it best "Friends don't let friends make The Phantom Menace." Very true. And I really loved that quote, by the way... I had a good chuckle when I read it. You have a way with words.

[Despondent]

So we presume Lucas has real friends?

on one of the web docs there's some lady hanging onto Lucas' arm as he swaggers and makes some "brilliant" comment to his lackeys. I don't know where I heard it, but I've always been under the impression that a wife of his helped write the star wars novel in the early seventies.

[civilian_number_two]

Sorry, Civilian Number Two. Lucas must have had a large role in that particular Indy film because it was written by his idiot friends, who also wrote Howard the Duck. But I happily agree with you that Raiders was a Spielberg film.

You're absolutely right. Lucas was involved in all three, as much as Spielberg. And yes, Spielberg is nearly as capable of Lucas of churning out terrible stuff. Difference is, even his bad stuff has good acting in it, since he was always more interested in the characters and in the stories than in the effects. So even a terrible line like "No time for love, Doctor Jones!" or, the "one strong sleep of Kali!" (paraphrased) come off as sincerely as possible.

But to give the devil his due, a great strength the IJ films have over the PT is that they have HARRISSON FORD in them, and he has enough charm that he can outperform even a bad Lucas screenplay. He also ad-libs and brings up his own ideas on the day, and the films benefi from the input. From what I hear, the PT actors were so underinformed about what they were making that there was no room to insert character detail.

[Ferris Wiel]

The Lore of ESB:

George Lucas - Literally "The Force" in the Star Wars universe, especially in ESB. He works mysteriously and in this case he was capable of generating a good overall idea. He governed best where he governed least, easily managed because of his involvement in Raiders tying up most of his time. Be it known, though, that he was responsible for the major plot points and was no slack in these (perhaps excepting the Vader as father thing, forgivable, though).

Alan Dean Foster - Wrote the novelization of ANH and the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye. For those who may not be aware, Foster was more than likely tapped to write the sequel in the early phases before Lucas could secure Harrison Ford to return as Solo. All signs point to it since the novel covers many of the topics touched on in the earlier drafts of the Star Wars (ANH) script (available at starwarz.com on the Jedibendu Starkiller site.) The sequel he wrote, when rejected became the novel.

Leigh Brackett - Wrote a "script" for a Star Wars sequel, barely finished, retouched by Lucas, according to Kasdan was more of an outline and not very cogent. All involved speak highly of her - talented writer, kind woman, tragedy that she died, but little of her script was maintained.

Lawrence Kasdan - Wrote THE script. He took the ideas of Lucas and formed it and filled it with interesting character development and ingenious plots/subplots all intermingling to create a wordperfect script.

Irvin Kirschner - What good is a wordperfect script if you don't have a man who can bring the vision to screen, though? "Kirsch" took his solid skills as a director and, gruff and unpleasant as he may have been, coached the best overall performances out of a SW ensemble cast ever. He knew exactly what to pursue and what not to, being willing to give up a shot if it wasn't working out. He also basically told GL to go to hell every time there was a directorial challenge. In a way, while he paved the success of ESB, it ultimately would be the end of SW because Lucas would never allow a strong director to make a SW film ever again. Oh, he also pissed off Kasdan because he stripped lines down and out or re-wrote them on the fly because of the way the scene was flowing in action didn't match the way it flowed on paper.

Gary Kurtz - The glue that held ANH and ESB together, without Kurtz you get ROTJ and the PT. The exact opposite of Rick McCallum, Kurtz was somebody who Lucas respected. All the way back at American Graffiti, Kurtz was there to tell George what worked and what didn't. He perhaps understood Star Wars better than Lucas did and without the weight of Kurtz to keep Lucas' feet on the ground, the rest of the series has floated away into stupidity.

--FW

[CowboyCurtis]

Bravo!!

You've nailed it perfectly!!

[Jordan]

Rick McCallum

Do any of you know this man's past work? He strikes me as a total sleeze bag. I 've seen how he acts and talks on the DVD extras, total shputz.

His phone call to Ewan Mcgregor, on the DVD documentary of TPM, is perfect example of how this peice of slime works.

"dude, I'm like so fucking happy, this is going to be so great, so special, and I'm so happy".

[Ferris Wiel]

It would appear that Rick McCallum has never been associated with a quality project. It has always been either re-makes, sequels, prequels or most of his occasional original productions being utter shit.

His list according to the Imbecile Movie DataBase:

Pennies From Heaven - Alleged scene for scene re-make of a Bob Hoskins BBC mini-series with Steve Martin and Bernadette Peters in lead roles. Even better that it was a dramatic musical and not surprisingly a box-office bomb.

Radioland Murders - Not entertaining, not original, largely stupid but with a brief showcase of tits. I wanted very badly to see the film when it first came out. By the time I rented it and viewed I could only barely sit through it due to *surprise* poor pacing and bad scripts. A preview for the PT? Yes.

Young Indiana Jones Chronicles - Obviously derivative, but more than that a poor showing on television for a legendary film series. He said they tested out much of the PT in concepts from this TV show. I hope not. While Sean Patrick Flannery was decent, most everything else about the show was less than stellar. Ho-hum.

Star Wars OT - Special Editions - Besides producing this nonsense and being the front man and potential fallguy for Lucas if they flopped, McCallum was also the press whore for this endeavor. Oh, and let's not forget that he crammed his fat ass into a Stormtrooper uniform for a cameo.

Star Wars PT - Yes-man to Lucas, the exact opposite of Gary Kurtz, he is the dummy for Lucas' vaudeville act. Somebody get the hook ready, because I smell early curtains for this show. He got another cameo *surprise again* and probably arranged for the boy-bands to be involved before public outcry shut it down. If Georgie's hand is all that's up this guy's ass I'll be shocked, particularly when I heard in one of the documentaries that they picked the location for the romantic scenes while vacationing together in Italy.

--FW

[Just your average movie goer]

Wow - I'm always amazed at how interesting these discussion forums get. I guess that's why this is the first internet discussion forum I ever joined...

Lucas/Prequel hate club? Who could resist?

But I guess the really cool thing about it is that everyone is on the same side here and people make a lot of really interesting points and provide good information... I've learned a lot in this discussion:

- the information about Leigh Brackett
- the contribution of Lawrence Kasdan
- the strength of Irvin Kirschner as a director and how he called all the shots.
- the fact that George changed producers after The Empire Strikes Back and how
affected the future films.
- that Gary Kurtz was really cool
- that Rick McCallum sounds like a real wanker

Following the really good discussions about why the Empire Strikes Back is so great, I was always a little unsure of Lawrence Kasdan because he was still onboard for Return of the Jedi and that was when the magic of Star Wars died its first death (not as horrible as the long agonising death it's going through now - but still a heavy blow, especially as it was the movie that ended the series).

However, I'm willing to suscribe to the theory that maybe Lucas took control away from Lawrence as well as getting rid of a director who had the strength of will to call the shots.

Anyway, I won't go on... I just wanted to say that this discussion's been really interesting... and it keeps getting better and better....

[Mike Mac from NYU]

I still dont see what everyone's problem is with ROTJ. I mean besides the fucking Ewoks taking out an entire legion of Stormtroopers, I thought it was the 2nd best flick in the trilogy

My sentiments exactly, guest. And I liked the Ewoks!! Too many people being overcritical and having different expectations of ROTJ based on ESB. That's what you can chalk it up too. Indeed ROTJ is the 2nd best movie of OT. MANY thinks so, just three people of note on this forum think otherwise. But I am not gonna open that can of worms today :yuck: !!!! Different strokes for different folks.

[Just your average movie goer]

I don't really want to start a heated debate with you guys who think that Return of the Jedi is a tolerable Star Wars movie but I thought it a little odd that you think it is better than the original Star Wars.

There was never a dull moment in the original Star Wars. It moved at a terrific pace from the moment it started to the moment it finished. Absolutely amazing openning sequence - quickly transported to an exotic world... and I'd like to mention for anyone who does not know this, that the Tatooine of Star Wars was filmed in Tunisia in northern Africa and it looks amazing. The Tatooine of Return of the Jedi was filmed in California, in a desert that while it was a good desert, was not nearly as amazing as Tunisia. Also, personally speaking, I was always disappointed that Return of the Jedi used a locale that we've already seen. This is a space opera spanning a galaxy... they should try to introduce many exciting new worlds in each movie, not revisit old ones. Jabba the Hutt should also not have been a slug with guards who used axes. He is the head of a freakin' galaxy wide smuggling ring. He should have been a charming human gangster played by someone who could act like Jack Nicholsan and lived somewhere bustling with all his kind of scum. Prior to seeing Return of the Jedi, I envisioned a kind of space port, like a huge city in space with artificial gravity and air systems, etc (a lot like the Nar Shadaa level in the game Dark Forces if anyone knows it - BEST STAR WARS GAME EVER!). And it'd be a kind of trading place where space farers stopped by to re-fuel their ships, take rest... and it'd be full of cool bars and clubs, frequented by pirates, bounty hunters and smugglers, a place that the Empire either didn't know about or ignored..... and when Luke rescued Han Solo, they'd have this big urban-warfare style fight, steal a ship and have a little dog-fighting between the skyscrapers before clearing the station's gravity and making the jump to hyperspace. SIGH.... if only I'd been old enough at the time and Lucas had asked for my advice. I hate the openning of Return of the Jedi... and even Leia's gold bikini can't save it for me....

Anyway, where was I? Ah, yes.... the amazing pacing of the original Star Wars...

It was such an exciting trip! You meet Luke and then you're taken out into the dangerous wild regions of Tatooine where you encounter the Sand People and honestly speaking, they really scared the hell out of me when I first saw them. And when that guy jumps Luke, I jumped too - out of my skin! And then we meet Ben and hear all about Luke's father, the Jedi, the empire.... it really pulled me into another world.

The constant cuts to what the bad guys were doing? Loved it! It was kind of like those fun old western... here's what the Sheriff and his guys are doing - now let's see what those scoundrel outlaws are up to... I love that stuff and it works so well in Star Wars (but it's hardly used now in the prequels, sadly).

And Mos Eisley and the Star Wars cantina! That is the coolest cantina! I love that scene... that is the one scene in all the movies where you feel the most just how large and exciting Lucas' galaxy is. All those creatures - all the mayhem, the music, the little fights and the way that's just another day for anyone in that bar.

Han Solo - what an entrance. And Harrison Ford is charming throughout. Honestly, Lucas should have put a Han type character in the prequels. You need a rogue, you need a bit of fun and charisma. Han is just one of the best characters ever created - period. But I've gotta tell you Return of the Jedi lovers, that Han was no more in that movie. He seemed old, bored, tired, uncharismatic... his lines were crap and Harrison didn't seem to care about trying to make them sound any better. "You have hibernation sickness. Your eyesight will return in time - however your personality, charm and energy may be permanently lost."

Okay - back to Star Wars. The shoot-out with the storm troopers with the Mellenium Falcon blasting it's way out of Mos Eisley. I still get a thrill every time I see this and I've seen it more times than I can remember (easily over 100, maybe over 1000 - I kid you not!). Star Wars ALWAYS feels fresh to me. It hasn't aged... I enjoy it every bit as much as I did the very first time I saw it.

Then when the Mellenium Falcon comes on the Death Star, the pace just picks up even more.... the detention cell break-in, Han's conversation with the Imperial officer on the communicator, the fight in the cell-bay, the garbage compactor, the heroes splitting up and having their own run-ins with the storm troopers, Ben's fight with Darth Vader, the Mellenium Falcon's mad dash away from the Death Star...

The rebel alliance! Ah, it's amazing when you first go to the rebel's base, isn't it? The whole time, they've been this secret organisation we're always hearing about, Luke gets so excited every time he hears it mentioned and so do we... and finally, we meet them at the end of the movie and it is EXCELLENT!!!

And that space battle at the end... it was so tense... and so powerful.... all the experienced pilots have tried to hit the thermal exhaust port and they've failed... they've been taken out. And who is taking them out but Darth Vader himself! One by one, they're all gone and Luke is alone... he can't fight Vader because the guy is behind him, even though he doesn't know who it is... and the clock is ticking down... there is only seconds left and suddenly Han comes out of nowhere to the rescue and the rest is history....

AH! Can it get any better than this? Star Wars is a rollercoaster of a ride from the second you step on till the moment you have to get off. This is what movies should deliver... Star Wars delivered more in those two hours than most other movies ever made. I've only very rarely had that feeling, where you finish watching a movie and thought "Wow, I got so much stuff for those few hours!"...

Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Groundhog Day & The Fellowship of the Ring

I don't want to completely ditch Return of the Jedi.... there are some really incredible scenes in that movie that are some of the most amazing things I've ever seen....

The space battle is the most incredible space battle ever filmed - no contest. There is so much stuff going on, the pacing is perfect, the soundtrack is wonderful, the sequence of events is fantastic.... and at no point does it fall into some kind of pointless malee where you can't follow what the hell's going on (like that stupid clone fight at the end of Episode II where there's a million CGI's blasting each other, a million silly ships, a billion lasers going all over the screen and it just makes you switch off)...

And the way the Emperor pits Luke against Darth Vader is excellent... it is so tense and they did very well making us care for Darth Vader and realising the bond between the father and the son. And the final fight between Luke and Darth Vader was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. I thought this is a worthy conclusion to the Star Wars saga. THIS is powerful stuff.

The Emperor, I thought was a bit disappointing (I wish they'd used the same actor they used in the Empire Strikes Back because he was a lot more mysterious and also for the sake of continuity). He shouldn't have been introduced so early. The first time the audience should have seen him was the first time Luke saw him - it's just common sense as far as plot and dramatic structure go. But when he stopped being a gloating old fool who kept on saying "Good, good.... heh heh heh... everything is proceeding to plan... heh heh." and showed his true power and the deep hatred he harboured within him, he was scary and he looked impressive. That said I always wondered about the silly little interruption with Han blowing up the shield generator... the Emperor says "So be it, Jedi." and then we cut to Han for a few minutes and come back to Luke and the Emperor standing exactly where they were when we last saw them and the Emperor says "If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed."

As soon as he said, "So be it, Jedi.", he should have just let Luke have it. I mean, what were they doing in the interim?

Luke - "I'm sorry. I'm not going to change my mind about this."
Emperor - "There's no way I can persuade you?"
Luke - "No, sorry."
Emperor - "Ah, pity."
Luke - "Ah, well, that's life isn't it?"
Emperor - "True."
Luke - "So can I go now?"
Emperor - "Um.... I don't know... "
Luke - "Um... yes?"
Emperor - "Actually, you know, I think I want to kill you now."
Luke, a little dejected - "Oh."

Anyway, once the Emperor proceeded to let Luke have it (should have held onto your lightsaber, shouldn't you, Luke?), the tension was so thick you would have to get a knife to cut it and when Darth Vader threw the Emperor down the generator, it was amazing. I don't know who thought of the idea of briefly showing Darth Vader's part-human, part-mechanical skeleton as the lightning hit him - but I hope they paid him well. It was just a fleeting moment - but it really counted. And the concept that a Sith lord as powerful as the Emperor exploded when he died was fantastic....

And the chaos that we get afterwards with the destruction of the Executor (the Super Star Destroyer) and Darth Vader's death scene.... wow! Father and son having the most important conversation they've ever had and the last one they'll ever get... so serene.... while everything is falling to pieces around them... I was really moved by that.... it was powerful stuff. And Luke's escape just in the nick of time with Lando's own narrow escape moments later before the whole station blows..... WOW! That was fantastic stuff.

So rest assured, I appreciate the great things that Return of the Jedi contributed to the Star Wars experience.

However as a whole movie, it lagged. The beginning was a drag and it seems more and more dated every time I see it (as does a lot of the movie)..... the stupid annoying muppet musical number in the Special Edition did not help in any way.

The rebel's meeting was just too casual... hell, half the movie was just too casual...
compare these lines at the start of each of the original movies....

Star Wars - It is a period of civil war.
The Empire Strikes Back - It is a dark time for the Rebellion.
Return of the Jedi - Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in
an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of
the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt.

Whoa! What happened to the larger picture and short, effective opening lines?

Then that stuff on Endor... the pace just died and I felt so bored for such a long time there... and then there were the Ewoks EVERYWHERE.... and in all the good parts later in the movie, they kept cutting back to them! It was just like in Episode I when Lucas kept interrupting the lightsaber fight to show us the stupid CGI battle outside and Anakin's slapstick heroic mishaps. The Endor stuff felt like it was from a different movie!

And I got bored by all the soppy soap opera stuff they threw in with Luke and Leia's family history chat, Han getting angry at Leia and jealous of Luke.... give me a break....

And I was SO disappointed that Lucas copped out on resolving the love triangle with the two main men loving the same woman.

"Ah.... Luke and Leia are siblings so they can't together and that just leaves Han.... done! (phew)"

Wow, that was really amazing, George.

So there were just a lot of parts of the movie that lagged. I don't mean to say we shouldn't watch Return of the Jedi. We should. Anyway, it's high art compared to the prequels and stands up as a pretty strong movie compared to most movies out there. However when I watch it, the mysticism of it's predecessors is gone. I don't feel like I'm in that distant galaxy any more. I'm always aware that I'm watching a big budget Hollywood movie.

I don't know why I want to say this at this point in time - but Billy Dee Williams deserves a lot of credit for his work in Return of the Jedi. He was charismatic and energetic throughout. I enjoyed every scene with him (excepting the Jabba the Hutt one's because I have a SERIOUS issue with the way Lucas reserved the most gruesome death for any Star Wars character for a young alien woman, while Jabba's court looked on and laughed. This scene disturbed me more and more with each viewing and now, I refuse to watch that part of the movie altogether).
But I digress - I just want to say that Billy Dee Williams was great.

Okay - here is the end of my really long post ( The moral of the story is.....

As I said before, I don't want to discourage people from watching Return of the Jedi. Watch it and enjoy. If you're like me, fast forward bits you don't like. Skip to the juicy stuff at the end. If you can take the lame bits, relax and enjoy.

But I want you to remember all the wonders of the original Star Wars... that roller coaster ride that got us all hooked in the first place. Think about all the great things in it... think about the movie, remember it.. watch it again and re-live the magic....

and I think you will find that Return of the Jedi is NOT the 2nd best movie in the trilogy. When it gets over all its dull points and commercialism, Return of the Jedi delivers a powerful and satisfying conclusion to the Star Wars saga.... but after the better than perfect Empire Strikes Back, the second place truly belongs to the wonderful original film. The original Star Wars is a timeless classic. It's magic and the wonderful hold it has on us... on that part of our hearts that never wants to grow up.... will stand the test of time.