[Cyzyk]

Castro is an idiot. He's managed to turn an island with a nice climate, natural resources, and excellent tourism possibilities into a hellhole.

[Slade]

How is it a hellhole? Seriously? I just plain don't know much about the place other than standard KOMOONISTS R TEH EVUL stuff, apparently, right-wing cuban immigrants don't want anything to do with the country and don't want the US to have anything to do with it either, and some people are so desperate to leave that they sneak over to Florida in boats. (You lose points if you list things that are due to a US embargo, because that's not Cuba's fault, and no, the US not liking Cuba because of the way Cuba runs its government and the US taking action against that does not count as Cuba's fault.)

[Cyzyk]

US not liking Cuba? Cuban Missile Crisis ring a bell? Y'know, the whole business where Cuba's leader picks an ally several thousand miles away while making an enemy of the people within swimming distance? That's a HUGE mistake to make. You realize that single decision was the only provocation for the US to ever waste missiles on Cuba?

The country restricts religion, they get financial aid from Chavez and Venezuela, and their primary export, sugar, has fallen in production steadily over the last decade. These are all bad things. On top of all that, they are under a trade embargo from their nearest neighbor, the richest country in the world for the last forty or so years.

And Castro has been running the show for half a century now. He's been doing a great job, eh? The place is a mess. He blows the economy to hell and nearly gets the place nuked, and you think he's a good thing for the country?

[Slade]

Ok, so, we have "Does dumb things, does things US doesn't like, does things US doesn't like, suffers due to US sanctions, sanctions religion, and main crop export is declining." I'm aware of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Bay of Pigs and stuff. I didn't mean "What circumstances lead it to be a bad place to live." I meant "What is it that makes it such a bad place." Like... What characteristics of a hellhole does it have that makes you compare it to one (besides stifling religion, which you already mentioned)?

[J m HofMarN]

Salamander - Because Castro brought his people more freedom and opportunity than they've had in a long time.

Cyzyk:
"He's managed to turn an island with a nice climate, natural resources, and excellent tourism possibilities into a hellhole."

Castro holds 3 degrees, worked as a trial lawyer defending himself and literally hudnreds of people pro bono, he sat on the student government of his college, and ran for a Senate seat in Cuba. But of course, he must be an idiot because he chose a different ideology than you. I apologize for President Castro's ignorance.

Oh, and speaking of its "Nice climate" do you even KNOW where Cuba is? It's right down below Florida, ya know, where all the hurricanes come from? And yet year after year Cuba's civil defense plan keeps death rates lower than in the US and other Caribbean nations.

As for TURNING it into a hell hole, here's a history lesson for you:

Columbus lands on Cuba.
Spain kills or enslaves natives of Cuba, brings over more black slaves, and takes over island.
Cuban blacks, natives and poor whites continuously try to gain freedom from spain from 1800 onward and are ruthlessly put down.
US government invades Cuba and forces the "free" cuban government to:
Give American businesses free operation in Cuba, including wages as low as 100 dollars a year for the MAJORITY of workers.
Give the US government, through the Platt ammendment, the right to interfere in Cuba militarily at any time they choose.
Give the US promised low prices on exports and preferential trade status.

In other words, those natural resources you mentioned were all owned by the US, and the Cuban people suffered immensely under US-backed dictatorships, mobs and street gangs that served as the enforcement wing of whoever was in power at the time.

Castro was beaten by the police at protests. The government razed an entire neighborhood in Havana to build a park for Prio (the so-called president before Batista) to give speeches in. Organizers and other party politicians were constantly murdered so much so that even BEFORE becoming a revolutionary Castro carried a gun for protection.

"making an enemy of the people within swimming distance?"

Sir, the US is entirely responsible for any enmity borne against them by Cuba. And Cuba had to make a choice. It was either go with the US which had governed their country through dictators for over 60 years, or go with the USSR which would allow them a modicum of freedom and which Cubans had no reason to hate. Castro only joined the communist party and integrated them into Cuban state AFTER the revolution. He was never a communist until at least 1960, even if his ideas of social justice, worker empowerment, education and healthcare were "Dangerous" communist ideas.

"You realize that single decision was the only provocation for the US to ever waste missiles on Cuba?"

No it wasn't. United Fruit AKA Dole. They OWNED Cuba before the revolution. Their workers were paid pennies a day, and if they tried to unionize United Fruit hired the police or political gangs to beat them. They owned most of the resources in Cuba and all the money from it went to the US even though it was Cuban land and Cuban workers. To bring justice to these pigs Castro took the land back, took it back for the workers and for the poor, and United Fruit whined to Washington to get vengeance on a country that only took what was rightfully theirs.

"The country restricts religion"

Then why did Pope John Paul the Second visit there and dine with President Castro?

"they get financial aid from Chavez and Venezuela"

Ummm... OK. Problem? Castro returned plenty of aid to those who help Cuba. There are 10000 Cuban doctors in almost every country in Latin America helping the poor. And did I mention that this "hellhole" has the highest literacy in South America and that every citizen has free healthcare, which not even the US can match?

"they are under a trade embargo from their nearest neighbor"

And this is Castro's fault?

"He's been doing a great job, eh?"

Yes, yes he has. Literacy has skyrocketed, wages have risen, everyone can eat thanks to food subsidies, Cuba is stable and not subject to political gangs, infant mortality is lower than in many parts of the US, and most importantly for the first time in its history Cuba is a sovereign country not under the thumb of Spain or the US. God bless President Castro!

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 16 January 2007 - 10:14 PM

[Heccubus]

Moving to the debate club.
Post your crap in the right forums, please.

[Slade]

Hey, this thread is about people from North Korea visiting the Internet, not Cuba! We've had this discussion already. Please continue discussion of Cuba here.

[Salamander]

Castro is an idiot. He's managed to turn an island with a nice climate, natural resources, and excellent tourism possibilities into a hellhole.

Castro really isn’t an idiot if he has managed to stay in power for 45 years.

Salamander - Because Castro brought his people more freedom and opportunity than they've had in a long time.

Freedom and Opportunity? People are put in prison if they say anything against the government and over half of the country is unemployed.

How is it a hellhole? Seriously? I just plain don't know much about the place other than standard KOMOONISTS R TEH EVUL stuff,

Communists are Evil, thing is Cuba is not really a Communist country, it is a Socialist country, since the leadership actually does care a bit about the working class, but not to much.

[Jordan]

Ya could you trim down the picture. There was this un-written/spoken rule that nobody would put loud obnoxious pictures or avi files in their signature.

It's one of the small, but important, details that make this forum different from the rest out there. There is no eye pollution in signatures.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 18 January 2007 - 06:01 PM

[Spoon Poetic]

Yes, I would appreciate that, too. Thanks

[Cyzyk]

Whatever. You can go convince all the Cubans I know who have fled the place over the last forty years and all agree Castro is an abusive dictator. Since you don't live there, you obviously know best.

[Slade]

As stated earlier, your picture is a bit tall. I'd appreciate it as well if you'd tone it down a notch.

Jordan: Doesn't it say somewhere in the forum rules not to be obnoxious? Shouldn't big pictures count? (Salamander: It's not that bad. I'm partially teasing and mean no harm, but it is a bit big.)

[Salamander]

(There, fixed the signature, I'm sure it is not needed to make my Kim Jong Il quote funny)

I very surprised no one has tried to debate any of my points.

[J m HofMarN]

Sal- You had points?

Cyzyk-

abusive dictator

Aha, so you're taking the word of people who have left Cuba. That's a great idea. I mean look at the Iraqi exiles, those guys CLEARLY knew what was going on in THEIR country.

Also, I don't think Castro is that abusive. There's a fine line between good dictatoring and being abusive. Castro might be strict but he surely isn't abusive, he just wants to raise a good socialist Utopia, and keep his kids from running around with that nasty America guy, cuz he's a bad influence. Castro is just a concerned dictator.

[Salamander]

Have you met Castro?