[Mike Mac from NYU]

In reply to V-Wing

I'll defend this to the bitter end. This is a stirring scene. I don't care if the end is a rehash of Empire Strikes Back. It is beautiful and a great lead-in to Episode III. The music is perfect. Just literally perfect. The Imperial March in the first part of the scene is one of the most powerful

Vwing, you have been my compatriot in battles to justify ROTJ. We have battled Civilian two on that point for days. I respect and appreciate that you see the genius in ROTJ. We think alike you and I.I.............................................................................
....................................................

until now.

Are you serious :yuck: ???????!!!! Beautiful???!!!!!You are seriously looking too much into a scene that George Lucas created just so he can wrap up the utter mess of ideas that is ATOC into something that he can at leat relate somewhat to the next movie. All the logic points you and I used to defend ROTJ don't apply to this. But I guess you have your reasons for liking it. We agree to disagree.

[Vwing]

Ugh, I have trouble agreeing to disagree on this one. All I can ask of you is for you to watch the scene again and view it by itself, not judging it based on your thoughts of the rest of the movie. The shots are beautiful. When the Star Destroyers of taking off, that is a magnificent sight, a grand sight, everything a Star Wars sight should be. The wedding at the end is also beautiful cinematography. The sun setting in the background, with the chief characters looking into it over the ocean. That's a beautiful shot right there. Again, for a moment, forget about lack of originality, forget about how you feel that it was only included to wrap up the mess of a movie it was. Just watch the scene for itself, it really is a great end scene. And again, the music just adds to it. I really do think that is perfect music, and, aside from the original Star Wars, is the best lead in to the end credits in the series.

Now I'll agree to disagree.

This post has been edited by Vwing: 28 March 2004 - 08:01 PM

[barend]

in reply to the first post...

what? there was something in TPM that wasn't the pod race? that's all I remember! in fact it should have been called Episode 1: the really long pod race.

otherwise, some great points there.

[Despondent]

I didn't notice the sunset at the wedding scene, just that awful golden hand of Anikan's. ugh. nice to see bionics improved so between this and TESB, but I'll be happy to see the Darth gloves. There's a reason the vader outfit is so intimidating.

[jxw]

what? there was something in TPM that wasn't the pod race? that's all I remember! in fact it should have been called Episode 1: the really long pod race.

Removing the pod race would have been a good start. Actually, removing all of Tatooine and all Gungan activity, as well as trimming the more pointless bits on Caruscant would leave you with the basis for a decent film. Lucas should be encouraged. When he changes the whole thing in a few years time because he discovers that "this is what we originally wanted to do, but we couldn't find a way of doing it", there will still be about 20 minutes of footage that he can reuse, and he won't have to reshoot all 2 hours.

Given his past record though, I think he'll just bin the 20 minutes of decent/not awful stuff....

otherwise, some great points there.

Cheers. I'm a bit disappointed that nobody has managed to come up with any others, although there was some good criticism of the seven scenes I did like from two whole films. That tells a sad story in itself.

This post has been edited by jxw: 29 March 2004 - 12:54 PM

[Private Zod]

AMong my many issues, is that they never established Anakin as a good person. There is not a soul who did not think Anakin was a whiny, somewhat creepy, brat in Ep2. Who gives a shit if he is ever redeemed b/c you never like him in the first place.

My brother is a talented writer, who after the first prequel, wrote a "what if" story on the web with a friend. Was really well received. Pretty much it was a Terminator kind of theme, where after "Empire Stikes Back" takes place, the Emperor sends Mara Jade back in time to right after the events of Ep3 to kill the pregnant Amidala. Separately Luke/Leia and Vader get wind of this and both on their own go back to prevent this. It is a very long story that was done unbelievably...If you guys want the link let me know and I'll get it for you.

I say this because my brother, with no training whatsoever, just a big fan, wrote a complex emotional involved story with many characters that was better than anything Lucas came up with going back to Empire STrikes Back. Pretty scary.

We pretty much have an idiot with his finger on the bomb.

[civilian_number_two]

Cheers. I'm a bit disappointed that nobody has managed to come up with any others, although there was some good criticism of the seven scenes I did like from two whole films. That tells a sad story in itself.

Guys,

You are all nuts. You are trying to look for the "good parts" of a truly horrible pair of movies. I was amused by Mac's comment about division in the anti-Civilian ranks, but that's the way of things, isn't it? I go away to work for a while, and you turn on one another!

(smile quietly)

For me there was, and I am being honest, not one single moment in TPM that was any good at all. I went in only a little trepidatious, and I squirmed and winced for the entire nine-hour run of it. The lightsaber duel eveyone loved was just some great music and a load of shitty crosscutting. I will never get that part of my life back, and frankly, I don't want it.

I imagine AOTC is far worse. I am amazed evey time I hear a new thing about it; this forum has been remarkale for eavesdropping tidbits of awful awful movie. I could never have imagined it. It's as thought Lucas watch MANOS : HANDS OF FATE and said "I can do better than that."

I disagree that Darth Maul could have been made a better character. I disagree that Darth Maul was a character at all. Chewbacca was a better character, and he did not have a single line. But along the way, we got some sense of character from him, even if it was simplistic "he good guy, he like good things." Darth Maul was a circus freak. Even Jason in the Friday 13 films made a more interesting villain.

I really disagree that there was any way to make Aniking work as a cute little kid. That was just stupid. Obi-Wan was supposed to meet him when he was already a great pilot. Couldn't we have had a kind of Han Solo Jedi?

I still say the prequels would have been better if theye were more like Samurai films and less like MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATRE.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

To jxw.

There are really IMO only three scenes i enjoyed in Episdoe II

1. The opening assasination attempt on Amidala using those creatures. The whole assasination attempt had a unique touch for a Star Wars film. It was done with a sort of cloak and dagger feel to it. The two Jedis watching and preventing the queen from an unknown assailant. It would have been better if they gave us some bedroom scenes of Amidala in a nightie. But i guess that is beyond Lucas scope.

2. The scene were Anakin is chasing the changeling through the streets of Corsucant. I liked the visuals and the tone. It had a fil-noir feel to it that was unique to star wars. In fact when i first saw this scene I thought that Episode II was kind of going to be a sort of Maltese Falconish type movie were the jedi knioghts try to unveil the mystery of Palpatine. Unfortunately the movie never went that direction and ultimately dissappointed me.

3. jango Fett vs. Obi-Wan on that waterworld planet [Hey Waterworld!! A freudian slip their } This was an amazing battles scene that was reminsicent of the OT fight scenes. it was exciting and it had a choreography to it's movements. It was set perfectly in the bluish torrential rain. You can detail every movement in that battle scene clearly. Watch that scene again and I am sure you will agree.

That's it. Every other scene was either, pointless, stupid,inane, or all three

[barend]

i hate the assasination attempt.
a bounty hunter hires, another bounty hunter, who sends a robot/probe, who sends in two carrion crawlers, who live in the house that jack built.

the robot that opened the 'window' could have just shot her in the face while she slept without annyone being able to dedect shit! more so the damn thing should have been programmed to explode once it's mission was complete, not support the wait of an adult (physicaly speaking) male, and return with questionable cargo to it's owner.

what a crappy droid...
BOUNTY HUNTER: *sitting on street corner*
"I hope that droid killed that bitch good and proper, 50 000 credits here we come I'm going to play black jack at the cloud city casino tonight!!!
...oh heres the droid now, oh you've brought the cops with you!"
ONE OF THE COPS HANGING OF THE DROID:
"this belong to you?"
BOUNTY HUNTER:
"er.. no, why was someone successfully assainated?"

[Jordan]

Civil and Mike Mac

You have not seen AOTC and are not going to see episode III?

Why not? How can you go through the rest of your life without experiencing the pain first hand?

I've actually grown very close to hating the new movies. I enjoy hating them, as much as I enjoyed loving the OT.

May I point out, that reading Chef's hate list will be HELLUVA lot more entertaining once you have watched the movie.


You will break down soon. I know you will watch them. Time will crack you.

[civilian_number_two]

I will disagree with you on the Anakin as a child point. You just don't like warm and fuzzy elements in your sci-fi, do you civilian. LOL.

I loved ENDER'S GAME and its first sequel, SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD. Great sci-fi, lots of fun, and damned warm and hella fuzzy. So no, it's not that.

I think Darth Vader was not a serious enough villain to warrant a childhood story. I get it: he likes the dark Jedi magic, he likes to kill his own men. There is a seduction scene in EMPIRE that can be reinterpreted as him reaching out to his son, but it's not deep. Then there's all that awful "I want to see you with my own eyes," wretched cloying bullshit in JEDI that made the average fan a little uncomfortable. To me it reeked to JEDI heaven.

Believe me Civilian, if Darth Maul were a better developed character, he would be have given DArth Vader a run as the premier villain of Star Wars.

I actually agree with this. I also think that if Natalie Portman had not been in TPM, then there would have been no Natalie Portman in TPM. But there's no point theorizing about what might have been. Lucas doesn't have the skills, and frnkly i think it would have taken an insane level of talent to write a prequel that followed the plotline Lucas wanted, and to make it any ggod. Sure, a better writer would have trimmed the pod race, maybe wiped Boss Nass's chin once or twice, and cut the odd "yippee!" Sure. But there's no making that story GOOD.

[Despondent]

Vader's breathing, closing credits TPM and that's about it.

Maybe TPM is a phonetic slap at the folks who make him so rich. Lucas doesn't want to write his promised, tardy term paper and has no ideas on what to do. he resents us, and says "they'll buy whatever shape of sh#t I deliver:" the fandom menace.

[Chefelf]

Vader's breathing, closing credits TPM and that's about it.

Did that really happen? How did I miss that?

That's pretty weak, just so you know. After 2+ hours of watching the chubby-cheeked Anakin bounce around yelling "YIPPEE!" you are then supposed to think of Darth Vader? Am I the only one who doesn't think Darth Vader is scary anymore after seeing him as a stupid kid and whiny teen?

It would be like if the German people had seen home movies of Hitler as a baby getting his butt wiped by his mommy. WWII would have been avoided and everyone would have had a great laugh at his expense to boot!

[Mike Mac from NYU]

To Elf.

"It would be like if the German people had seen home movies of Hitler as a baby getting his butt wiped by his mommy. WWII would have been avoided and everyone would have had a great laugh at his expense to boot"

But we have seen film of Adolph Hitler hugging children, and teaching his dog Blondi how to do tricks. Evil people are not born, they develop. Even Osama bin Ladin was a cute adorable baby at one point. I think what Lucas is trying to portray here is that evil develops and starts out somewhere. That there is the capacity to do great evil in all of us. That is why I liked the idea of showing Vader
as I child. my problem is that Lucas screwed it up with his inane writing and directing.