[Cyzyk]

For some reason, the Germans commiting genocide and the rest of Europe letting them do it has become a sin for the Arabs to atone. Why was Isreal created? Holocaust guilt. Who's fault was the Holocaust? Syria or Lebanon? No, it was Europe. But for some reason, the "recompense" the Europeans offered the Jews for slaughtering cost the Europeans nothing and the Arabs a great deal.

First they gave the Jews Isreal, then they gave them an army to defend it with. Then the Jews who had been treated relatively well by the Arabs until then betrayed the Arabs to help Isreal.

Think like an Arab for a minute. Imagine if the US and China went to war, then in the aftermath as reparations for the Chinese being mean to some random Chinese tribe, the US and China agreed to give them South Wales. How do you think the British would react? But wait, the US and China also give them cutting edge military technology, including long-range missiles and nukes to defend themselves. Then some random half-Chinese guy in RAF command leaks the location of all Britain's airbases so they get sneak attacked on the first day of the inevitable war (with missiles and planes from China and the US), leaving Britain without an air force to defend themselves from the new People's Republic of South Wales (or anybody else, for that matter.)

Want to estimate how long it will take for the British to be happy-happy with the new PRSW? Take a look at the Middle East for your answer. Religion isn't everything if you look at it from this perspective.

Islam wouldn't be half so threatening if the Arabs weren't forced to be paranoid. I've been the "random" person they search on national flights my last 5 out of 6 times. I wonder if it's a coincidence that I'm also partially Syrian?

[Jordan]

Nobody is blaming Muslims for the holocaust.

DUDE, look around the world. Cheychina, Serbia, North Africa, Middle East all have serious problems with Islamic militants. They aren't freedom fighting, they are trying to take over control and spread their relgion by means of killing.

If you're trying to figure out whose in the wrong just look outside of Israel and see all the shit these Moslem groups are stirring in other countries. You'll see that enough people have interpreted this holy peaceful book in such a manner that allows them to kill for allah. It's not just a middle eastern problem, it's all over the place in the East. It's not a small minority, it's a large portion. If it was a minority group then it wouldn't have lasted this long and wouldn't have spread so far across the globe.

[J m HofMarN]

Cheychina

In Chechnya Russia invaded a sovereign nation and killed a lot of people and propped up a puppet government. And might I point out that in the past when Muslims resisted Russian invasion it was supported with millions of dollars of money and training, not derided as terrorism. This point is moot.

Serbia

Ummm Jordan... Jordan this is logic calling. PLEASE try to know what you're talking about occasionally. How does Slobodan Milosevic (white Christian) comitting genocide AGAINST Muslims pertain in any way shape or form to the war on terror or your argument that Muslims are violent animals?

North Africa

Yes, yes North Africa is indeed a region polulated by Muslims. You get a pat on the head. I imagine you were refering to Somalia or perhaps Egypt, which are considered more aligned with East Africa. Egypt is a dictatorship and Muslims are fighting to do something about that. To blame Islam for people wanting to overthrow Mubarak would be like blaming Hindhuism for people wanting to overthrow the British Raj. In Somalia you have a point. Muslim militants are fighting the government, but that is because Somalia is a largely Muslim nation. By that logic Jews are violent because most of the crime in predominantly Jewish areas is committed by Jews.

Middle East

Yes, Muslims do indeed live in the middle east as well, lets see what you're on about:

Jordan: Very little support or presence of Muslim militants
Lebanon: Muslim militants exist due to Israeli invasion
Palestine: Same.
Saudi Arabia: Militancy exists because the government is a repressive autocracy.
Iraq: No militant presence existed in government controlled areas before the US invasion.
Iran: The only militant presence in Iran is a US funded group.
Afghanistan: The US funded the taliban and helped them gain control of the country, and are now fighting said militants
Syria: Gives refuge to freedom fighters from Palestine and Lebanon but little actual home grown militancy exists
Pakistan: Ruled by a military dictator who militants seek to overthrow.

Do you see a pattern here Jordan? Muslims don't just wake up and decide to be militant. When there is a foreign invasion or interference (US, Israel, USSR) They take up guns like anyone else would, and when their government becomes too oppressive they do the same. Shit, if Bush started shutting down newspapers and declaring martial law I wouldnt need to read the Quran to realize that I needed to go buy a gun. This is human nature, it's not a religious thing.

Also, you forgot to mention China, which has increasingly tried to paint it's battle against Muslim freedom fighters as part of the war on terror, but has failed even to deceive such dullards as George Bush.

If you're trying to figure out whose in the wrong just look outside of Israel and see all the shit these Moslem groups are stirring in other countries.

You're going to judge who's wrong by who has comitted the most violence? That sounds fine to me. Add up all the people killed in terrorist bombings or shootings ever and then compare that number with the hundreds of thousands killed by the US and Israel in their crusca... I mean war on terror. Unless you add a fuckton of zeroes it's going to tell you that the imperialist forces are FAR more violent than the Islamofascists, Radical jihadis, wahhabisists, salafists, islamic militants, militant jihadists, elmofascists, or whatever silly term Bush has come up with to pretend that this war is against ten beardy people hiding in a cave and not against anyone unfortunate enough to have the wrong skin color.

I mean, honestly. World war 2 didn't take this long to destroy Naziism and we're to believe that it requires five years to kill a few people hiding in caves? And we've detained more people than Al Qaida's chain of command ever contained. We have six hundred at Guantanamo being, as is admitted in military documents, psychologically tortured, beaten and systematicly humiliated in ways only fit for the people who came up with this evil -- the US government and Pentagon officials. But the realistic estimates of Al Qaida's core command, IE: the ones that would know anything worth knowing, is only in the very low hundreds.

The US government urges an unending campaign of violence, torture, rape and terror against Muslims, and people like you have the balls to call the victims the bad guys. Look at America's track record. Once communism was defeated war was supposed to end, we were supposed to have peace, that was the deal. The evil commies were the preeminent threat to the entire world. Now after hardly any time we have a new foe that is completely undefined, can never be defeated, and requires even more slavish obedience and faith in our leaders to stop.

The US thrives on a culture of war, on having some enemy to compare our massive military cock against and scare our children into behaving with. This war is bullshit, this war will never end as long as murderous filth like Bush pollute our country, and this war is completely useless. I once again hope that everyone involved in forcing this war on America, everyone involved in authorizing interrogations at Guantanamo and Abu Graib, will hang until dead one day soon.

[Otal Nimrodi]

In Chechnya Russia invaded a sovereign nation and killed a lot of people and propped up a puppet government. And might I point out that in the past when Muslims resisted Russian invasion it was supported with millions of dollars of money and training, not derided as terrorism. This point is moot.
Ummm Jordan... Jordan this is logic calling. PLEASE try to know what you're talking about occasionally. How does Slobodan Milosevic (white Christian) comitting genocide AGAINST Muslims pertain in any way shape or form to the war on terror or your argument that Muslims are violent animals?
Yes, yes North Africa is indeed a region polulated by Muslims. You get a pat on the head. I imagine you were refering to Somalia or perhaps Egypt, which are considered more aligned with East Africa. Egypt is a dictatorship and Muslims are fighting to do something about that. To blame Islam for people wanting to overthrow Mubarak would be like blaming Hindhuism for people wanting to overthrow the British Raj. In Somalia you have a point. Muslim militants are fighting the government, but that is because Somalia is a largely Muslim nation. By that logic Jews are violent because most of the crime in predominantly Jewish areas is committed by Jews.
Yes, Muslims do indeed live in the middle east as well, lets see what you're on about:

Jordan: Very little support or presence of Muslim militants
Lebanon: Muslim militants exist due to Israeli invasion
Palestine: Same.
Saudi Arabia: Militancy exists because the government is a repressive autocracy.
Iraq: No militant presence existed in government controlled areas before the US invasion.
Iran: The only militant presence in Iran is a US funded group.
Afghanistan: The US funded the taliban and helped them gain control of the country, and are now fighting said militants
Syria: Gives refuge to freedom fighters from Palestine and Lebanon but little actual home grown militancy exists
Pakistan: Ruled by a military dictator who militants seek to overthrow.

Do you see a pattern here Jordan? Muslims don't just wake up and decide to be militant. When there is a foreign invasion or interference (US, Israel, USSR) They take up guns like anyone else would, and when their government becomes too oppressive they do the same. Shit, if Bush started shutting down newspapers and declaring martial law I wouldnt need to read the Quran to realize that I needed to go buy a gun. This is human nature, it's not a religious thing.

Also, you forgot to mention China, which has increasingly tried to paint it's battle against Muslim freedom fighters as part of the war on terror, but has failed even to deceive such dullards as George Bush.
You're going to judge who's wrong by who has comitted the most violence? That sounds fine to me. Add up all the people killed in terrorist bombings or shootings ever and then compare that number with the hundreds of thousands killed by the US and Israel in their crusca... I mean war on terror. Unless you add a fuckton of zeroes it's going to tell you that the imperialist forces are FAR more violent than the Islamofascists, Radical jihadis, wahhabisists, salafists, islamic militants, militant jihadists, elmofascists, or whatever silly term Bush has come up with to pretend that this war is against ten beardy people hiding in a cave and not against anyone unfortunate enough to have the wrong skin color.

I mean, honestly. World war 2 didn't take this long to destroy Naziism and we're to believe that it requires five years to kill a few people hiding in caves? And we've detained more people than Al Qaida's chain of command ever contained. We have six hundred at Guantanamo being, as is admitted in military documents, psychologically tortured, beaten and systematicly humiliated in ways only fit for the people who came up with this evil -- the US government and Pentagon officials. But the realistic estimates of Al Qaida's core command, IE: the ones that would know anything worth knowing, is only in the very low hundreds.

The US government urges an unending campaign of violence, torture, rape and terror against Muslims, and people like you have the balls to call the victims the bad guys. Look at America's track record. Once communism was defeated war was supposed to end, we were supposed to have peace, that was the deal. The evil commies were the preeminent threat to the entire world. Now after hardly any time we have a new foe that is completely undefined, can never be defeated, and requires even more slavish obedience and faith in our leaders to stop.

The US thrives on a culture of war, on having some enemy to compare our massive military cock against and scare our children into behaving with. This war is bullshit, this war will never end as long as murderous filth like Bush pollute our country, and this war is completely useless. I once again hope that everyone involved in forcing this war on America, everyone involved in authorizing interrogations at Guantanamo and Abu Graib, will hang until dead one day soon.

Now I'm confused... Which Jordan are we talking about? I kind of need to know to respond.

[J m HofMarN]

Except for in the list of Middle East countries I'm addressing Jordan the person.

[barend]

i was wondering how long it would take for that to come up...

[J m HofMarN]

I blame Muslims for trying to sew confusion in the hearts of easily confused Americans... Though a massive American bombing campaign mistakenly mounted against Jordan might do wonders to enlighten his attitude about the war.

[Jordan]

I think you made some good points.

[J m HofMarN]

Thanks Jordan

[Otal Nimrodi]

Except for in the list of Middle East countries I'm addressing Jordan the person.

Gotcha.

I hate to say this, but Jordan has a point. Whether you mean to come across this way or not, this is how it sounds to us: You are excusing one group from killing civilians just because they happily admit they are killing innocent people. Like that makes it okay. Like proudly admitting to the murder makes it much more acceptable, maybe even good.

I'm not accusing you of actually meaning this, but you sound like you are just using the tragedy of the death of innocents for your cause, and you don't actually care - because from your perspective, it's okay for Israeli civilians to die. You hate Israel and the US, and that's clear - they can do no right, and their enemies can do no wrong. So it kind of makes me, maybe I'm alone, but it makes me not really want to take your posts seriously.

No offense meant. I promise.

I was going to say something like that earlier. It's true JM. You look all over for ways to justify atrocities on one side and jump on ways to accuse the other.

[J m HofMarN]

Condemning both sides in an effort to seem like a good guy means that all you're doing is allowing the war to continue. You can't just shake your fist at two warring groups and tell them to behave, you have to figure out which one is right and support them as much as you can, as I've tried to do by spreading the word, writing essays in favor of, and offering to work for the Palestinian cause.

I do wish there were other ways for the Palestinians to defeat Israel, but as an oppressed people they have every right to do anything they can to gain their freedom. No one is down on Moses or God for sending the ten plagues on Egypt, are they?

[Slade]

You can still acknowledge that there are problems on both sides of the issue without calling for death of everyone opposed to your train of thought.

Jordan: You can't look around Israel and see Muslims because there's a wall in the way.

[barend]

americans (army) kill civilians for the same reason they kill fellow troops. poor intelligence, bad aim due to the compulsive enlistement of inbred cross eyed nearsighted hillbilles, and general lack of organsation or clearly defined mission objectives.

muslims (terrorists/fighting forces) kill civilians because they don't like them.

i think that's the fundamental difference.
both are bad bad, but one's just mean.

[J m HofMarN]

without calling for death of everyone opposed to your train of thought.

I don't want every Israeli dead, just enough that they realize they need to end the war and give in to some of the Palestinian's demands. That's the point of a war, to kill enough of the opposing side that they decide maybe you should get what you want.

Alrighty then, I will make a statement to all freedom fighters in the area:

Attention brothers and sisters, heroes of the struggle for liberation: Everyone seems to believe that the way you're waging your desperate battle to preserve your national dignity, indeed the very existence of your nation, is being foguth in a way that is "just mean" Therefore I encourage you to buy several B2 stratofortresses and, rather than using suicide bombings or rocket attacks to kill three or four Israelis tops, you should start dropping 1 ton bombs on Israeli housing complexes and streets and killing ten or twenty people at a go, and start blowing up Israel's utilities and hospitals and government offices. This way people will think that you are more humanitarian, for this is how civilized war is fought.

PS, Send them a Katyusha for me!

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 07 September 2006 - 12:59 PM

[Desmo Easy]

In Chechnya Russia invaded a sovereign nation and killed a lot of people and propped up a puppet government. And might I point out that in the past when Muslims resisted Russian invasion it was supported with millions of dollars of money and training, not derided as terrorism. This point is moot.

Between 1991 and 1994 300,000 Russian civilians were ethnically cleansed from Chechnya. 30,000 Russian citizens were murdered and over 5,000 were taken as slaves for these so called “freedom fighters”. Then the war started 1995.

Ummm Jordan... Jordan this is logic calling. PLEASE try to know what you're talking about occasionally. How does Slobodan Milosevic (white Christian) comitting genocide AGAINST Muslims pertain in any way shape or form to the war on terror or your argument that Muslims are violent animals?

In 1998 the Kosovo Liberation Army made it clear that once they took control of Kosovo they would kill any and all Serbs in Kosovo. After the so called “Operation Horseshoe” in which the Yugoslav forces apparently killed over 100,000 Kosovo Albanians (no mass graves were found) and the Yugoslav forces left, the KLA started massacring Serbs left and right, pillaging Orthodox Churches and raping nuns while at the same time abusing their own people for money by prostitution and drug trade. In total around 3,500 Serbs were murdered and over 100,000 left. The UN estimates over 40,000 women and girls are being used as prostitutes by the KLA and most of these girls are in fact Albanian.

Milosevic was not a Christian, he was an Atheist, he spent all his life before the war supporting the Yugoslav Communist Party and that’s one of the reasons why he got in power in 1989.

If ofcourse you are talking about the Bosnian war then do not forget that the first victims of the war were people attending a Serbian Wedding. Not to mention that more Serbian children died during the Bosnian war then the total of Muslims and Croats combined.

Iraq: No militant presence existed in government controlled areas before the US invasion.

I wonder why that is? Oh yeah, because a sadistic leader known as Saddam Hussein massacred anyone that opposed him and their families.

Pakistan: Ruled by a military dictator who militants seek to overthrow.

And put in their own dictator, that system always seems to work, especially in Africa.

Do you see a pattern here Jordan? Muslims don't just wake up and decide to be militant. When there is a foreign invasion or interference (US, Israel, USSR) They take up guns like anyone else would, and when their government becomes too oppressive they do the same.

Muslims just like everyone else tend to oppress people, you forgot to mention that.

against Muslim freedom fighters

You picked the wrong side to support. What people don’t understand is there is no such thing as a freedom fighter, only people with guns who want power and think they can get it through a barrel of a gun. But then again there could be but chances are they do not follow Islamic ideals.

The world is not as black and white as you make it seem Mr Hofmarn.