[looktothesky]

Pro-choice, 100%.

[Sailor Abbey]

I think abortion has less to do with somebody being able to choose what to do with their body and more to do with whether or not a fetus is a person. Personally I don’t understand how anybody can say a fetus isn’t a human. Even after just a few weeks it has a little brain, a spinal cord, fingers toes, eyes ect ect ect.

And if your going to make it ok to kill a human - then your making it ok to kill a human. Scott Peterson gets charged for double homicide cause he killed his wifes unborn baby, but if she were to kill it, its not a crime? Come on. How much sense does that make. Wanting a child doesn’t make the one in your belly any less human. Its only separated by a few layers of skin and some fluid for christssake.

I don’t know. I just really don’t get it. Killing a person is killing a person. But that being said, I believe that sometimes killing a person is necessary. If the woman has medical problems or the baby has lots of arms or something like that… theres a number of reasons why having an abortion might seem like the better option. But I don’t think we should sit around making up excuses for why a human fetus is not a living being. Just say it like it is. Your killing a person cause that’s what has to be done.

[barend]

yeah... i believe in choice but let's not beat around the bush.

feeding a kid through a blender-hose, chopping it up with a long kife, poisoning it, whatetever is not something you cant paint flowers on. people do deserve the choice but it's not one that should be treated lightly.

while we have the morning after pill, abortions should far less frequent. because even if it is 'only about your body' the 'proceedure' still does damage to that body and can fuck up your abilty to later have a kid should you want one. so its nothing to flip a coin over.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

But I don’t think we should sit around making up excuses for why a human fetus is not a living being. Just say it like it is. Your killing a person cause that’s what has to be done.

That's a totally subjective opinion on your part and has no concrete basis in the definitive terms you're trying to declare about it. Nobody is saying it's not alive...the ongoing question that NOBODY has a definite answer to is when a fetus becomes what we know as a "human" life. The issue isn't whether or not it's alive. We each kill countless living things every day. Life itself isn't the question...it's the issue of when we're dealing with "human life," since that is what our laws are supposed to be applying to here. And nobody knows that answer for sure...and if they say they do, they're lying to themselves and you.

[barend]

murder or not murder aside...

seeing as we have adoption, abortion is pretty much just for girls who want to keep their figure.

[Spoon Poetic]

Does anyone else get the feeling that this "natalie" person only joined the forums to plug that reality tv show?

Sorry, random; I was just noticing that she created this thread, and just plugged that show, and we never heard from her again.

Anyway, I kind of agree with Barend, because I think abortion is pretty selfish whether you think the foetus is a human being or not, but at the same time, it's not just wanting to keep your figure that makes girls want to abort - I've heard giving birth, painwise, at its least painful, compared to pushing a watermelon out through your urethra, guys. As well as all the hormonal changes and excreting milk and the time and money it consumes just to be pregnant, even without the possibility of complications arising in the pregnancy. And some people will argue that adoption is a b ad route because a lot of kids don't get adopted, and they just grow up in the adoption centers which for some reason or another is bad, but I don't know enough about that particular aspect of things to argue for or against it.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 23 October 2006 - 09:54 PM

[barend]

adopted parents are the best. you can never really trust that your parents really wanted to have you. but an adopted parent is a guarentee.

one of my best friends is adopted and his mom rocks, she's always making cookies and keeps the house full of a rainbow of softdrinks, cereals and goodies. and she makes one kick ass spanish omlet.

giving birth may be painful, but being conceived and then not having a go at this thing we call life, is just mean. is it human, or isn't it? well in a few months it definatley would have been so that whole argument is a waste of everyone's time.

so kill your damn baby, drive home in your fosil fueled car that's fucking the envornment and choking everyone to death, wearing your nike shoes made by some vietnamese kid whos weakly wage is not being shot in the face, and yapping on your cell phone thats bombarding everyone with radiation and not paying attention to the road driving along in your APC...

seriously i don't care.

but i'm so sick of people trying to justify themsleves. does it make people feel better about irrisponsibilty? rape only accounts for so many pregnancies, and the pill fails quite statistically rarely.

so shred your baby, tell the protesters to fuck off, and lets leave it at that.

i'm killing my baby but is not human yet, i drive a tank because it keeps my kids safe, NO NO NO NO NO!

it's all irrisponsible decadence...

eat another big mac and shut up already. ..

then there's the people who blow up abortion doctors... "abortion is murder" but killing adults with families is okay. nice.

[civilian_number_two]

That's a totally subjective opinion on your part and has no concrete basis in the definitive terms you're trying to declare about it. Nobody is saying it's not alive...the ongoing question that NOBODY has a definite answer to is when a fetus becomes what we know as a "human" life. The issue isn't whether or not it's alive. We each kill countless living things every day. Life itself isn't the question...it's the issue of when we're dealing with "human life," since that is what our laws are supposed to be applying to here. And nobody knows that answer for sure...and if they say they do, they're lying to themselves and you.

You're reacting to a line out of context. Maybe you didn't notice this, in the very same post:

And if your going to make it ok to kill a human - then your making it ok to kill a human. Scott Peterson gets charged for double homicide cause he killed his wifes unborn baby, but if she were to kill it, its not a crime? Come on.

So I dare say she was trying to address the legal question in the very way you suggest.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

I disagree that we're talking about the same perspective on that issue, hence my response.

The Peterson case is one I find troubling in terms of the legislation it created. On one hand, I personally think that abortions after approximately the 3rd month of a pregnancy shouldn't be allowed except in the case of criminal or health issues. But that's me...with Peterson, I believe his child was late-term when he killed his wife, so I suppose it could be argued that he was "essentially" killing a baby, but it still seems uncomfortably arbitrary. It's a difficult issue, and laws like those passed in the wake of the Peterson case simply serve to make it more complicated.

[Slade]

Barend: You're as bad as JM orLecter, except instead of BLARGH ISRAEL or BLARGH CHRISTIANITY you're BLARGH PEPSI-NIKE. How about we keep our issues separate, ok? I agree that adoption is the best option for an unwanted child, by far, but you don't need to go bitching about all of the other things you don't like and try to link it when it's irrelevant.

A mom keeping her pantry stocked with junk food doesn't make her kickass. At the least, it means nothing, and at the most, she's instilling spectacularly poor nutritional values on her children by letting them suck down high fructose corn syrup all day. I have personally met children who couldn't bare to even drink water, let alone something like milk; they only drank soda and kool-aid.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

The whole generic "I HATE EVERYTHING/EVERYONE, WHO CARES" sentiment one finds all over the internet is pretty tiresome at this point. Very rarely does it not feel disingenuous and lazy.

Let me put it this way...if that's how you feel, great. Go with that. But it really loses its impact when nearly every serious discussion or debate is constantly interrupted by someone dying to tell the world how sick they are of everything and everyone else. How is that any different than just randomly stopping everything dead to post "I LIKE CHEESE?" What does it have to do with anything except drawing attention to yourself?

If people want to take this personally, well, please don't. It's not directed at anyone specific here...it's just something somewhat annoying I've noticed at a lot of message boards.

Oh, and by the way...

I FUCKING LOVE ME THE FUCK OUT OF SOME FUCKING CHEESE, MOTHERFUCKERS. CHEESE 4 LIFE. I AM PRO-CHEESE.

[barend]

i wasn't being lazy or generic... i was saying that, like most other issues, abortion is yet another bulllshit excuse for people to hate each other, while no one ever adresses the real issue.

i "dragged" everything else in because i was making a point ABOUT the issue.

that, to put it in simple terms, people want to do something rather uncuddley but don't want people to judge them so rather than saying, "fuck you, this is what i'm doing, get out of my face" they spend hours wasting our time with weakly justifying it...

you are ending a life. we're mostly all good with that, the only people who care are murders too. but don't give me any of this 'it's not a life' crap, because i've watched an abortion through ultrasound and i can tell you right now that junior tends to show a little bit of discomfort* with the situation.

*discomfort = the same that a man being eaten alive by a lion might experience. but perhaps without the tradgedy of knowing he'll miss this weeks OC.

sorry if i mentioned other things in illustrating my point, but quite frankly i find most of the world's problems revolve around the fact that a majority of people seem to not give a flying fuck about anyone else yet seem so concearned about what other people think of them.

the sooner we adress that rusty old can of foul smelling crud encrusted crap the fewer problems we'll suddenly have for better or worse.

there's no room for personal growth if people refuse to acknowledge the many ugly realities of what their day contains and what impact it has on others.

so sorry, but i stand by every word i said before and refute the implication that it was apathy spawned laziness when it was in fact it was actually social attitude and grand scale self delusion driven anti consumerist antipathy.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Those are some pretty massive generalizations about a lot of people.

[Sailor Abbey]

That's a totally subjective opinion on your part and has no concrete basis in the definitive terms you're trying to declare about it. Nobody is saying it's not alive...the ongoing question that NOBODY has a definite answer to is when a fetus becomes what we know as a "human" life. The issue isn't whether or not it's alive. We each kill countless living things every day. Life itself isn't the question...it's the issue of when we're dealing with "human life," since that is what our laws are supposed to be applying to here. And nobody knows that answer for sure...and if they say they do, they're lying to themselves and you.

Dude! Seriously. How is it not human? It has human DNA. It has human EVERYTHING. Its not a cat, its not a ferret, its not a Volkswagon. What the hell else is it? If its got human DNA and its ALIVE, then its human life. What about it makes it 'not human life?' I really don’t understand, please educate me. I'm not being sarcastic, I really don’t get it. In my third month I could feel that little thing in my belly swimming around and could feel its heart beating under my palm. That’s pretty fucking alive if you ask me. And I know its now a tree growing in there, so I don’t get how its not human life.

Telling yourself its just a piece of tissue is a copout. People need to take responsibility for their actions and quit making excuses based on nomenclature.

And as far as the law goes, you can not say killing an unborn child isn’t killing a human being and then convict somebody of murder for doing the same. If Scott Peterson committed a crime, then so has everybody else who participates in an abortion and they should be held accountable.

[Spoon Poetic]

I've never understood the whole "it's not a human life yet" argument, either. Some people argue against those that claim abortion is sending the babies' souls to hell (as they never had the chance to accept Christ because you killed them first, blah blah), that we don't know when that life actually has a "soul" or whatever, and I can see where there are some blurred lines there - but like you said, Abbey, it's alive, and it's human... A human life. Human plus human does not equal elephant, it equals human; and that little ball of cells is a little ball of human cells. A live one.

(((How is the baby coming along, Abbey?? Boy or girl, due date? )))