[MyPantsAreOnFire]

I think we've discussed Luke's piloting abilities enough for now.

One scene that has annoyed me recently occurs in ROTJ. After Lando barely escapes getting consumed by the explosion from the Death Star, you see the Falcon fly towards the Rebel Fleet. This leads me to two questions:

1. Why does there appear to be more large ships than they started with? Didn't a large part of the Rebel Fleet get destroyed?

2. What happened to the other 50 some Star Destroyers? There's NO WAY all of them got destroyed. Even WITHOUT the Death Star, that fleet of Star Destroyers should have been capable of taking the Rebels out.

Great points. In all the other shots we see of the Rebel fleet in ROTJ, there looks to be about 15-20 "big" ships, tops. When the Falcon is blasting towards Endor, the fleet has suddenly at least doubled in size, despite having lost probably at least half a dozen ships to the Death Star.

And those Imperials punked out. I've heard people theorize that the Empire was really driven by the Emperor's will, and when he died, they pussed out. Well, let me just say that that is the biggest load of steaming horseshit possible. Of course, look what happened to the "entire legion of the Emperor's finest troops" down on the planet...these guys suck at life. All in all, Lucas really didn't make the Empire that threatening unless it was Vader or a big planet-shattering laser.

[Despondent]

Ok, you're right about the Star Destroyer wtf moment. But maybe they were all controlled by the big Superstar Destroyer. Which, after ID4 and SW: Ep1 would make perfect sense.

Or, maybe Palpatine had all of the troops ordered to go Order 86 on themselves upon his death.

No, I don't think it was one of the worst moments. It was a let's look the other way kind of goal. But I was never a JEDI groupie. I mean, I'd bicycle across town to see it One more time while it was still in the theaters in August '83; but I was never really sold on it after the teddy bears.

Or before. That logjam conversation smacks of the "insert commercial break here" pacing evident when skipping through the ads on a recorded program. Alright everyone. Collective breath. The man I knew... music up, fade to black; cut to commercial.

But it was a STAR WARS movie. With MODELS and Cool space scenes we'd (kind of) never seen before. And it had those red guards in it. And three years was a long time back then.

[miladyblue]

And three years was a long time back then.

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie there, Despondent! Especially given the cliffhanger we were left with at the end of ESB.

[Helena]

And those Imperials punked out. I've heard people theorize that the Empire was really driven by the Emperor's will, and when he died, they pussed out. Well, let me just say that that is the biggest load of steaming horseshit possible. Of course, look what happened to the "entire legion of the Emperor's finest troops" down on the planet...these guys suck at life. All in all, Lucas really didn't make the Empire that threatening unless it was Vader or a big planet-shattering laser.

Word. The Emperor dies and the entire Empire just collapses within half an hour or so? Do they have a hive mind or something? There had to be millions of Imperial troops left in other parts of the galaxy, not to mention plenty of officers who could take over from the Emperor, and they had to have made some contingency plans for the event of his death.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Word. The Emperor dies and the entire Empire just collapses within half an hour or so? Do they have a hive mind or something? There had to be millions of Imperial troops left in other parts of the galaxy, not to mention plenty of officers who could take over from the Emperor, and they had to have made some contingency plans for the event of his death.

Yes, I think we can all agree that ROTJ had the most weaknesses out of any of the movies, as far as political realism goes.

[diligent_d]

The novels (yeah, yeah - EU, I know) had the Empire descending into civil war on on a bunch of different worlds, after Palpatine bit the dust.

[barend]

there's nothing at the end of ROTJ to say the empire disappeared, just that their effective leadership was anhilated.

the emporer, darth vader, admiral what's his face, the death star, the major star destroyers, etc.

there wa snothing to suggest the fight against the empire was over, just that the major battle to overthrow the heart of the empire had been won. as a kid it seemed clear to me that the fighting wasn't over, but that the little party on endor was justified as the rebellion was now the winning side, and the war from this point would be a matter of clearing up the remenants.

the little party on coursecaunt and around the galaxy, in the SEs however made me sick to my stomach as they made no sense at all.
WTF were they celebrating? imperial forces would have been around all those other planets. it's not like they actually sent the entire empire to endor... there's no way what we saw hovering over that moon was the entirety of the galactic governing force.

so in many ways, the ad on celebrations of ROTJ are the worst moment ever...

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

the emporer, darth vader, admiral what's his face, the death star, the major star destroyers, etc.

So not even one captain could have picked up the radio and said, "hey, dipshits...we still outnumber them by an assload of ships. Turn around."?

[miladyblue]

"hey, dipshits...we still outnumber them by an assload of ships. Turn around."?

Good one, MyPantsAreOnFire!!

Maybe if GL had gone through with his plans for movies 7, 8, 9?

Because beating the leadership of a powerful enemy is only the FIRST step. There is also the matter of making peace with any potential pretenders to said enemy's power - i.e. any ambitious family member(s), Regional Governor, or high ranking military officers. These types usually have the numbers of troops and equipment necessary to cause a lot of problems for the victors. One of GL's own inspirations, the Roman Empire was rife with these kinds of problems. A general would name himself Caesar, and any rival could cause him no end of grief.

There would have been a number of ways to deal with any potential rivals of the vanquished core - either through peaceful negotiations, (it has happened, only infrequently) or fighting on, and beating the rivals, too.

Then, of course, there is the matter of forming a new government, and attending to the immediate problems of security, supplies (food, water, energy), making sure the infrastructure is repaired if damaged, and upgraded, etc.

Unlike Helena, I have only taken a few poli sci courses, but this is kind of the basics.

[Helena]

The novels (yeah, yeah - EU, I know) had the Empire descending into civil war on on a bunch of different worlds, after Palpatine bit the dust.

Yes; Lucas's 'PARTY PARTY PARTY!' scenes not only made no sense, but they invalidated half his own EU as well. And all because he had to find some way to shoehorn his favourite Prequel elements (Coruscant, Naboo, the Gungans) into the OT...

This post has been edited by Helena: 11 August 2006 - 06:58 AM

[StarWarsIsUs]

Maybe if GL had gone through with his plans for movies 7, 8, 9?

George Lucas: Filming for episode 7 will begin around October 2012.

Yes; Lucas's 'PARTY PARTY PARTY!' scenes not only made no sense, but they invalidated half his own EU as well. And all because he had to find some way to shoehorn his favourite Prequel elements (Coruscant, Naboo, the Gungans) into the OT...

George Lucas: Star Wars is how I say it will be. The Expanded Universe isn't canon in any way. It's not like I sit down and write the books. I just have to veto them if they are too stupid. Do they have any basis in the movies? No.

[barend]

So not even one captain could have picked up the radio and said, "hey, dipshits...we still outnumber them by an assload of ships. Turn around."?

given the emporer's ability to completely change peoples moral compas with minimal effort and his taste in buffoons for henchmen, i dare say his death made the entire fleet say; "hey, wait, what? what are we doing out here?"

not to justify or anything...
but star destroyers (super, regular, and unleaded) are pretty usless without assault ships to protect them, and assault ships (tie series and the like) are pretty usless without some place to resupply their oxygen. without the boom ball (death star), their 'protect the death star' mission was no longer relevant. the empoer, Darth, and the dude who rose from ensign to admiral in ESB were dead, and the only other officers with anyexperience had all been force choked to death during ESB.

no wonder they bloody fled.

[Storm]

Okay, I stuck in my ROTJ DVD and paused on the part where Ackbar says "It's a trap!", the fleet, turns around, and you see all the Star Destroyers. I clearly counted 18 Star Destroyers, and there were about another 18 where I couldn't tell if they were Star Destroyers or just stars (I'll assume they are stars). All we see is one Star Destroyer blow up and the Super Star Destroyer, as where two of the Rebels biggest ships are destroyed. 17 Star Destroyers fighting the remainder of the Rebel fleet is a HUGE advantage.

I understand their primary mission was to protect the Death Star, but you have to assume that the Empire had some kind of back up plan in the event he gets killed. I agree, all it would take is the captain of Star Destroyer #12 to step up and say "hey, dipshits...we still outnumber them by an assload of ships. Turn around." The Star Destroyers could make quick work of the Rebel's bigger ships.

Just another thought....

After the shield generator is destroyed on Endor, why doesn't the Death Star destroy Endor? Having the shield generator destroyed would be a clear indication that the troops on the surface failed, thus there is no practical use in keeping the planet around.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Good point. But then we have to look back at the original Star Wars. Why didn't they just destroy Yavin? It would have destroyed the 'moon with the rebel base' in a heart-beat. But no, they had to orbit all the way AROUND the planet for some unexplained reason.

[miladyblue]

The scenes with the Wookiees from RotS - the whole buildup to Chewbacca being in the movie, along with his buddies, and we see a pointless battle.

I mean, come on! This is CHEWIE, one of the most popular characters in the OT, and that is the best GL can do?