[jariten]

p.s (too late to edit the last post)

I decided a few minutes ago that i'm never getting into one of these back and forths cut and paste quoting marathons again, or at least not for a while. Let's all just meet in the ESB forum and talk about how great that film is and how they'll never be another like it or something instead.

That said, i'm off to listen to the first Devo album.

[Helena]

Until he's old enough to do what? Train himself? He wasn't going to become a powerful anything that way, Chosen One or not. The Jedi already said that he couldnt have a master, so what good would sitting around on Courascant, or going back to Tatooine do? The only way forward was for Qui Gon to keep him at his side and "train" him regardless. There was no one else around to do what Qui felt needed to be done. Even Obi Wan wasn't interested and thought he was making a mistake.

Sending him back to Tatooine would have meant the end of the Chosen One and (in Quis eyes) the end of the Jedi, so scratch that.

OK, before anything else, may I point out the simple fact that Qui-Gon's instincts are shown to be entirely wrong on various occasions? He was wrong about the Neimoidians right at the beginning of the movie, and he was wrong about Anakin - he did not destroy the Sith, he actually became a Sith himself. Sure, he killed the Emperor in the end, but only after he'd brought down the Republic and destroyed pretty much the entire Jedi Order. The fact that Qui-Gon thought he was the Chosen One is neither here nor there; even at the time it was clear that he could easily be wrong, and both he and the Council should have taken account of that.

Regardless, even if he believed Anakin really, really had to be trained, that was no reason whatsoever to take him along to Naboo. He could have left him at the Temple - they must have childcare facilities of some kind, given that they train the children there - or with someone he trusted, until the mission was over and he could come back to collect him. You're trying to make out that it's a binary choice between taking him to Naboo or sending him back into Miserable Drudgery, which patently is not the case. Even if Qui-Gon was stupid enough to think taking a nine-year-old to a war zone was a good idea, the Council should have known better.

Sending him back to Tatooine would have meant the end of the Chosen One and (in Quis eyes) the end of the Jedi, so scratch that.

Leaving him behind on Courascant would have left him alone on an alien planet with no one to train him (the Jedi forbid it remember) with nothing much to do until someone comes along and carts him off to Tatooine again, which would have meant the end of the Chosen One and (in Qui's eyes) the end of the Jedi, so scratch that.

So what? From the Council's point of view, none of this matters in the slightest. As you just said yourself, they didn't think he should be trained anyway, so there was absolutely no reason to let him go with Qui-Gon. The minute the decision was made, he should have been taken off Qui-Gon's hands - forcibly, if necessary.

And considering how young the Jedi in AotC were, it looks like they get sent out in danger way before adulthood. Again, training to become a Jedi is, you know, dangerous.

Which Jedi in AotC? All the main characters are well into adulthood (well, technically, at least), and as far as I remember, most of the minor characters are as well. If we're talking 'over sixteen', I guess that might be just about acceptable in a desperate situation. If we're talking 'fifteen or under', that's simply another example of how stupid and negligent the Council is.

The reason the Jedi give in and let Obi train Anakin is that they've realised that,　like Qui Gon, Obi will train Anakin regardless of what they say.

What do you mean, 'regardless of what they say'? They should have ways of enforcing their decisions, for God's sake! Obi-Wan is doing something that they've not only strictly forbidden, but consider dangerous - they should be threatening him with suspension or expulsion from the Order, and if that doesn't work, they should simply take Anakin away from him (again, forcibly if necessary) and kick him out for insubordination.

OK, how about we forget about all that and let me ask this instead, if Qui hadn't taken him, how would Qui have been assured that Anakin would be trained as a Jedi, thus making him powerful enough to eventually defeat the sith? Because neither of these two things would have done it. And on top of that theres the "no attachments" policy right? The Jedi were afraid of that in Anakin, a fear thats actually justified and which actually leads him to the darkside in the end.

Correct - which is precisely why they should never have allowed him to be trained in the first place. You're making exactly the type of argument that I was complaining about in my last post - "well, it had to happen like that in order to advance the plot". I repeat: if Lucas had written a better plot in the first place, this would not have been necessary.

[barend]

im starting to think maybe anikan was the chosen one...

although there was 20 years or so of totalitarian dictatorship, ultimatley, killing the jedi order was for the best.

[CowboyCurtis]

Helena, your comments just made me realize something! I may be reading into it too much, (let me first say I totally agree with what you say 100%!!!), but Lucas created Qui-Gon Jinn in order to "redeem" the character of Obi-Wan.

Of course, it's a totally misguided effort! Lucas perhaps realized, "I've turned Obi-Wan into a liar and delusional dink in the OT," so he created Qui-Gon to keep Obi-Wan from being a totally responsible in finding Anakin, and training him, and ultimately creating a monster. By making Obi-Wan obligated to train Anakin rather than actually "taking it upon himself," and even giving him dialogue that he's worried about Anakin's arrogance and pride and veering off into dark side territory, it exempts the character.

Again, like I say, it's a completely misguided effort to write it this way and conflicts with what we know from the OT. So, in a strange "point of view" Lucas was trying to exonerate Obi-Wan. And I stress again, I totally disagree with the approach.

Hmmmm...


But in regards to the Jedi Council and Anakin, it is totally irresponsible of them to reject ANYONE who has potential in becoming a Jedi. I mean, just the act of rejecting them could make them bitter and resentful and become a dark sider. For a Jedi Council that has been around for a "thousand generations" you'd think they'd have a means to deal with this, like sending them off to a place that would train them to "temper" their abilities, to control it even if they're not complete material for a Jedi. Totally irresponsible of them to not do something like that.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 07 May 2006 - 11:17 PM

[Helena]

im starting to think maybe anikan was the chosen one...

although there was 20 years or so of totalitarian dictatorship, ultimatley, killing the jedi order was for the best.

You've only just begun to think that? I came to that conclusion straight after watching TPM, and AotC only reinforced it. The Jedi Order and the Republic are, by an almost ludicrously wide margin, the most incompetent organisations I have ever seen or heard of - and I'm a Politics student. It's no wonder the Empire took over so easily - no matter how nasty and brutal a regime it was, it must have seemed like a godsend compared to the cretins who ruled the place beforehand.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Lucas has achieved with the PT is the remarkable feat of making me sympathise with the Empire. Those who believe that Lucas is an Evil Fascist Nazi would probably claim that this is what he wanted in the first place. I don't agree with this, because a) I don't believe Lucas is anywhere near that intelligent and b) most of the Sith in the PT are just as stupid and incompetent as the good guys. The only reason Palpatine comes out on top is that he's slightly less of a moron than all the others, therefore he wins by default.

Of course, it's a totally misguided effort! Lucas perhaps realized, "I've turned Obi-Wan into a liar and delusional dink in the OT," so he created Qui-Gon to keep Obi-Wan from being a totally responsible in finding Anakin, and training him, and ultimately creating a monster. By making Obi-Wan obligated to train Anakin rather than actually "taking it upon himself," and even giving him dialogue that he's worried about Anakin's arrogance and pride and veering off into dark side territory, it exempts the character.

IIRC, Chefelf made the same point already in one of his 'Reasons to hate' lists. I'm not sure I believe that Lucas did it deliberately, but otherwise I'm in full agreement with both of you.

Actually, this gives me an idea for a new thread...

[CowboyCurtis]

IIRC, Chefelf made the same point already in one of his 'Reasons to hate' lists.

Did he? How did I miss that?... (Better read it again..)

[barend]

helena, i've always thought wasting the coucil was a good idea...
they had grown so stagneant.


i'm just getting to the point where i realized that they were right at least about one thing... he was indeed the chosen one.

he killed the dead weight... and finnally gave the few remaining good guys something to do with their time rather than sit around being dull to the world that needed them. to keep their minds active and healthy.

fuck the jedi order, vader wiped out the crap ones to make way for his son, who would actually save people when they needed it.

[Helena]

IIRC, Chefelf made the same point already in one of his 'Reasons to hate' lists.

Did he? How did I miss that?... (Better read it again..)

*searches* Ah yes, reason #67 from the AotC list...

Why is Obi-Wan always right? He's totally against Palpatine because he's "a politician" yet sees nothing wrong with protecting Amidala who is also a politician. This serves to make Obi-Wan seem like a hypocrite but at the same time makes him cool because he doesn't trust Palpatine who, as we all know, is evil. Obi-Wan was supposed to be a conflicted Jedi who mistakenly tried to train Anakin and did a poor job. Now his character is made to be a wise know-it-all who just happens to get stuck with a psychopath for a Padawan.

[jariten]

Why is Obi-Wan always right? He's totally against Palpatine because he's "a politician" yet sees nothing wrong with protecting Amidala who is also a politician

What on earth? This is a classic example of people just seeing exactly what they want to see, then taking it from there.
Obi said that he doesn't trust Padme either, he doesn't trust any politicians. Wheres the hypocricy then? Because he didn't refuse the direct orders of the Jedi council?

It's no wonder the Empire took over so easily - no matter how nasty and brutal a regime it was, it must have seemed like a godsend compared to the cretins who ruled the place beforehand

Er...yeah.

[barend]

"Because he didn't refuse the direct orders of the Jedi council?"

the line "...I thought i could train him has well as yoda..." rather gives the impression that obiwan DID at some point defy the order to some extent.

but i haven't watched the OT this century... so i'll just back out untill after september.

[Helena]

Er...yeah.

I mean it. I am dead serious about this, jariten, just like I'm dead serious about preferring to associate with Vader than Anakin. Any real-life government that was run as badly as that wouldn't last twenty minutes, let alone twenty thousand years. Instead of answering the question of how the Republic fell, the only thing the PT achieves is to make me wonder how the hell it lasted so long in the first place.

[Sailor Abbey]

I always dug the empire. The PT made me like ‘em even more. I still cheer for them to this day when watching the OT, even though I know what’s going to happen.

...maybe, just maybe one of these times those rebels will get what’s coming to ‘em. Morons!

[Jejef Thgaron]

I mean it. I am dead serious about this, jariten, just like I'm dead serious about preferring to associate with Vader than Anakin. Any real-life government that was run as badly as that wouldn't last twenty minutes, let alone twenty thousand years. Instead of answering the question of how the Republic fell, the only thing the PT achieves is to make me wonder how the hell it lasted so long in the first place.

Um... any real-life government that was run as badly as that wouldn't last twenty minutes...

hmmm...

How come Dubya was voted in for a second term?

[jariten]

Any real-life government that was run as badly as that wouldn't last twenty minutes, let alone twenty thousand years

The TPM era government was inefficient (and how do you know how it was run 100 years ago let alone 20,000?), thats why they voted Palpatine in so quickly.

And even an inefficient government is not the same as a government who murders millions and keeps power throiugh fear now is it. Come on.

[barend]

I mean it. I am dead serious about this, jariten, just like I'm dead serious about preferring to associate with Vader than Anakin. Any real-life government that was run as badly as that wouldn't last twenty minutes, let alone twenty thousand years. Instead of answering the question of how the Republic fell, the only thing the PT achieves is to make me wonder how the hell it lasted so long in the first place.

mmm, not that i'm dissagreeing with your point... but you've obviously never lived in australia.

And even an inefficient government is not the same as a government who murders millions and keeps power throiugh fear now is it. Come on.

and you've obviously never lived in the USA!!