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Reason 17 NT references to OT

#46 User is offline   Harmonica Icon

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE
The fact that he isn't in the film, and so cant be considered part of the film?

I don't see how we can even argue about that, its just a fact.


As I mentioned before, I'd have to disagree with you there, particularly as your use of the word "fact" to describe your opinion. Yes, it's a fact that the scene was deleted. We all know and acknowledge that. There's no need for redundancy. However, you've yet to provide one reason why it's an established fact that deleted scenes suddenly don't count as a part of the actual movie. Sure, it wasn't in the current theatrical cut that we saw, but movie directors are notorious for claiming that the cut that people have seen in the theaters differs greatly from their actual vision. This is because, typically, the directors already have the completed movie beforehand.

However, directors still have a responsibility to their distributors. This process more or less consists of a representative of the film saying "Well, we've finished the movie. Are you ready to receive it?" Since the average consumer is more likely to see a shorter movie, in addition to the fact that a theater can have more showings of a shorter movie, the distributors are predisposed toward cutting movies. That's how you run businesses. "They want to see the complete movie? Let 'em buy it when it's released on DVD/VHS." In my own personal experience, I've yet to see a single movie where the Distributors were happy with the original length. Directors are in essence subservient in this situation, and time cuts generally account for most deleted scenes. A rather infamous example that illustrates this is the movie Greed, which originally clocked in at a whopping nine hours, twenty minutes. They actually had to go through multiple directors and editors (if memory serves, the first got it to seven hours, the second to five, the third to four hours, and then one more) before they finally got the movie down to a presentable, yet not even vaguely coherent two hours.

The only other instances of deleted scenes that occur are usually "alternate scenes" that are either met by harsh test audience critique, or are improvised (as in not in the script or the screenplay) and serve as little more than slightly serious outtakes. Neither of which applies to Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace.

Doesn't it seem to be logical that if a director doesn't want a scene to be in a movie, he or she will not go through the trouble of filming it? We've got to remember, it's not like they just set things up, shoot one take, and put it in. Even simple scenes can take hours of work (particularly if you're working with child actors) to get one usable take. Unless the director finds some form of twisted gratification in wasting time, they simply avoid filming it. I'd also just like to mention that the directors usually have not written the script either. If a scene comes off as clunky or misplaced, it is usually the writer's responsibility to remove it. Of course, the director sometimes conflicts with the view and the scene is cut. By all means, this should not apply if the director and the script-writer are the same person. Besides, is it particularly fair to take the time and effort of the collective actors and crew who worked to make a scene that doesn't even make it into the movie?

At this point, I'd just like to point out that they used to solve the problem of the removed scenes via Director's cuts (which, contrary to Basher revisionist History, George Lucas was neither the first, nor the last to do so and irritate fans of the original cuts), wherein all such scenes were tracked down and inserted into the movie by way of re-editting. Now, with the advent of DVDs, it's possible to include the scenes without going to the trouble of extensive re-editting. It's just a simple clip, bam, she's in there, it's done. DVDs are basically their own directors cut. Scenes the director really doesn't fancy or can't locate (i.e., the scene where Wald wished Anakin luck before the race) simply don't make it in.

Now, they still do make Directors Cut DVDs, but of course, as I mentioned before, these accompany extensive re-editting, usually for the purpose of cleaning up the visuals or the sound et cetera (See Star Wars Special Edition DVDs). Funny thing about these DVDs: They don't have deleted scenes. Every scene that would have been featured on the former DVD's library? In the movie. Lucas is no exception to this vain of thought. That's why we have such scenes as Han walking all over Jabba the Hutt, or those few shots of Darth Vader heading for his ship (See Chefelf's Reasons to Hate Star Wars Special Edition DVDs). It's not only possible, but it seems to me highly likely that we'll see the scene on a future Edition. Lucas probably would have done so sooner, but, well, it just makes sense to release multiple versions of the movie at different times. dry.gif

Another factor that you seem to be ignoring is, unlike nearly any other movie out there, Star Wars has its own set of approved, external canon, used to both fill in the blanks and give extra insights. Time and again, Lucas has acknowledged that this canon exists, so I don't think you can simply discount the canon just like that. For instance, look at the Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith deleted scenes. There's a scene where General Grievous kills Shaak Ti via a lightsaber through the spine, which was removed because it violated the canon! In the novelization, Shaak Ti got wasted by Anakin, so Grievous's murder was a contradiction to that. Whether or not any of us has reverence or respect for the canon is irrelevant. It's there. It's considered official by the most official sources (the creators of the movie). Anakin's Scuffle with Greedo is a stark contrast to this; it fits the canon, it's in the Lucas-approved novelization. And, (I can provide as many websites as you want to conclusively prove) it is on the DVD. wacko.gif

Of course, even if you still disagree with me on my classification of deleted scenes, none of this changes the fact that George Lucas still conceived, wrote, and filmed the scene. He said to himself "I think I'll have Anakin know Greedo. This is surely a good idea." I mean no offense by this remark, but I'm curious as to whether it's just the usual Lucas Apologism dictating that a battle must be fought to somehow discount the scene and remove all accountability from the Flanneled One about his mistakes?

I, personally, am only mildly irritated by the scene. (I thought that Yoda being good friends with Chewie was where the line of random characters knowing each other was crossed, whereas Anakin and Greedo, at least born on the same planet, would be a bit more likely, but that's just me). Hell, a couple months back on another site, I actually saw some pretty fair and convincing arguments as to why the scene should have been included (some will find it interesting to note that one of the higher priority reasons was so that people stopped confusing Wald with Greedo laugh.gif ). But I accept it, as I do all deleted scenes, good and bad, of all movies, for the reasons that I have provided.

Now, the DVD deleted Scene library ostensibly provides a commentary outlining why the scenes didn't make it to the final cut. Theoretically, there are answers there, which if they exist, overrule my assessment of directors and the Flanneled Fatass in general. Again, I neither possess the item nor any desire to buy said item, but others have. If Lucas or McCallum explicitly states (and I would like a verbatim response) anything along the lines of "Well, we all thought that Anakin knowing Greedo was a silly idea. I/George must have been sniffing glue, drunk, and simultaneously doing Scarface-esque levels of drugs the day that I/he came up with that concept. Please, do not count it as part of the movie", I will recant what I have said and accept that that particular scene cannot be considered as part of the movie and that it is an invalid criticism.
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#47 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 01:36 AM

I can't believe you're making me write this again.

By in the movie I mean, of cousre, INCLUDED IN THE MOVIE.

ONLY SCENES INCLUDED IN THE MOVIE CAN BE INCLUDED IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE MOVIE.

If we want to talk about deleted scenes, fine, lets talk about deleted scenes. But understand that, until Lucas includes the scene in a future release of TPM (which I doubt he will, but you never know) it can't be used as a critisicm.

The fact that its not in the movie is a FACT, sorry. Its not an opinion. If I say "the scene was crap", thats an opinion. If I say, "there is a scene in TPM where Obi kills Maul", that is a fact.

If I say "there is a scene in TPM where Anakin fights with Greedo", then that is a lie, because no such scene exists. If I say "there is a deleted scene where Anakin fights Greedo", that is a fact.

BUT AS IT STANDS IT IS NOT PART OF THE PHANTOM MENACE.

Thats all i'm saying.

He removed it for a reason. Why? Running time? Did he decide last second that he thought it was crap? Message from God? who knows.

But, here it is for the final time.

I'M NOT DENYING THE SCENE DOESN'T EXIST, ONLY THAT THE SCENE DOES NOT EXIST IN THE FILM. IT IS NOT PART OF TPM.

I know you know this. if you don't, watch the film again and find it for me. You wont.

Why are we still taking about this?

As for all that 'canon' shit, all I care about is whats in the films. Everything else is EU to me.
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#48 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 08:41 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 19 2006, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for all that 'canon' shit, all I care about is whats in the films. Everything else is EU to me.


So Darth Plageius had no father either.

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 19 2006, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know you know this. if you don't, watch the film again and find it for me.


Jar, I'd rather give in than do that. Matter of FACT, imho, watching the film again IS giving in.

Lucas apologist yell.gif
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#49 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 04:49 PM




"IT'S LIKE SCREAMING AT A WALL!
IT'S LIKE SCREAMING AT A WALL!
IT'S LIKE SCREAMING AT A WALL!
SOMEDAY IT'S GONNA FALL!"

http://www.dischord....northreat.shtml

Seriously though, I expected more from you than another casual dismissal with one hand and fingers in the ears with the other. Either come back with actual words that explain why you think what i'm saying is wrong, or why bother?
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#50 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 04:56 PM

When you saw it, you seriously didn't think it was Baby Greedo?

When you saw it, you seriously didn't think it was Baby Greedo?

When you saw it, you seriously didn't think it was Baby Greedo?

If you don't like Chef's lists, pretend they don't exist. Therefore this forum doesn't exist.
You still haven't told me if Darth Plageious had a father.

edit: ps- Harmonica had a Fabulous post, and I defer to the evidence which he produced. I wasn't expecting more, but I WAS disappointed by your retort.

This post has been edited by Despondent: 19 April 2006 - 04:57 PM

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#51 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 06:34 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 17 2006, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But you understand why you can't though, right?


oh sure... for the same reason you can't refer to a cartoon series for answers or fill in information.
what's in the films is all that really counts when crtitizising the trilogy or discussing the story.

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 17 2006, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(and what ep3 deleted scenes are you referring to out of interest?)

i was hoping to do a thread devoted to this... and i eventually will (with pix)
but... (if you dissagree with anyof this, save it for when i do the thread)

1. general grevious in the corridor (it showed grevious actually killing a jedi, it showed anikan and obiwan exchanging little signals that i thought actually shone some light on the prospect of an actual friendship)

2. the meeting with padme, palpatine, and others... when the others leave there's a great bit of dialogue between palpy and annie that actually illistrates an element to their relation ship not seen elsewhere in the PT and actually is a nice pre-curser reference to specific dialogue in the OT. (this scene alone is the most consistant thing to tie the PT to the OT)

3. not necessary... but ther was something nice about having yoda landing on degobar... as much as i hate PT yoda... it was sort of closure.

there may have been another, but lke i said i'll discuss it more in depth later.
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#52 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 07:10 PM

RE: Greedo

the fact of the matter is that there's an infant rodian there. besides the fact that obiwan met baby boba fett, anikan made c3p0, yoda knew chewbacca, etc. etc. please for the love jesus titty fucking christ don't make me type out the whole list again... it's in the script, there's a deleted scene... the fact is we know he inteded it to be greedo. sure... maybe better judgment (no doubt in the form of a coffe boy named cameron was later fired for talking to his holiness) came along and Lucas decided it might be less STUPID to call him Walder or something.

but the fact remains... he was planning to do something really bad there.
and its something that's just gotta make you cringe.
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#53 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 11:01 PM

QUOTE
but the fact remains... he was planning to do something really bad there.
and its something that's just gotta make you cringe.


Yes, he was. And it would have been terrible. The fact is that he didn't. Wald is Wald, not Greedo. We know that he never intended it to be Greedo in fact, because in the script he refers to Wald as 'a Greedo type' (amusing that he couldn't remember the name of the species!), i.e not Greedo.

Greedo is not in the film, and therefore not important. and I agree with your cartoons comment too. A film should be judged on content alone.

and start that deleted scenes thread!

D- I know I shouldn’t respond now but I’m going to anyway. Your one retort to my posts was ‘Lucas apologist!’. I mean, come on, you didn’t even try.
It was time to break out Ian Mackaye.
Whether I thought it was Greedo or not is irrelevant (I didn’t as it happens), the fact is it ISN’T.
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#54 User is offline   Harmonica Icon

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 12:21 AM

QUOTE
I can't believe you're making me write this again.

By in the movie I mean, of cousre, INCLUDED IN THE MOVIE.


I apologize that you feel the need to repeat that hollow phrase as though it's some kind of mantra, but , as I must unfortunately also repeat myself, I do not agree with you on that. That's one part of having an *opinion* that one should really get used to.

QUOTE
Greedo is not in the film


I used to repeat to myself "The Prequels do not exist." over and over to myself each day. It wasn't at all true, but hey, it was a useful coping mechanism that allowed me to trick myself into believing all sorts of kooky things. cool.gif

QUOTE
A film should be judged on content alone.


See, for me, the content of movies is made up of more than just however many thousand differing frames arranged together in a sequence. Like all art (as distasteful as I find it to use this term in reference to the Prequels, I still acknowledge they are indeed art), there is more to them than what one person simply sees and thinks that he or she understands. There are tons of factors to it. Context for one. Ideas for another. The forum, the material, the reasons the artist created it. They're all relevant, but even moreso is the artist's vision.

For instance, how about I show you an image of Christ on the cross, brilliantly lit, and golden. Visually enticing and everything.

Seriously. Stop reading my post right now and look at it.










Now, a little space.








Come on, don't cheat.








Y'done lookin' at it? No? Go back and look more. More!










Okay, now how would you describe Christ's depiction? Noble? Inspiring? Beautiful? A heart-warming portrayal? And the artist, a strong Christian? That's the answer that I get ten times out of ten when I show it to people.











Oh, by the way, did I forget to mention that that's a picture of a crucifix in a jar of urine, aptly named by the artist as "Piss Christ"? Yes, you read that right. The artist literally put Jesus in a jar and whizzed on him as many times as it took to fill the jar. ( smile.gif The more I think about it, the more fitting I find using this analogy in regard to the Prequels... ) Go back again and look at it. Doesn't quite seem the same now that that brilliant gold shimmer turned out to be Number One, does it? biggrin.gif

Say what you will, when someone makes something, their original intent and vision are just as, if not more so, important than what the audience has simply seen. Lucas has repeatedly demonstrated that he adheres to this philosophy. And why else do you think that directors go to the effort of having Making-Of things, Commentaries, deleted scenes? Why do you think that Lucas released a DVD anyway (aside from the fact that he's a narcissistic blowhard whose ego is matched only by his avarice and only *surpassed* by the girth of that freaky goiter thing growing on his neck)?

As such, the fact that the reels in whatever theaters were watched didn't include the deleted seens? Irrelevant. Say it as many times as you need, but that's a non-issue to me, no matter how many times you wrongly mislabel your opinion as fact. Anakin's Scuffle with Greedo differs from Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul by the universal smallest degree, seen in use everywhere, a pithy technicality. Technicalities alone aren't good enough for me to reject something (incidentally, neither are posts that don't even attempt to actually address any of the points I have made) . If Lucas wanted the scene in the movie, then, to me, Anakin's Scuffle with Greedo should be taken into consideration about the movie.

QUOTE
same reason you can't refer to a cartoon series for answers or fill in information.


Oh, I agree that the EU has a shameful habit of covering the bilious folds of Lucas's ass as it tries (and succeeds) each day to suck down more and more of that lifeless chunk of meat that he calls his head. dry.gif Most of those parts in fact came after the fact and from different authors anyway. But that's not the issue right now.

QUOTE
The fact that its not in the movie is a FACT, sorry.


If it's a fact, it can be supported by more than mere repetition of an empty statement. You've yet to give one reason why no one can validly hold the same point of view that I hold. Until then, it's little more than opinion. Sorry, Charlie.

QUOTE
BUT AS IT STANDS IT IS NOT PART OF THE PHANTOM MENACE.


OMG REALLY LARGE LETTERS ARE REALLY FUN TO USE AND I LIKE TYPING IN ALL CAPS HA HA HA.

....That was rude of me. Sorry.

Anyway, it's not included on any of the reels that were shown in theaters. But as I've already pointed out, The Phantom Menace is more than a bunch of images cobbled together (personally, any description that lacks the word "Clusterfuck" is too inaccurate for me smile.gif ) . I can point at the Phantom Menace DVD and say "That is the Phantom Menace movie." It's a part of the DVD, so saying I see no problem in then saying "The scene is part of that [The Phantom Menace movie]". Sure, it's not in the sequence of scenes, but it is still included and accessible. What happens if I watch the scenes out of order? Or, what if I watch the scenes, then at various points, pause it and then check out the deleted scenes and then return and finish? Am I not still watching the movie? But, anyway, I'm on a slight tangent right now so I'll try to get back to the point.

QUOTE
He removed it for a reason.


Now then, since the Director's view on the scene does matter, here, I'm going to move into a bit of Speculation (Insert Collective Gasp of Surprise Here). I speculate, as I have been, that Lucas wanted the scene in, cut it against his will, and, if given the chance, would put it in again. Sure, you can say "But Harmonica, you are only a crazed, irrational Basher who is making a guess." And I admit, you would be correct. Speculation is inherently malleable and prone to change. But that doesn't mean that speculation is some sort of stigma and should never be made.


You may have heard of a little-known man named O.J. Simpson. He was a football player, former movie star, etc. He was indicted under suspicion of a nothing crime known as Double Homicide. The prosecution provided all that it could to make the argument that he had in fact stabbed two people to death. Part of their speculation involved what people sometimes call "DNA Evidence". Of course, the jury, open-minded to theories as they were, saw through the obviously extraneous information and unanimously voted Not Guilty, because, let's face it, the entire case against Simpson was little more than some kind of bizarre speculation designed to defame everyone's favorite former-Football player.

But really, sarcasm aside, speculation is more than just saying "Well, I think this. This is a fact and you can't argue with me." Making assessments based on gathered evidence is not some sort of capital crime that people should be stoned for. There is information that backs it up, making it superior to simply stating something with no support whatsoever, or saying that because something cannot be proven, it should even be discussed. I have at least provided evidence and information to back my case up, rather than simply repeating "IT WAS CUT BECAUSE LUCAS NEEDED TIME!" I've given evidence, based off of interviews and quotes I've seen of Lucas and other directors, whose validity anyone can argue about if they want, though I've yet to really see any form of a logical refute other than dismissal and repetition. And even if you don't believe me, speculation with evidence is still and always will be inherently superior to the baseless speculation without.

Besides, given the fact that scenes being cut in accordance with time constraints in the norm, even if I hadn't provided any evidence, unless one can give any sort of reason why Lucas and that particular scene are somehow unique and special and different from every single other movie, it can logically be assumed that the scene was cut for the same reason most others are.

QUOTE
Why? Running time? Did he decide last second that he thought it was crap? Message from God? who knows


I imagine Lucas or his slaves cohorts know. And as I have stated before, the deleted scene comes with commentary that apparently explains precisely why each scene was cut. Since I do not possess the DVD, I do not know what reasons are given, hence why I am speculating. But I acknowledged (and still do) that a direct quote from the Flanneled Fuckwit or even one of his servants cronies would be enough to override my evidence and silence me on this argument.

QUOTE
As for all that 'canon' shit, all I care about is whats in the films. Everything else is EU to me.


So not only are you saying that the movie's script is EU and the movie's DVD is EU, ( rolleyes.gif ) but also the fact that Lucas, long touted by fans as the be-all to end-all absolute authority on Star Wars, who acknowledges and praises the canon and uses chunks of it in his movies, doesn't even know his own creation?


....

mellow.gif

...Actually, I could believe that. wink.gif
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#55 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 12:25 AM

QUOTE
D- I know I shouldn’t respond now but I’m going to anyway. Your one retort to my posts was ‘Lucas apologist!’. I mean, come on, you didn’t even try.

No; I let you get me pissed just like you wanted. And I was at work and didn't have the time to approach from Yet another angle. You dismiss them all anyway; really, what's the point of repeating ourselves?

But you have to admit, on a contiuum with Lucas kissass on the far left and Lucas let me down hard ass on the far right, you lean more left of center than most anyone here.

As for ‘Lucas apologist!’ being my one retort to your posts; it's the singular one you've refuted, I'll give you that.

This post has been edited by Despondent: 20 April 2006 - 12:52 AM

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#56 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 01:58 AM

Harmonica, you’ve descended into the realms of madness.

You are basically trying to tell me that something exists in a film even if it is not present IN ANY SCENE OF THE FILM from the second it starts until it finishes.

You are either doing this intentionally to annoy me for some reason (I’m more bewildered btw, I’ve never heard a continuous argument more irrational than this for a long time).

I use capitals because I’m typing this at work on Word, so I cut and paste and post before someone catches me at it (it does the same job as italics, more or less).

Again, before the stars clear from my spinning eyes completely, let me just try to clarify what you’re saying (because I still don’t believe it)

Even if a scene does not exist in the film (and I’ve explained what this means quite enough), then it still exists in the film?

Can anyone else make sense of this? Barend? Civ? Anyone?

And D- it was never my intention to piss anyone off, believe it or not.
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#57 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 03:21 AM

p.s.
Let me put it this way, and hopefully end this boring argument for good (I think we can both agree its tiresome)

Nobody can deny that it is a fact that Greedo does not appear in either the DVD or theatrical release of TPM.

Based on that fact, I state that the scene, since it doesn't exist in the film, cannot be considered part of the film.

I say "state", not "argue", because to me personally it seems like a no-brainer.

Or, to put it another way

QUOTE
de·lete
To remove by striking out or canceling: deleted some unnecessary words in the first draft.


Remove, cancel, get rid of, take out etc.

Yet you still insist on considering something that has been removed from the film, i.e something that no longer exists in the film, part of the film.

I don't see how a million essay long posts you could make (and i'm sure you could make them. I've made more than a few too) could remove the non-sensical core of that argument.

QUOTE
Sure, you can say "But Harmonica, you are only a crazed, irrational Basher who is making a guess." And I admit, you would be correct.


Brilliant!

This post has been edited by jariten: 20 April 2006 - 03:23 AM

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#58 User is offline   Harmonica Icon

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 09:44 PM

Whoops. Silly enter button. Trix are for kids!

This post has been edited by Harmonica: 20 April 2006 - 09:45 PM

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#59 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 09:51 PM

QUOTE (Harmonica @ Apr 20 2006, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, by the way, did I forget to mention that that's a picture of a crucifix in a jar of urine, aptly named by the artist as "Piss Christ"? Yes, you read that right. The artist literally put Jesus in a jar and whizzed on him as many times as it took to fill the jar. ( smile.gif The more I think about it, the more fitting I find using this analogy in regard to the Prequels... ) Go back again and look at it. Doesn't quite seem the same now that that brilliant gold shimmer turned out to be Number One, does it? biggrin.gif


what's really unimpressive is that whoever carfully sculpted the crucifix in the first place didn't receive any kudos...

it's like everything that comes out of holywood these days...
someone sits down and creates something out of love and passion putting all their effort into it in a thankless devotion to art and personal belief... then some wanker comes along and pisses on it and takes all the fame and credit... and becomes rich.

the fact that's urine in no way shocked me when this so called 'artwork' was released...

it did, however, shock me that he was revered for plagerism. the talentless wann-be-shock-rock muthafucker...
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Posted 20 April 2006 - 10:07 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 19 2006, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, he was. And it would have been terrible. The fact is that he didn't. Wald is Wald, not Greedo. We know that he never intended it to be Greedo in fact, because in the script he refers to Wald as 'a Greedo type' (amusing that he couldn't remember the name of the species!), i.e not Greedo.


actually he did originally intend it to be... he later changed it, and as he always does acted as if it never happened (his speciality)

but the fact that it no longer is is a credit to him (or cameron the coffe boy)

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 19 2006, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Greedo is not in the film, and therefore not important. and I agree with your cartoons comment too. A film should be judged on content alone.


well thank the gods...

because i never felt there was a point i had made more inmportant on these boards...

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 19 2006, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
and start that deleted scenes thread!


soon, sorry, will do...

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 19 2006, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
D- I know I shouldn’t respond now but I’m going to anyway. Your one retort to my posts was ‘Lucas apologist!’. I mean, come on, you didn’t even try.
It was time to break out Ian Mackaye.
Whether I thought it was Greedo or not is irrelevant (I didn’t as it happens), the fact is it ISN’T.


i was annoyed that that site under 'see also' made no reference to PAILHEAD...
Ian Mackay, Al Jourgenson, Paul Barker.

i actually quoted the song 'man should surrender' on another thread here somewhere just the other day...

one of the best CDs ever...
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