[Madam Corvax]

But we prove God by applying logic that everything must have cause. We cannot suddenly exclude God from this logic, because then the statement "God is all powerful and everlasting" does not fit into this logical reasoning.

[civilian_number_two]

Jordan, why the argument is BS is that it proposes something and then without proving it, concludes something else. "Every Effect has a Cause," ergo there is some Cause that had NO Effect. Wait a minute! I thought every effect had a cause! What's this Unmoved Mover business? A few hundred thousand steps were jumped there. If anything, the argument shows a logical conundrum: if we believe the Universe is Finite, and we believe that every Effect has a Cause, then we find a contradiction. Since we presently still believe the Universe to be Finite, then we have to understand that the notion "Every Effect has a Cause" is incorrect. Our assumption is false. This isn't a proof of God, only a proof (assuming the Universe is in fact finite, since THAT could be wrong as wellor instead) that there is at least one Effect that had NO Cause. That Effect for this argument probbaly being the "Big Bang."

MC: Einstein wasn't meant to be used as evidence to "make you Christian," only to make you understand that the suggestion "religious peple can't think for themselves" is bigotry. I never said Einstein tried to make other people believe in God, only tht he was a religious person who sure as heck could think for himself. I don't know why you're hammering me about whether Einstein was Christian or not. Whatever, talk about Isaac Newton instead, but don't lose sight of the point of my mentioning it. I am not trying to make you a Christian. I am not a Christian.

[barend]

There's only one thing i have to say on the bible....

there are many who follow it, and there are many who attack it, it's just funny that nobody's read it.



the bible: the most sold and least read book ever.

[Zatoichi]

There's only one thing i have to say on the bible....

there are many who follow it, and there are many who attack it, it's just funny that nobody's read it.



the bible: the most sold and least read book ever.

? I've read it. I also hear at least three or four readings a week from it.
edit: Oh, wait, ... nevermind.

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 28 February 2006 - 07:31 PM

[barend]

a sermon, in most cases, is a lot like hearing someone say "play it again sam."

having heard it is in no way the equivilant of watching 'Casablanca'
and more importantly it's not quite what Bogart actually says.

This post has been edited by barend: 28 February 2006 - 08:05 PM

[Jordan]

Did you know, that no one ever said "play it again sam" during Casbalanca. Little food for thought.

[Zatoichi]

What the Hell do you want out of me?!

I said I read it, in fact I've read it more than once.
Only one of the readings is the sermon.

and I said "Oh, wait, ... nevermind."

What are you trying to prove?!

[barend]

that sermons and 'readings' have little merit.

but if you read it good for you... there must be like twelve people now who've read it cover to cover.

unless you read the good news version... that doesn't count. they altered shit.

if people had read the bible they wouldn't say 'hale mary's' or carry crosses, or eat pork, shellfish, goat, and lobster or watch 'crossing over'
that's for sure...

[Spoon Poetic]

I've read it! Cover to cover, and I've studied it in-depth. You're right about the Hail Marys and the crosses, I'm not sure what that show is (I don't watch television much), but the eating thing, that was a part of the Old Covenant, which was replaced by the New Covenant.

[barend]

the eating thing was not replaced by anything...

the basic jist is... jesus died, you can stop killing lambs now.

it doesn't say shit about pigs and prawns suddenly inventing agriculture and seizing to be 'unclean' scavangers unfit for human consumption.

bacon tastes great as does all expensive sea food and i'll go to hell before giving them up, but theres no point in there were that suddenly changes...

people just like to say that it doesn't apply to them because they're selective about which bits they want to listen to... then others follow their example and before you know it everyone's convinced that its doctrine.



"no no, that bits just for the jews" is the number one christian cop-out ever

[Spoon Poetic]

Actually - God gave Peter (or was it Paul? I always get the P names mixed up, bad with names) a dream where there was a big meal of "unclean" foods like pork and shellfish and what not, and God said, "eat!" and P was all like, no, it's unclean! And God said, "eat!" and P was like, but you said no! And God said "what was unclean I have now made clean." So Peter ate. (It also refered to the Gentiles, meaning that the new Covenant extended to more than just God's "chosen people.")

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 01 March 2006 - 01:14 AM

[barend]

ah the famous lobster stuffed with bacon and prawn dream.... how could i forget?

where exactly is this?

[Spoon Poetic]

Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were traveling and nearing the city, Peter went up to pray on the housetop at about noon. 10 Then he became hungry and wanted to eat, but while they were preparing something he went into a visionary state. 11 He saw heaven opened and an object coming down that resembled a large sheet being lowered to the earth by its four corners. 12 In it were all the four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, and the birds of the sky. 13 Then a voice said to him, "Get up, Peter; kill and eat!" 14 "No, Lord!" Peter said. "For I have never eaten anything common and unclean!" 15 Again, a second time, a voice said to him, "What God has made clean, you must not call common." 16 This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into heaven.

[Madam Corvax]

Spoon – may I ask you if you really read the Bible cover to cover, did you like what you read? All those atrocities, hamstringing of horses, raping virgins, etc. There is one story which I find particularly disgusting - the story of Hamor ans Shechem: Shehem had the misfortune to fall for Jacob’ daughter. Jacob told them, ok, you can have her, but get circumcised first. Poor honorable Hamor ans Shechem agreed and got their tribe circumcised, “And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males” Lovely guys (Genesis 34).

As to bringing new law, here are relevant passages from Matthew:

Matthew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."

Matthew 5:17-20
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, nor the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished”

The thing is, you may find passages to the contrary in gospels

Mark 3.1- 3.4
And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace

That is the problem – it contradicts itself in many places that you can prove just about any dogma by selecting passages.

Civ – why are you so mad at me? I am certainly not “hammering” you. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. I still maintain, that religion, such as taught by Christianity, and about any other religion in the world that I know of, does not hold water and is against reason.
I told you, that in my opinion certainly Einstein was not a devout follower of any religious system that is familiar to me. If he held any religious beliefs, the particulars of these beliefs are unknown to me. Maybe if I knew these, I would change my mind about this aspect of religion in general, but certainly not Judeo-Christian religion, which I hope you agree, Einstein simply dismissed as against reason.

Therefore, examples of intelligent individuals who professedly were theists are not convincing to me, simply because I cannot be sure just how much of their expressed faith was exactly their own. I times of Newton, it was rather dangerous to express such view as non-belief.

[Spoon Poetic]

No, I didn't like much of what I read. People were pretty cruel back then. And just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean what they did was right. Hell, it doesn't mean that God sanctioned it. And Jesus didn't abolish the Law, he developed it, he changed it. "Abolish" would mean that there is no longer Law. There is Law, just it's the Law of the New Covenant instead of the Old Covenant.

The Bible is not the only thing I base my beliefs of off. I had studied, and researched, and studied, and not just Christianity, but all sorts of other religions, and science, etc etc, and also have many, many personal experiences that have shaped my faith. I am not religious - I do not believe in organized religion. Fellowship, yes; learning from each other in a fellowship setting; yes. Unfortunately, people have taken this that the "Church" was originally supposed to be way too far, and also, my beliefs are so different from typical Christian beliefs that there are none like-minded enough for me to be happy with... I'm not even sure I can honestly call myself a "Christian," because even though I believe God is happy with me and my beliefs, I don't know a single "Christian" that would be.

Seeing is believing - I'm just one of the lucky ones that got to actually see some proof, and on several occasions. Who knows, I might be Pagan otherwise.

Do you believe in love? Because love goes against all reason, too.