[brenbran]

kanobi in the last movie right before the big fight with him and anikin, you might recall a conversation they had. Anikan said you are either with me or against me which would be an absolute. And kanobi's responce would be only a sith lord speaks in absolutes that in itself is an absolute. Yoda fith movie we should all recall lukes training, lifting the x wing do or do not there is no try Absolute. They were the only two to live im sorry but we have all been blinded, they are sith lords

[Despondent]

Yeah, you're right. Let's hope Lucas learns about this so he can trowel his classics further.

[Revan-47]

You sound a lot like Jon gutner.

[Prequel dialogue coach]

did larry kasdan write the line "do or do not"?

[Sailor Abbey]

kanobi in the last movie right before the big fight with him and anikin, you might recall a conversation they had. Anikan said you are either with me or against me which would be an absolute. And kanobi's responce would be only a sith lord speaks in absolutes that in itself is an absolute. Yoda fith movie we should all recall lukes training, lifting the x wing do or do not there is no try Absolute. They were the only two to live im sorry but we have all been blinded, they are sith lords

The whole thing was just a big idiot fest. Obi-wan traipsing around all high and mighty, Anakin pretending he actually wants to be a bad guy, and Padme running around 9month pregnant, looking about as pregnant as a card table. I lost some brain cells just remembering that scene.

[Cobnat]

kanobi in the last movie right before the big fight with him and anikin, you might recall a conversation they had. Anikan said you are either with me or against me which would be an absolute. And kanobi's responce would be only a sith lord speaks in absolutes that in itself is an absolute. Yoda fith movie we should all recall lukes training, lifting the x wing do or do not there is no try Absolute. They were the only two to live im sorry but we have all been blinded, they are sith lords

Interesting, I see you only have one post...

btw, Im sure that we all know that Lucas messed up, there are shit loads of things that are in 2,5,6 that dont relate to 1,2,3.

[barend]

i thought yoda said; "to be or not to be."

[Jejef Thgaron]

kanobi in the last movie right before the big fight with him and anikin, you might recall a conversation they had. Anikan said you are either with me or against me which would be an absolute. And kanobi's responce would be only a sith lord speaks in absolutes that in itself is an absolute. Yoda fith movie we should all recall lukes training, lifting the x wing do or do not there is no try Absolute. They were the only two to live im sorry but we have all been blinded, they are sith lords

You need to learn the difference between absolute and choice. You also need to learn the definition of the word absolute. It means complete, or total; ie: You are an absolute moron. Your spelling and punctuation are absolutely horrid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning the English language. I absolutely suggest you do so as soon as absolutely possible. Like, absolutely, dude.

[Gobbler]

Well now, if that wasn't way off-topic and impolite, then I guess I'll have to learn the English language once again.

[Jejef Thgaron]

Well now, if that wasn't way off-topic and impolite, then I guess I'll have to learn the English language once again.

I'm really not trying to be impolite and I am absolutely on-topic. There are at least two different threads on these forums that deal with this same issue. I don't comprehend the reasoning behind giving the same meaning to two very dissimiliar words: Absolute and Choice. On the other thread the word Fact is even thrown in to try to elude the true meaning of the word Absolute. I don't claim to be a teacher, but some of the things that are brought up as complaints about the consistency of these films really boggles my mind. I keep hoping somebody will notice there is a difference between the two words and realize what I am saying... instead of the alternative: People bashing the PT as if they were the worst movies of all time just because those people hate them. It makes me feel like my head is caving in. While there are feasible complaints about the films, there are a lot of complaints that make me wonder what these people are thinking when they're watching the PT. Instead of thinking rationally about a line that was said, most people are relating that line to a line in the OT that has no connection whatsoever. I am only offering my own logical reasoning as to why certain events took place in SW as a whole, not just the PT. Granted, there are a lot of things in SW that are aimed at children, but there is a great amount of things that are aimed at right-thinking logical adults as well. There are books for kids, but there are books for adults, also. If one cannot comprehend what the movies portray, they need to watch the movies again. If they find out that they still can't comprehend these movies, then they have the choice to never watch them again. I'm not trying to ridicule anyone, I just think there are better things to complain about. For instance... Yoda is almost a thousand years old. Speak English (Basic) so well, he can not. Why does Yoda still talk like this? You would think someone should have said, "Look, Yoda... you really need to learn how to speak English properly". That's one of my biggest complaints besides the Ewoks, or Jar Jar Binks.

"There is always a bigger fish." Qui-Gon Jinn, The Phantom Menace

[Sailor Abbey]

You need to learn the difference between absolute and choice. You also need to learn the definition of the word absolute. It means complete, or total; ie: You are an absolute moron. Your spelling and punctuation are absolutely horrid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning the English language. I absolutely suggest you do so as soon as absolutely possible. Like, absolutely, dude.

I don’t think its required to use the word ‘absolute’ in a sentence for the meaning to be absolute.

People bashing the PT as if they were the worst movies of all time just because those people hate them. It makes me feel like my head is caving in. While there are feasible complaints about the films, there are a lot of complaints that make me wonder what these people are thinking when they're watching the PT. Instead of thinking rationally about a line that was said, most people are relating that line to a line in the OT that has no connection whatsoever. I am only offering my own logical reasoning as to why certain events took place in SW as a whole, not just the PT. Granted, there are a lot of things in SW that are aimed at children, but there is a great amount of things that are aimed at right-thinking logical adults as well. There are books for kids, but there are books for adults, also. If one cannot comprehend what the movies portray, they need to watch the movies again. If they find out that they still can't comprehend these movies, then they have the choice to never watch them again. I'm not trying to ridicule anyone, I just think there are better things to complain about. For instance... Yoda is almost a thousand years old. Speak English (Basic) so well, he can not. Why does Yoda still talk like this? You would think someone should have said, "Look, Yoda... you really need to learn how to speak English properly". That's one of my biggest complaints besides the Ewoks, or Jar Jar Binks.

"There is always a bigger fish." Qui-Gon Jinn, The Phantom Menace

You're complaining against people complaining. Oh gods I wish I didn’t have to cough every time I laugh, it really hurts.



'Only a Sith deals in absolutes is not a choice.' Its an absolute. Now let me hit whatever it is you're smokin.

[Jejef Thgaron]

I don’t think its required to use the word ‘absolute’ in a sentence for the meaning to be absolute.
You're complaining against people complaining. Oh gods I wish I didn’t have to cough every time I laugh, it really hurts.
'Only a Sith deals in absolutes is not a choice.' Its an absolute. Now let me hit whatever it is you're smokin.

Actually, no... I'm not complaining against people complaining. I'm irritated at people that don't know the meaning of a word, so they make one up to try to sound like they are intelligent. There is no loophole on this one. Absolute means complete. It does not mean whatever you want it to mean so you can make a point based on the false definition of the word. You laugh because you think I'm complaining about someone else's complaint. I'm not complaining. I'm merely attempting to correct an uneducated ramble about the definition of a word.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is not an absolute. It is a statement. It is Obi-Wan's realization that his Jedi apprentice is turning into a Sith. While this statement is one-sided, it is not an absolute because of the ramifications of the statement. You apparently missed the reason Anakin's statement was an absolute as well as the definition. In no way does Obi-Wan dictate to Anakin that he doesn't have a choice in the matter. He is merely showing Anakin the follies of his judgement. I did not say this line was a choice. It is a statement derived from the Jedi knowledge of how the Sith handle business.

You take absolute to mean that a statement is one-sided. That isn't the meaning of absolute. If I were to command someone they were to kill everyone they love or I was going to kill them, that is an absolute. I'm not giving them a choice. If they said, "Why are you dealing in absolutes?", it is because I gave them an order, i.e.: I have assumed absolute power (I have become a dictator). The Sith are ruthless dictators. Is this an absolute? No. It is a statement based on my knowledge of the truth. That is precisely what Obi-Wan said. He didn't try to assume control of the situation. He didn't tell Anakin, "I'm gonna whoop your ass, unless you stop acting like a Sith Lord". As for what was it... oh, yeah... you want to hit whatever it is I'm smoking. I don't think you could handle a nice fresh inhalation of reality. My only drugs of choice are caffeine, nicotine, and an occasional beer and it makes me wonder what you are smoking if you still don't understand the difference between dictatorship and diplomacy... wait, let me clarify for you (that means make it easy to understand) absolute and realization. I have come to the realization that if you still don't understand the difference between the two, it must be very hard to put down whatever it is you are smoking. Absolutely hard, that is.

[Harmonica]

I'm irritated at people that don't know the meaning of a word, so they make one up to try to sound like they are intelligent.

As opposed to not knowing that words have multiple meanings and trying to assert that the first one in the dictionary is the only correct usage?

There is no loophole on this one. Absolute means complete.

So the only possible definition of absolute is "complete"? So, no other definitions are valid?

My, you're being rather... absolute about that.

It does not mean whatever you want it to mean so you can make a point based on the false definition of the word.

So does it mean whatever you want it to mean so that you can make a point based on one out of several definitions?

I'm merely attempting to correct an uneducated ramble about the definition of a word.

Subjective opinion. This is different from whatever everyone else thinks they're doing... how?

In no way does Obi-Wan dictate to Anakin that he doesn't have a choice in the matter.

What about when he immediately afterward ignites his lightsaber, has a battle to the death with Anakin, and sets him on fire?

It is a statement derived from the Jedi knowledge of how the Sith handle business.

And here I thought that the Sith handled business by killing those they were in conflict with. Y'know, kinda like shooting a spineless coward in his unshielded organs, deciding that someone is "too dangerous to live", and dumping your former friend into hot lava. (Hey, wait....)

He didn't tell Anakin, "I'm gonna whoop your ass, unless you stop acting like a Sith Lord".

Fact. He didn't tell Anakin he was going to. But he kinda did anyway. Or did you miss the part where he triple-dismembered Anakin?

The Sith are ruthless dictators. Is this an absolute? No. It is a statement based on my knowledge of the truth.

Operating off that logic, I could say that Anakin's statement was also based upon his knowledge of truth. Y'know, the one that said "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

Anyway, for the purpose of a logical point of reference that everyone can use, I'm gonna submit this little link 'cause this way, we can all argue the merits of the word using the exact same source instead of the inevitably different dictionaries we all possess in physical form. After all, you can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble-puppy. Hopefully, this will put to rest the notion that "absolute" possesses one, and only one meaning whenever used.

And heck, why not, let's also put down some of the dialogue verbatim to help clear out all the unnecessary parts of this.

"Anakin Skywalker: You turned her against me!
Obi-Wan: You have done that yourself.
Anakin Skywalker: You will not take her from me!
Obi-Wan: Your anger and your lust for power have already done that... You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do... I have peace, freedom and justice to my new Empire.
Obi-Wan: Your new Empire!
Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan: Anakin... My allegiance is to the republic, to democracy!
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, then you are my enemy.
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
Anakin Skywalker: You will try. "

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is not an absolute.

Individual interpretation. Sure, that's true if Obi-Wan was referring to Siths dealing in absolute monarchies and operating off Definition 1 of finding 1 as in "complete/total". However, he could just as easily be referring to the nature of Anakin's previous remark in that "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy" in that that remark is stated in a manner "that is not to be doubted or questioned"(Def 2, find 1), or "final/unconditional" (def 8, find 1), or "not liable to modification"(def 2, find 2). Surely, you must admit that "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy" is a statement which indicates that no matter what, it is not ever going to change. And if we go by that definition, in that statements expressed in such a way that no amount of evidence or arguing shall ever change them, then "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is an absolute in that it leaves no room for a change of opinion or even permits the existence of a differing opinion. Until anyone can conclusively prove what a *fictional* character was talking about and which definition he was using, no one has anything but interpretation.

I don't think you could handle a nice fresh inhalation of reality.

My, how... Mature of you to say that.

This post has been edited by Harmonica: 04 March 2006 - 08:23 PM

[Jejef Thgaron]

As opposed to not knowing that words have multiple meanings and trying to assert that the first one in the dictionary is the only correct usage?
So the only possible definition of absolute is "complete"? So, no other definitions are valid?

Yes. The only possible definition of absolute is complete. Total. Absolute does not mean one-sided.

My, you're being rather... absolute about that.

No. I am not being... absolute about that. I am stating a fact. Absolute means complete. Any other meaning that you make up on your own is irrelevant.

So does it mean whatever you want it to mean so that you can make a point based on one out of several definitions?

There is only one definition of the word. Just because the dictionary shows several "definitions" for the same word, they are all derived from the same definition. Complete, completely, total, totality, absolutely, positively: They are synonyms and are not different meanings.

Subjective opinion. This is different from whatever everyone else thinks they're doing... how?

Replying to somebody's post by asking for a "hit" of whatever they're smoking doesn't exactly back up any logical arguement.

What about when he immediately afterward ignites his lightsaber, has a battle to the death with Anakin, and sets him on fire?

He told Anakin he was prepared to fight to defend his own life, which is how the Jedi are trained... defensively. He didn't battle Anakin to the death, he warned Anakin that he had the high ground and he could easily defeat him. Anakin jumped at Obi-Wan trying to be heroic and Obi-Wan didn't stand there and let him attack... again, defensive. Sets him on fire? So, Obi-Wan poured gasoline on Anakin and lit a match? I don't remember Obi-Wan setting Anakin on fire. I remember the clothing Anakin was wearing spontaneously combusting because he was so close to the lava.

And here I thought that the Sith handled business by killing those they were in conflict with. Y'know, kinda like shooting a spineless coward in his unshielded organs, deciding that someone is "too dangerous to live", and dumping your former friend into hot lava. (Hey, wait....)

The Sith do kill those they are in conflict with. To reply to your statements, Grievous wasn't a coward, he was following Sidious' orders. Mace Windu was borderline Sith. Obi-Wan didn't dump anyone in hot lava.

Fact. He didn't tell Anakin he was going to. But he kinda did anyway. Or did you miss the part where he triple-dismembered Anakin?

He didn't tell Anakin that. He warned Anakin that he had the high ground, but Anakin saw things in his favor. He was an idiot for jumping at Obi-Wan like a bewildered spider monkey. No, I didn't miss the triple-dismemberment. However, it wasn't like Obi-Wan to stand there and let someone chop him up with a lightsaber.

Operating off that logic, I could say that Anakin's statement was also based upon his knowledge of truth. Y'know, the one that said "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

You could also say that the Sith were masters of betrayal. In his own opinion, the Jedi were evil because they attempted to assassinate his father figure, Palpatine, and the leader of the Republic, which is what he lived for. This isn't truth, it's the way Anakin sees things from his perspective. Mace Windu and the other higher up members of the Council didn't trust Anakin, and Anakin knew this. Can you really blame them?

Anyway, for the purpose of a logical point of reference that everyone can use, I'm gonna submit this little link 'cause this way, we can all argue the merits of the word using the exact same source instead of the inevitably different dictionaries we all possess in physical form. After all, you can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble-puppy. Hopefully, this will put to rest the notion that "absolute" possesses one, and only one meaning whenever used.

And heck, why not, let's also put down some of the dialogue verbatim to help clear out all the unnecessary parts of this.

"Anakin Skywalker: You turned her against me!
Obi-Wan: You have done that yourself.
Anakin Skywalker: You will not take her from me!
Obi-Wan: Your anger and your lust for power have already done that... You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do... I have peace, freedom and justice to my new Empire.
Obi-Wan: Your new Empire!
Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan: Anakin... My allegiance is to the republic, to democracy!
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, then you are my enemy.
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
Anakin Skywalker: You will try. "
Individual interpretation. Sure, that's true if Obi-Wan was referring to Siths dealing in absolute monarchies and operating off Definition 1 of finding 1 as in "complete/total". However, he could just as easily be referring to the nature of Anakin's previous remark in that "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy" in that that remark is stated in a manner "that is not to be doubted or questioned"(Def 2, find 1)

Stop. "That is not to be doubted or questioned" is the long way of saying "complete" as in:
The answer is complete. It is not to be doubted or questioned because it is totality.

Or "final/unconditional" (def 8, find 1),

"Final" as in "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy"
"Unconditional" as in there are no conditions it is final; complete.

Or "not liable to modification"(def 2, find 2).

"Not liable to modification" meaning it's "absolutely" Anakin's way or the highway.

Surely, you must admit that "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy" is a statement which indicates that no matter what, it is not ever going to change. And if we go by that definition, in that statements expressed in such a way that no amount of evidence or arguing shall ever change them, then "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is an absolute in that it leaves no room for a change of opinion or even permits the existence of a differing opinion.

That is precisely what I meant when I say Anakin's statement will not falter, no matter what. If we go by that definition, then "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is not an "unconditional" statement. It is a matter of Obi-Wan making a simple observation. He is not dictating to Anakin that he must change, but he knows Anakin can change. Can change, meaning Anakin is not above being "final", "unconditional", "complete", "not liable to modification", "that is not to be doubted or questioned", or any other similiar definition of the word absolute that can be found. Obi-Wan then says, "I will do what I must" and he means he will do exactly as he can do to prevent Anakin from killing him. Obi-Wan's not out to kill Anakin, Anakin's out to kill Obi-Wan.

Until anyone can conclusively prove what a *fictional* character was talking about and which definition he was using, no one has anything but interpretation.

You can interpret the word "absolute" any way you want to, but in the end, it still doesn't change in definition.

My, how... Mature of you to say that.

It may not have been very mature of me, but I don't smoke or do any mind-altering or euphoric drugs to enhance my state of mind, let alone my debate on Star Wars quotes.

Very logical post, Harmonica. Thank you for a absolutely reasonable and educated reply.

[ion eon]

OMG THAT WAS TOOOOOOO LONG *goes into meltdown*