[Zatoichi]

I don’t know about you - but I like my good guys questionable, and my bad guys EVIL. Where was the rage? The seething hatred for the Jedi I had imagined all those years ago? Where was the genocidal megalomaniac we had all come to know and love? I would much rather have seen Darth Vader embrace his dark side, rather than kinda stumble into it like a total moron.

I like the way you put it, but I wonder how it would be done to make it still seem realistic that Vader would even bother saving his son at the end of ROTJ. I may have a few ideas, but I'd be glad to hear anyone else's.


And jariten, "just wasn't on the cards"? Um, they were kind of fighting a war at the time. Now I know it was the clones vs. the droids, but in galaxy spanning warfare there is a pretty good chance of collateral damage. And that isn't saying anything about those who joined in the actuall fighting. But alright fine, I'll conceide on the point that Anakin didn't know at the time how the course of events would take place. How later on he would go on to become one of the most evil people in the galaxy. Regardless of his intentions, actions are still actions and hold a lot more weight.

And as for that essay, was it written before or after TPM? I ask that because, we have been shown that it was Palpatine who bred the corruption in the Republic, Palpatine who orchestrated events to bring about the war, Palpatine who goes on to lead the Empire, Palpatine who orders the elimination of the Jedi, Palpatine who represses the entire galaxy and is discriminatory towards all but humans, Palpatine who orders the construction of weapons that can destroy planets with a single blast, and on and on. So ask yourself, is the Empire Evil? You know, in D&D they have an alignment for that, its called Lawful Evil. The best real world example of what the Empire might have been like is a what if? What if Nazi Germany won World War Two?

Now, getting into the realm of philosophy, here is a question: Does Anakin's/Vader's humanity excuse him for the actions that he took and the events that he helped bring about?

[KurganX]

But that was the whole point. "I can't live without her". Not something a Jedi would say, but something a human being would say. You know, he loves, lives, gets angry, gets jealous. crys...
No, he knew what he wanted with the scene, at first though he wasn't sure where he was going to put it (at first it was in the "you're the sith lord!" scene. Lucas rightly felt it was too early).
As for it not being planned out, did you watch the first two? Its all set up there.
Where Obi scolded Anakin and put him down, Palps massaged his ego. Played him like a flute, but who wasnt? Amidala, the Jedi, the Seperatists, Dooku, poor old Nute...

and I can't believe that anyone would think that a couple of human guards (force pikes?! EU) could stand up against a Jedi. Yoda, in fact.

Love the poem! As to "force pikes" being EU, yes, the name is, but the design isn't. After all, we see a Gungan use a "cattle prod" that was on the end of his spear on Jar Jar in Episode I (see, even that movie has some good small details now and then). So I figure "Force Pikes" are just that. Nothing about them being able to block blaster shots, or cut you in half with a vibrating tip, just useful for keeping annoying people out of the Emperor's office and impromptu small scale riot control... like the bushy-helmeted guards at Buckingham Palace or the Pope's Swiss Guard.

That's the thing about the faulty bodyguards thing. I think it's a cliche from old action stories and comic tales to try to beef up the hero/villian by showing how awesome he is by easily dispatching the henchmen, before going at the main target. Also, it's a standby of video games. Before you fight the "boss" you fight the "mini boss" or his thugs who are just there to distract you and get in the way, mostly and build anticipation.

The thing is, all of these guys pretty much are so powerful, they don't really need bodyguards. And the bodyguards they have are useless against anyone powerful enough to be facing them anyway. I guess having bodyguards still makes some sense in a real world, other than just looks, like say if you're sleeping, or to keep normal people from bugging you, or merely as an added distraction against assasination attempts. Somebody to keep people from bugging you while you're sleeping.

[KurganX]

The Force Pikes were part of the SW cannon when ROTJ came out, in fact, T'Bone's SW Universe has a pic of a deteted scene of an Imperial Officer getting zapped by one of the Guards using the Force Pike. The way these guys went down without even a hint of resistance, makes me wonder why in the hell Palpatine would have kept them around "elite of the elite" and all. They're not clones of Jango, because we see them in TPM and before the Clone army appears, so they must have been recruited with their fighting ability in mind, moreso when Palpatine was plotting to become Emperor.

I missed that part, I'll have to check T'Bone's again, as I don't recall ever reading about any such scene, from the novel or screenplays. The EU backstory has to be retconned, because according to it, the Stormtroopers (which are NOT clones) are the group from which the "cream of the crop" are chosen to become royal guards. They have to fight each other to the death and face darth vader in combat, and that's how they "win the right" to guard the Emperor. They have an extra powerful version of stormtrooper armor under their robes, carry blasters powerful enough to penetrate the cockpit of a TIE Fighter under their robes, and dual bladed "vibro staves" (think Darth Maul's saber but with vibrating metal blades instead of laser sword ends) that can cut through metal and deflect blaster bolts. They also supposedly have low level force powers, even some Dark Side abilities that can be developed further so that one of them makes a bid to be the next Emperor, post ROTJ.

And according to the non-canon (alternate universe) "A New Hope: Infinities" they all carry literal Darth Maul saberstaves (even with dual red blades!), but they're weak enough that Han Solo can kill one with a dropped staff when he's distracted fighting a ROTJ level Luke.

Which all gets thrown out the window in the face of AOTC and ROTS. Though I'm sure fanboys can just argue "well he implemented the NEW red guards after the prequel movies behind the scenes" just like he suddenly started transferring his soul into clone bodies and using force storms, and making insane clones in a matter of weeks or months or days, etc. That works for a lot of EU inconsistencies with the prequels, just say it happened offscreen in the time between the trilogies and the records about the old stuff were lost or destroyed!

But anyway, a deleted scene wouldn't be canon if it was never filmed, unless it was still in one of those canon sources, like the official screenplay or novelisation. To me, it's enough that we've seen cattle prods on the ends of spears in TPM. I'm sure the Republic can afford the same technology.

[Darth Player]

I don't go for the EU cr*p, I know I saw it somewhere and here it is. If it was written, filmed, and established that these guys could fight, why not give them the chance/? They're the basass bodyguards even AFTER they fall down on the job 1-2-3 BEFORE when they first got the job in ROTS. I don't think their performance in the PT would have warranted still having the job during the OT's timeframe.

[KurganX]

I'll look up the scene again, but I swear that scene is just about Vader choking the Imperial officer (not killing him) in annoyance for not letting him pass in order to see the Emperor (in an early script, it's Moff Jerrerod, a very Tarkin like character, seperate from the Admiral character he later becomes in the final film whom he physically chokes to death out of rivalry).

The Guardsman in the background puts up his spear, but he isn't zapping the officer... why would he? He's on the same orders as the Officer.. ie: don't let anyone disturb Palpy.. NOT EVEN VADER. Vader releases him when he realizes that the guy is just following orders from his boss.

Does Vader mind trick the other guard into attacking the officer? I'm looking again, but I didn't get that at all from my reading of it...

Update Edit: Okay here's the quote from T'Bone's site. The "zapping" was only an INTERPRETATION by a fan of the scene. It makes less logical sense than that they are just raising their weapons to block Vader, sensing the threat as he starts to choke the officer (Jerrerod):

http://www.starwarz....ore_choking.htm

For a long time, there has been a rumor going around that at one point in RETURN OF THE JEDI, Darth Vader was to choke one of the Emperor's Royal Guards. According to some other soucres, it was actually an Imperial Officer who got the choking treatment. So the question remains: Imperial Officer or Royal Guard: Who gets choked? Here's your answer.

Originally, after the scene in RETURN OF THE JEDI where Leia meets Wicket on Endor, Darth Vader was going to be making his way to see his master, the Emperor. When he got to the turbolift, he was halted by two of the Emperor's Royal guards. In what appears to be the third draft (though I can't confirm) of the script by Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Vader uses a mind trick - in conjunction with some choking - on one of the Royal Guards. Here is an excerpt from that alleged early draft of the script:

INT DEATH STAR - CORRIDOR TO EMPEROR'S TOWER
Darth Vader walks down the corridor to the Emperor's Tower and private elevator. The Emperor's private guard steps in Vader's path.

GUARD
Halt! The Emperor does not wish
to be disturbed at the moment.

VADER
(raising his gloved hand to the two
guards and choking them with the Force)
The Emperor will see me, now!

GUARD
(repeating Vader's command)
The Emperor will see you, now.

In the book The Making of Return of the Jedi edited by John Peecher, this scene is labeled as Scene 70 and was shot on Friday, February 19, 1982. Here's the description:

Scene 70 is the corridor to the Emperor's tower and the Elevator and is three lines of dialogue long. An officer tells Vader that he cannot enter. Vader chokes him and convinces him that vader should, indeed, see the Emperor.

That matches up perfectly with the script excerpt above except that it's an officer that was filmed being choked and not the Emperor's royal guard. The scene is even three lines long, as stated. That helps confirm the authenticity of the script I've seen.

The Making of book goes on to mention the reason why this scene was eventually deleted. Here's the excerpt from page 146:

November: 1982, San Rafael. According to Howard Kazanjian, Scene 70 has now been cut from the picture, partly because of the running time and partly because it doesn't move the action along. The scenes of Vader choking people are now almost classics, but Kazanjian says that there are lots of other scenes to make up for this one.

I say you can never get enough of Vader choking people, but that's just me.

The Scene 70 described in the Making of book does match up with the novelization where Vader uses the Dark Side on an Imperial officer - not a guard, though some are present.

[Note - in some drafts of the script, the Scene 70 we're discussing is actually labeled scene #68.]

I'm assuming the officer in question is Moff Jerjerrod, but we have no real photo evidence to support this. You can see below a picture of Vader choking an officer and this is definitely not in the film, but the officer's face is not visible so we don't really know if it's Moff Jerjerrod or not. Technically, it could be any officer. It's too hard to tell.

The only piece of photo evidence I have found that relates to this scene - or rather, what I feel might be photo evidence - is the picture below from The Action Figure Archive of Jerjerrod with a Royal Guard behind him. I had originally thought that in this shot it was the Royal Guard that was doing the damage here, and it does appear that way at first. Then my friend Daniel Loos from Germany threw a theory at me. Here's what he told me:

My theory is that it is really Jerjerrod who gets choked by Vader and I think I have proof. There is a photo from The Action Figure Archive [page 48] where we see Jerjerrod (obviously in pain) in the foreground, while behind him there are two Royal Guards with their force pikes raised. In the background we can easily see a turbolift like in the Emperor's throne room. At first look it seems that Jerjerrod is getting zapped by the Royal Guards.

I think that Jerjerrod seems to be in pain because Vader starts to force-choke him. The Guards raise their weapons - not against the Moff, but against Vader! So I don't think that there was a different officer guarding the elevator, it was poor Jerjerrod who was choked.

I have to say that I agree with this theory completely. It makes perfect sense and seems very likely given the other photos we have.

Here is the passage as it reads in the novelization:

When he reached the elevator to the Emperor's tower, he found the door closed. Red-robed, heavily armed royal guards flanked the shaft, seemingly unaware of Vader's presence. Out of the shadow, an officer stepped forward, directly in Lord Vader's path, preventing his further approach.
"You may not enter," the officer said evenly.
Vader did not waste words. He raised his hands, fingers outstretched, toward the officer's throat. Ineffably, the officer began to choke. His knees started buckling, his face turned ashen.
Gasping for air, he spoke again. "It is the...Emperor's...command."
Like a spring, Vader released the man from his remote grip. The officer, breathing again, sank to the floor, trembling. He rubbed his neck gently.
"I will await his convenience," Vader said. He turned and looked out the view window.

It looks as if the novelization version (which usually follows the shooting script for the most part) was in fact the one filmed on February 19, 1982. The "Behind the Scenes" picture below, scanned from the Making of book looks like it's from this scene. You can see the turbolift and an Imperial officer standing opposite Vader as if he's preparing to walk into the shot. It looks like the walls on the right are the end of the hallway Vader comes striding down as well.

So, after reviewing all of the evidence, we can pretty much conclude (unofficially) that the Red Royal Guards were never choked on film. It was an Imperial Officer (most likely Moff Jerjerrod) who got the invisble Force choke from Vader.

Starwars.com Hyperspace: Photoreceptor - "None Shall Pass"

At Starwars.com, there's another image of Jerjerrod being choked that you might find of interest. The caption reads: "In a scene cut from Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader (off-screen) is denied access to the Emperor's throne room by Moff Jerjerrod (Michael Pennington) and a pair of Imperial Royal Guards." [click here for picture]

Pity I don't have Hyperspace and don't want to waste money on it!

This post has been edited by KurganX: 18 January 2006 - 06:06 PM

[Darth Player]

Pity I don't have Hyperspace and don't want to waste money on it!
[/quote]


Amen to that, neither do I.

My only point is that these guys have the ability and means to fight, and GL could have given the Red Royal Guard fans their due by having them at least attempt to put up a fight instead of folding like a cheap camera, even against yoda (although I think all the scenes showing Yoda fighting are lame and of the "Sonic the Hedgehog" video game variety as described before. But it seems that Lucas instead wanted to give an onscreen middle finger to the Red Guard fans, just like the Boba Fett fans got it, etc. I could understand one or two occassions where the guards are overwhelmed
1-2-3 from the onset, but from the beginning with Grievous' guards getting iced pretty quickly, and then again when Obi Wan confront them AGAIN, it just seems all too much. Personally, I'd rather see another Force choke by Vader in another Special Edition of ROTJ.At least that would be a nice addition and explaination of why the Emperor was surprised to see him as he thought he ordered Vader to remain on the command cruiser, adding tension between the two.

[KurganX]

As for the article about the Empire not being evil, could you be perhaps referring to this article by Jonathan Last in the Weekly Standard. Via the date, he should have taken TPM and AOTC into account, but apparently the guy really doesn't know much about Star Wars, and ROTS clearly drives the point home that he's dead wrong via authorial intent AND onscreen events.

He assumes that the Empire HAD to be militaristic and oppressive to stop the corruption and lawlessness in the galaxy and that the rebels were terrorists who started messing with the new golden age the Empire had brought about.

I could go through his whole article and try poking holes in it, but let's just say, even if we only take the movies into account, the Empire is clearly the source of evil in the movies. And it doesn't help to try to argue moral relativism that "evil" doesn't exist. If "history is written by the victors" then the Rebels wrote history, because, according to the movies, they won! The Prequels clearly show Palpatine's scheming that creates the entire mess in the first place, and now we know that Palpatine set up the regional governors and started building the death star BEFORE the Rebellion began (Mon Mothma and co. meeting in the deleted scenes technically isn't the rebellion, they are just loyalists who wish to oppose some of the changes in government made by Palpatine, through diplomatic means only, the "Delegation of the 2000"), which was based on weapon designs taken from the Geonosians by Dooku (who of course worked for Palpatine, since the entire war was created by the Sith).

And if evil is merely relative, then you'd HAVE to rely on an interpretation of the Expanded Universe to say that the Rebellion is evil, because of the New Republic's actions during the Vong War, some 25 years after ROTJ, which the Emperor couldn't possibly have forseen (and that would still be assuming the Empire would have dealt with it in a more morally acceptable manner which is a huge stretch). Via the movies, it's the Empire who terrorizes their citizens, not the Rebels. If anything the Rebellion helps the Empire by giving it an excuse to be evil due to this "implied threat." Of course it's pointed out in the movies that the harsh Imperial method is what incites the Rebellion in the first place.

Another point I remember, is he claims that the Empire stamped out slavery, while the Republic let it exist. We see no evidence of this in the movies. In fact, in the expanded universe we continue to hear about Twi'Lek slave girls on Tatooine, and we hear about the Empire enslaving the Wookiees. And they still own droids, so where's the big reforms? Tatooine shows absolutely no Imperial presence until the Special Edition, and even then it's very token (two troopers in Mos Eisley). According to the EU I believe it's supposed to be nominally Imperial, with a small and corrupt garrison. The Imps we see in the movie are only there on special orders to find the stolen plans that were thought to have been hidden in the escape pod. Jabba the Hutt in the Special Edition also walks around unarmed with a minimal group of bodyguards (including Fett, but still), despite the writer's claims that crimelords like Jabba were "forced into hiding" when the Empire took over.

Anyway, if he would have watched the movies and paid closer attention he'd see his argument is mostly hot air and wishful thinking.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 18 January 2006 - 06:39 PM

[Sailor Abbey]

I like the way you put it, but I wonder how it would be done to make it still seem realistic that Vader would even bother saving his son at the end of ROTJ. I may have a few ideas, but I'd be glad to hear anyone else's.

I dont see what would make it less realistic if he was evil and then at the last minute turned good - darth vader was no less evil throughout the OT and we still accepted that he pussed out - uh, i mean, had a change of heart at the last minute. Who says evil people dont have a soft spot for either thier offspring or thier significant others. Even Dr. Evil had his Mr. Bigglesworth.

"Does Anakin's/Vader's humanity excuse him for the actions that he took and the events that he helped bring about?"

No. But who cares. Be proud of your accomplishments I say!

[jariten]

And jariten, "just wasn't on the cards"? Um, they were kind of fighting a war at the time

A war which (like I said) he ended by sideing with Palps.
Again, not Anakin vs. billions, Ani vs. Jedi.

And he had no knowledge of the Death Star when he signed up, and even when he signed up he had no intention of staying as Palps Maul-esque hired muscle.

Then his wife dies, the pain and numbness set in...

you know the rest.

About that essay, I remember reading it years ago, before TPM. Of course it makes no sense now, but it was interesting reading back then.

[Zatoichi]

About that essay, I remember reading it years ago, before TPM. Of course it makes no sense now, but it was interesting reading back then.

Actually, that's what I figured when you mentioned it. I thought that I had heard of something along those lines at some time or another.

[KurganX]

So was I right? Was it Jonathan Last's article? Because I never saw it until after AOTC came out and the date shows it was released post-AOTC, unless the guy just "updated" it slightly in time for Episode II and forgot to pay attention during the movie. Still, if he saw Episode I he should have been able to put two and two together. As it is, he must have seen some biazrro version of the movie or he's just playing rhetorical games with his audience, like the guy who did the "Skywalker Paradigm" (which is a riot to read, but of course it's pure BS).

[barend]

Not useless, just useless against a Jedi.

ah... who else was dooku, sideous, etc. expecting to be attacked by?

i dare say a 14 year old puerto rican kid with a switchblade, a crazy postal worker with an uzi, or a corellian smuggler with a heart of gold, aren't exactly big concearns to a dude who shoots lightening out of his fingers...




...ultimatley, anikan should have been his body guard by that point. he didn't need to be sent to kill the nimrodians and their FOUR droids... infact i'm pretty sure that job would have been perfect for the red dudes.
He should have been standing by palpy's side.

This post has been edited by barend: 31 January 2006 - 01:23 AM