[Darth Player]

A thought crossed my mind today, one I think has been indirectly addressed but not head on, and if it was apologies. You'd think Palpatine's elaborate scheme which brought Anakin to life from the beginning through Midiclorian manipulation and engineering the plot that led to his getting picked up by a rebel Jedi and delivered to Coruscant for closer and more long term turning to the Dark Side would have Palpatine be really pissed at finding Vader burned badly and in need of new limbs. Sure, he had the suit and prosthetic devices on stand-by conveniently, but I can't give Lucas credit for thinking that Palpatine is responsibe for prolonging Vader's life from thereon in, making what he said to Anakin to win him over correct, "from a certain point of view". Maybe the loss of limbs and the burned state/dependence on the Vader suit would have made the guy permenently enraged and a benefit to the Dark Side, but I can't give Lucas that much credit either, because why didn't he try this with Maul or Dooku? In the end, all that work and planning resulted in palpatine getting a Sith apprentice that may have had pluses with the Midiclorian count, but limited with the loss of limbs and burns overall. Wearing the suit had to wear him out by the end of the day, and limited his range as he had to be near somewhere with power and spares (I know Ani's a builder, but still....) You'd think in finding Vader near death at the edge of the lava stream would make Palpatine POed to say the least.

[Laughlyn]

As a simple answer; Dependance. A powerful apprentice who can't do away with you without loosing access to the technology needed to keep him alive would be ideal for a sith, since killing your master is the traditional method of Sith advancement.

[Darth Player]

As a simple answer; Dependance. A powerful apprentice who can't do away with you without loosing access to the technology needed to keep him alive would be ideal for a sith, since killing your master is the traditional method of Sith advancement.

1) I get that implied point, but I do not believe Lucas is clever enough to come up with that himself, and the rest of the crap we see in the PT reinforces my belief upon every reviewing or reexamination.
2) if Vader is "more machine now than man" then all the technological parts that make him up have to affect his ability to utilize the Force, even if its for Dark Side/Sith purposes. Since he's more focused on a moment to moment basis to survive based on what happened to him physically, he's not the most effective henchman to utilize.
3) Since he's a cindered wreck of a soul, why would the Emperor risk allowing Vader to face this kind of fate, since logic would dictate that Vader would get mega POed upon recovery and take his rage out on the Emperor sooner than later, being duped and all. Obi Wan and Yoda didn't give sufficient reason to make Anakin hate and continue to resent them for idiotic mistakes he made and an empty path he ended up choosing for himself.
4) If from Palpatine's point of view, a physically limited Apprentice is someone you're better off having as your #2, then why did he later set a higher priority in getting Luke to take over Vader's post, with just a missing hand? Lucas says on the ROTJ commentarythat Vader isn't an ideal #2 for the Emperor because he isn't fully alive (more machine than man, again...) so Luke is more ideal in the long run. Seems when this point is considered that you can't have it both wyas. Palpatine tells Yoda during the duel about how his new apprentice is going to be more powerful than any other they both crossed paths with, seems odd he'd be boasting about this if he knew Vader was going to be cut to shreds in the not too distant future.

[jariten]

What are you trying to argue? Why did Palpatine bother with Vader at all?

The answer to that is that he needed an apprentice. Vaders just like Maul in that respect, he was supposed to be the hired muscle to do the hands on dirty work. Dookus purpose was different, and much more short lived. He just needed Dooku to be the kindly, charismatic face of the seperatist movement.

Although I don't believe in the 'Palps created Ani' theory.

Vader was damaged badly, thats why Palps immediatly starts to go after Luke when he turns up on the scene. The scene at the end of RotJ mirrors both the Dooku-Ani scene in RotS and the Ani-tuskan scene in AotC (went off topic there).

although, i'm not 100% sure what your gripe is to be honest.

[Revan-47]

Has anybody actually asked lucas if Palpatine was meant to be anakin's creator?

[Storm]

Has anybody actually asked lucas if Palpatine was meant to be anakin's creator?

I was under the distinct impression that Darth Plageous was Anakin's creator.

[jariten]

No, that was only ever implied (never even stated) by Palpatine (a known liar), when he was trying to lure Anakin.

Qui Gon has a more plausible theory, which actually plays out in the end.

[CowboyCurtis]

What theory was that? (I'm not being a prick or anything---I honest to gosh, can't remember what you're talking about. I haven't watched TPM in ages [and have no intentions of doing so any time soon]).

Can you refresh me?

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 02 January 2006 - 01:14 AM

[jariten]

OK. Qui Gon suggested that it was "possible" that Ani was conceived by the midichorians, thus explaining his high midi count, his lack of a father, and connecting him with being the 'chosen one'.

[Darth Player]

although, i'm not 100% sure what your gripe is to be honest.

Let me channel my inner Gangsta Rapper to clarify:

Yo Yo Yo, so my main man Palpatine be like manipulating these Midiclorians and shit to make himself the ultimate bad ass N-word homie, Vader, and when he gets Vader to join his posse, that MO-FO Obi Wan, what do he do? He cut off three of Vader's limbs, Yo, for real, I'm not fooling. Not so bad ass from the beginning, and my man Palps has to rely on this quadrapoligic from here on in because he promised him, Yo, but he didn't know he was going to go down like a complete chump before round one even started...."

I think its sloppy toward the end of ROTS where Vader who took down a lot of Jedi on his own (not counting Younglings) goes down like a complete chump by jumping up and losing his three remaining limbs in little or no effort as compared to what transpired moments before in the battle with Obi Wan. Palpatine "senses" that Vader is in trouble, and rushes to aid his new apprentice. When he comes across Vader's body, or what's left of it, he hardly registers emotion, and takes him back to be built half man, half machine on Coruscant, which I don't buy because it seems to indicate Palpatine sat at his desk and foresaw all the events of the PT decades before the happened and planned accordingly. I just can't give Lucas that much credit. Palpatine rants and raves about how powerful his new apprentice is to Yoda, and Vader goes down in the fine Jedi tradition of the three Jedi who went down in the Palpatine'soffice in no time flat.

[jariten]

he hardly registers emotion,

I thought that was a fairly touching master/apprentice moment. Palps never seemed to care much about his apprentices past getting what he can out of them and then throwing them away, but when he reached down and touched Anakin I did. The relief in his voice when he said "hes still alive" was much more than just "thank god i dont have to find another one!"

anyway...

and takes him back to be built half man, half machine on Coruscant, which I don't buy because it seems to indicate Palpatine sat at his desk and foresaw all the events of the PT decades before the happened and planned accordingly

why? why "decades before"?

Palpatine rants and raves about how powerful his new apprentice is to Yoda, and Vader goes down in the fine Jedi tradition of the three Jedi who went down in the Palpatine'soffice in no time flat.

You're comparing the Obi/Ani fight to that?!

...

[Despondent]

Because the midichlorians Spoke to Palpatine before Shmi was ever impregnated? Sometimes you argue that it's all quite subtle and we just have to pay attention, Jariten. Just believe me when I say the Midichlorians Spoke to Palpatine decades ago! What part about that do you need spelled out for you?

Sorry, just kinda went off. This is old stuff for many, new to me. And I'm certain many hard-liners will avoid entirely- I'm referring to the OT DVD voiceovers commentary, and the part where Lucas talks about the SW story and how what we know as the PT was really rather sketchy and needed some work.

Yes it did, and it still does. PT lovers need to understand that like the rest of humanity, OT fans loved SW movies and wanted to see more. Lucas explains (on the ep 4 commentary) that the SW backstory is about darth and obi-wan and the delivery of the twins and that he was still six hours short and would have to come up with something.
out of his ass, more like it. This bickering is pointless; the PT needs stalwart defence when scrutinized or even barely remembered.

The emperor would be pissed that the SW saga wasn't about Him. Darth P. would be similarly pissed. So would the droids. And the Fett family. The Midichlorians? They gave up caring a long time ago.

[barend]

oh christ everyone!

Darth Plagery (AKA Sifo Dias) hired the Kaminons to clone a race of ultraloyal clones modelled on physical adonis like Jenga Fett. Darth "in" Sideous (AKA Palpatine [chan. sen. emp.]) was the aprentice of Dias, and was named Darth Sideous in honour and self exhaultingness by Sifo Dias.
SD taught DS to manipulate MCs to create life itself. He had the clones made with the knowlege that 'order 66' was on the table. They all knew what it was when it came, and so did His apprentice.
Dias, was known to the Jedi counsel and therefore could not have been Palpatine. An ideal relationship that would only really work out later with rolls reversed... Jedi affiliated with counsel and his political pawn/apprentice... later flipped to political sioth lord and his jedi counsel mole.

Dias died mysteriously, and plagus was no more...

over the next few years, obiwan uncovers the facility on Kamino by following a bounty hunter after some lame attempts on padme.
Obiwan is totally played, not as bad as anakin, but still...

So obiwan finds out that Dias financed a clone army... Dias was too dead to explain his intentions, so it's all reported and in no way looks like the clones were palpys doing, because it was obiwan who found them... after which, jenga fett attacks him for no apparent reason in the parking lot, so obiwan follows fett & son to Geonosis, where HOLY CRAP WHAT A SUPRISE he discovers the droid factory and sepratist facade-man Count Dooku... after a flamboyant display of evil he pisses of to leave the jedi fighting the droids...

so the jedi are all like "dooku is the bad guy who uses a droid army... lets use the clone army financed by a jedi to kill them."

so everyone trusts the clones, and everyone trusts palpatine, no one trusts dooku who is the only person who knows whats going on outside of palpy himself...

You can argue about wheather these movies are watchable or suck or a work of genious... but IF NOT ONE OF YOU GET THE STORY, THEN IT KIND OF ROBS EVERYONE OF THE RIGHT TO ARGUE ABOUT IT!!!

that's the story.

if those who hate it would overlook its crapness for a second, and those who love it would be less hypnotized by the SFX you all might catch what little story is actually there...

it's a 90 minute story stretched over 6 hours, but it's there...

it's really begening to upset me that everyone is so unclear on this.


...palpy made annie.

[Storm]

...palpy made annie.

Uh huh. As indicated in the scene where Palpatine says,"Anakin, I created you."

[ion eon]

and that^^^kinda sounds a lil fruity, eh.