[Gerhard]

By that point, he had already inadvertantly helped to kill mace, so was pretty much fucked anyway.

I don't agree. Lucas states this in the DVD commentary, saying that he helped killed mace he had no choice but to join Palpy. May I ask why? Firstly he did not wanted to kill Windu, secondly the only witness is a sith Lord, I'm sure Yoda would believe he did not do it on purpose, anyway, it's not like he was obligated to join Palpy, he could still runway with Padme or he could kill Palpy and save the republic. Or at the very least he could ask Palpy for the power to avoid people dying before killing anyone

Anything under those options would be much more logic than the "What have I done?" to "I do whatever you want" in 2 seconds.

in my opinion it was just poorly written stuff. Even if he was already half evil in Ep. 2 his actions don't make sense, firstly he wants to save people from dying, then he wants power, than he wants to save padme, then is manipulated by Sidius, when he turns he talks about his Empire (which was never mentioned before) then he almost kills padme, which was the main reason for his turn. A big confusion on Lucas head that I did not buy.

There were a lot of things that could draw Anakin to the darkside, jealous of Obi and Padme, or manipulated against the Jedi, like Plapy killing Padme and making Anakin think it was an done by the Jedi, something more plausible, less pathetic that what was presented to us in ROTS.

I never, in Ep. 2 and 3 saw the "good man" Obi-Wan was talking about, nor did I feel any more sorry now watching ROTJ, if I take in account Episodes 1-3 I no longer see a reason for "There is still good in him" when in the PT we never seen anything good from him.

This post has been edited by Gerhard: 09 December 2005 - 07:21 AM

[jariten]

I don't agree. Lucas states this in the DVD commentary, saying that he helped killed mace he had no choice but to join Palpy. May I ask why? Firstly he did not wanted to kill Windu, secondly the only witness is a sith Lord, I'm sure Yoda would believe he did not do it on purpose, anyway, it's not like he was obligated to join Palpy, he could still runway with Padme or he could kill Palpy and save the republic. Or at the very least he could ask Palpy for the power to avoid people dying before killing anyone

my fault, I shouldve wrote that he believed that he was fucked. The problem is though that he couldnt run away anywhere, and he couldnt go to Yoda and turn Palpatine in, because doing that wouldve meant giving up Padme. Helping to finish Mace off was the cut off point for going back. after that he was "in for a penny, in for a pound" as my dad used to say. The point is that he wanted to keep Padme over everything. Palps makes it pretty clear that in order to become strong enough with the dark side, he'd have to take out the Jedi.
That wasnt the only reason though, and this ties in with Anakins "my new Empire" line that you dont like. If the Jedi werent all destroyed, there would be no end to the war. It is true that Sidious brings peace to the galaxy. The irony is that he does that by ending a war he started himself.
Notice how Anakin says "my new Empire", his only thoughts were of restoring peace and taking Padme. hed lost it by that point though, he was a cold blooded murderer. he lashes out at Padme, thinking shes betrayed him. he calls genocide restoring peace. "good is a point of view".

firstly he wants to save people from dying, then he wants power, than he wants to save padme, then is manipulated by Sidius, when he turns he talks about his Empire (which was never mentioned before) then he almost kills padme, which was the main reason for his turn. A big confusion on Lucas head that I did not buy

you write those things as if theyre seperate, when in fact theyre all connected. He wants to get powerful enough to theoretically stop people from dying after his mother dies in an act which he feels he couldve prevented. Then he dreams of Padmes death. thats how he is manipulated by Sidious. He doesnt care to be his servant, he thinks he can just get the power and run. It doesnt work like that of course, and he ends up a slave to Palpatine. He attacks Padme because hes angry. but hes always been emotional, probably why he makes a good sith.

[Gerhard]

.... He wants to get powerful enough to theoretically stop people from dying after his mother dies in an act which he feels he couldve prevented

Isn't it a bit contradictory that in order to have the power to prevent people from dying, his first act is killing people for no apparent reason other than being ordered by Palpy?

I can Agree Lucas wanted to Show a confused Anakin, but the away he put it on screen was not at all convincing!

[jariten]

Isn't it a bit contradictory that in order to have the power to prevent people from dying, his first act is killing people for no apparent reason other than being ordered by Palpy?

I can Agree Lucas wanted to Show a confused Anakin, but the away he put it on screen was not at all convincing!

It was ironic, not contradictory. The reason was "to become more powerful in the dark side" (paraphrase), which makes sense to me.

[Despondent]

It was ironic, not contradictory. (paraphrase), which makes sense to me.

Yes. The AFI/Lucas proclaimed Dastardly menacing villian of all-time contender was really some whiny teen who couldn't decide what he wanted and didn't have a leg to stand on. Like rain on your wedding day.

[Storm]

Jariten, although I think you make several good points, you must realize that you will never convince people like Barend or Despondent that anything in the prequel movies is good. I started posting on this forum before ROTS, and it was quite clear that they decided they were not going to like the movie before it came out.

I can admit that if you closely examine the prequel movies, they definitely have their faults. In fact, I only really like ROTS. What I find most interesting though is that these "bashers" consistently ignore all of the ridiculous faults that are consistently present in the OT. They claim that the PT doesn't live up to the level of the OT, but the OT really wasn't that good either.

Here's a few examples nitpicks from ESB which people just cannot defend.
1. The Falcon leaves Hoth, chased by the entire Imperial Fleet. Luke leaves Hoth and there isn't a ship in sight. It makes no sense.
2. The Falcon hiding on the back of a Star Destroyer without being noticed. How does the Falcon fly past the Avenger bridge window and attach to the back of the ship in less than 4 seconds?
3. The Falcon not noticing Boba Fett following them when they leave the garbage heap.
4. How does Luke learn how to use a lightsaber? Obi-Wan had him do one drill with a little sphere, and suddenly he's good enough to hold his own against Darth Vader?
5. How can people walk around outside on Cloud City? If I was at the top of Mt.Everest, could I casually walk around?
6. How does Luke find Bespin? If he used the force to find Cloud City, why didn't Vader use the force to find Hoth?
7. Why is Darth Vader able to absorb blaster shots?
8. How could Luke possibly survive the fall in cloud city?
9. How can the Falcon crew casually walk around inside an asteroid?
10. If Vader wanted the Falcon crew alive, why did he have TIE bombers drop explosives into the asteroid caves?
11. A great mystery: How long does it take to activate the Executor tractor beam? Evidentally 5 minutes for the operator to move his finger down to push the button.
12. Han and Leia's unexplained romance that developed between ANH and ESB.
13. Yoda, the horrible teacher. If my student fails at a task (ie.lifting the X-Wing), I'll just do it for him. Good lesson, Yoda!

I could go on and on and on, but there's no point. The fact is, I liked ROTS and others didn't. It sucks to be them.

This post has been edited by Storm: 10 December 2005 - 12:17 AM

[Despondent]

Well, I saw the OT at the cinema and that certainly did not suck.

I can understand your arguments from the point of "this doesn't seem quite right", and several of your points did highlight snags on the fabric of star wars time and space. Those brief moments of raised eyebrows existed, true. But at the time, there was simply no competition for that kind of entertainment.

And it set the standard, so high that it became a part of the cultural fabric as well. Everyone knows the characters of SW, it's become akin to the Wizard of Oz.

But if Lucas made sequels to the Wizard of Oz (let's make it easy on him: He's allowed to use the written works which exist) what he'd produce wouldn't meet the criteria of the original, no matter how little his set budget was. It wouldn't be the same because of George Lucas and what he has become. Case in Point: Vader used to be fearsome. Now he's laughable.

Peter Jackson is redoing King Kong, a movie arguably more important than the Wizard of Oz.

Fine. I'll submit to your side on this one occasion and look forward to the CGI production. Which happens to trample on various held cinematic traditions. "That's pretty ballsey, Ani."

[Zatoichi]

Storm
Jariten, although I think you make several good points, you must realize that you will never convince people like Barend or Despondent that anything in the prequel movies is good. I started posting on this forum before ROTS, and it was quite clear that they decided they were not going to like the movie before it came out.

Anything huh, nope, nobody ever bitches about the music. Nobody. Why, the musical scores kick absolute ass, period. Fight scene with Obi-wan + Qui-gon vs. Darth Maul = friggin awsome. Especially at the beginning where they take off the extra clothing = totally badass. There are a few things that actually can and are appreciated by even the most hardcore of PT bashers.

I can admit that if you closely examine the prequel movies, they definitely have their faults. In fact, I only really like ROTS. What I find most interesting though is that these "bashers" consistently ignore all of the ridiculous faults that are consistently present in the OT. They claim that the PT doesn't live up to the level of the OT, but the OT really wasn't that good either.

Last time I checked, each of the OT films were in at at least one time and probably still are the top 100 films of all time. Not really that good huh.

I'll try not to get fanboy about these nitpicks of yours when defending them.

Here's a few examples nitpicks from ESB which people just cannot defend.
1. The Falcon leaves Hoth, chased by the entire Imperial Fleet. Luke leaves Hoth and there isn't a ship in sight. It makes no sense.

A, it's a big ass sky. B, he's probobly at least trying to avoid any non-disabled imperial vessels. C, I'd wager the ion cannon disabled more than one Imperial ship. D, The Imperial fleet is probably spread out a little in order to slow down any ships that come into their area long enough for back up to arrive. E, You think they're worried about a single fighter, or any of the Rebels bigger ships that probably is much more valuable?

2. The Falcon hiding on the back of a Star Destroyer without being noticed. How does the Falcon fly past the Avenger bridge window and attach to the back of the ship in less than 4 seconds?

Good point, especially since they were coming at them at what looked to be quite fast. I'm not sure, maybe they hovered for a second or something. I'll have to watch it again sometime.

3. The Falcon not noticing Boba Fett following them when they leave the garbage heap.

Maybe Fett had a little stealth modifications to his ship. They were surrounded by plenty of big hunks of garbage at the time, and had just lost the Imperials. Maybe they just weren't on the lookout, and probably don't have rear veiw mirrors. What you should really be asking is how they Hell did he get there before they did?

4. How does Luke learn how to use a lightsaber? Obi-Wan had him do one drill with a little sphere, and suddenly he's good enough to hold his own against Darth Vader?

Well, because he didn't do jack squat with it in the time that takes place between the two films, now did he? I'll wager he got some practice in here and there. A lightsabre is basically a sword. How hard is to figure out how to use a sword at least a little bit on your own.

5. How can people walk around outside on Cloud City? If I was at the top of Mt.Everest, could I casually walk around?

At least the wind blows

6. How does Luke find Bespin? If he used the force to find Cloud City, why didn't Vader use the force to find Hoth?

I have to watch the films again, but I think Yoda said something along the lines of the Force choosing what it wanted to show you sometimes. And how are you sure Vader didn't use the Force. After seeing the picture of the generator, he says "The Rebels are there, and I'm sure Skywalker is with them." Oh, and as for Vader using Luke's buddies as bait, how do you figure he thought Luke was going to try and come to their rescue? E-mail?

7. Why is Darth Vader able to absorb blaster shots?

Guess what, his armor also partially protects him from lightsabers. Luke doesn't just slice clean through when he gets Vader on the shoulder. Maybe Vader's armor has a cortosis weave or something. If you really want to get into EU stuff (which I doubt) I could look it up in the near future.

8. How could Luke possibly survive the fall in cloud city?

Because he doesn't smack right into any hard surfaces. What you want to ask is how did he manage to make it into that hole?

9. How can the Falcon crew casually walk around inside an asteroid?

They've got moxi?

10. If Vader wanted the Falcon crew alive, why did he have TIE bombers drop explosives into the asteroid caves?

Maybe because one bomb probably wouldn't destroy the ship (or kill everybody, because I don't think he needed to capture all of them). They were just trying to flush them out of they're hiding place.

11. A great mystery: How long does it take to activate the Executor tractor beam? Evidentally 5 minutes for the operator to move his finger down to push the button.

Hmm, I've got nothing. Maybe they weren't in range. Maybe they weren't flying were the tractor beam was pointing (I thought they only had them on the underside of the Star Destroyers). Maybe it was his first day on the job.

12. Han and Leia's unexplained romance that developed between ANH and ESB.

"You think a princess and a guy like me", and to really stretch it "I knew there was more to you than money" Anyways, I thought their romance began in ESB, not somewheres in between.

13. Yoda, the horrible teacher. If my student fails at a task (ie.lifting the X-Wing), I'll just do it for him. Good lesson, Yoda!

Luke didn't even believe that it was even possible. Yoda was only giving him a one shot anyways ("Do or do not ...") How is setting a good example a bad thing? Would it have been better to have Luke keep on trying and trying to do something that he already was sure could not be done? Did you want to have the rest of the movie be Luke trying to get the X-wing out of the swamp. Don't be ridiculous. Oh, since when did you become an expert on teaching people anyways (Point is, you don't have to be, but if you manage to get your student to learn something, than I suppose you taught them something)?

I could go on and on and on, but there's no point. The fact is, I liked ROTS and others didn't. It sucks to be them.

Your right, it does suck. I can not be blissfully ignorant about it (not trying to sound mean, its just the wording).

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 10 December 2005 - 02:14 AM

[jariten]

Jariten, although I think you make several good points, you must realize that you will never convince people like Barend or Despondent that anything in the prequel movies is good.

I realised this months ago! Thats not my intention though. I just think that these films have gotten the short end of the stick in the media, and their finer points usually get stuffed by the wayside in favour of some more JJ or CGI bashing whenever a PT article pops up. Here I feel like ive got at least a few people who'll actually listen (or read) what I have to say. Even if they dont agree, thats enough. These guys keep me on my toes.

[Paladin]

Yes. The AFI/Lucas proclaimed Dastardly menacing villian of all-time contender was really some whiny teen who couldn't decide what he wanted and didn't have a leg to stand on. Like rain on your wedding day.

The fact that he's a 'whiny' teen doesn't mean anything. But the rest of the stuff you wrote is definately valid. You got yourself a totally messed up piece of work with no clear motive or explanation other than 'I want to stop my girlfriend from dying' which is so ridicules that even he ends up killing her in the end.

Of course, many people would wonder just why the heck Darth Vader turned into what he was at the age of 21 or 22 in the first place. Many people believed that he should have been a conflicted teen in the FIRST movie and turning into the menacing Darth Vader around his late thirties or fourties. The Jedi should not have been the political arm they were, but rather far more secluded and mystical than they were shown, and it would make more sense for them to be 'hunted down' by Darth Vader later on. I'll stop here as I'm not in the mood of writing more, and seriously doubt I ever will be.

I realised this months ago! Thats not my intention though. I just think that these films have gotten the short end of the stick in the media, and their finer points usually get stuffed by the wayside in favour of some more JJ or CGI bashing whenever a PT article pops up. Here I feel like ive got at least a few people who'll actually listen (or read) what I have to say. Even if they dont agree, thats enough. These guys keep me on my toes.

Jariten, I'd just like to say that I take all of your arguements seriously and to heart, as I do with many other people whom I believe are worthy to debate with, but in the event of Star Wars, I just don't care any more, which is why I didn't reply to your last post during our short discussion. I just want to move on with life and maybe see if I can find some other Sci-Fi movies to watch.

Speaking of which, maybe a visit to my local video store should come up with some interesting choices to watch this weekend. Unlike my other movie marathon, I'm not going to load up on any shitty snacks!

Guess what, his armor also partially protects him from lightsabers. Luke doesn't just slice clean through when he gets Vader on the shoulder. Maybe Vader's armor has a cortosis weave or something. If you really want to get into EU stuff (which I doubt) I could look it up in the near future.

Actually, if you watch closely, you'll see that he deflects the shots rather than absorbs them...

[barend]

It is true that Sidious brings peace to the galaxy. The irony is that he does that by ending a war he started himself.

it's not ironic, it's just wastefull and increadibly expensive. palpatines greatest power was obviously being increadibly rich...

[barend]

I realised this months ago! Thats not my intention though. I just think that these films have gotten the short end of the stick in the media, and their finer points usually get stuffed by the wayside in favour of some more JJ or CGI bashing whenever a PT article pops up. Here I feel like ive got at least a few people who'll actually listen (or read) what I have to say. Even if they dont agree, thats enough. These guys keep me on my toes.

we do listen.

and i agree, the PT got the short end of the stick, it i didn't it hand it to it.

What you generally seem to be putting forward in our ongoing arguments is that the PT is scrutinized in a fashion we do not apply to the OT. That there is a double standard going on.

in some respects i can appreciate that line of thought, as i'll be the first to admit it. but it's not as simple as that. it's not like the faults of the OT are ignore for some social sainthood, but rather as a point of insignificance.

the difference bewtween the OT and the PT cannot be judged by which trilogy has the larger piles of scientificly inplausible inaccuracies or which film takes coincidences and destiny to far...

the real problem is that the PT biggest set of flaws falls into a catigory that the OT is beyond reproach on, becasue the biggest problem with the PT is how it relates to the OT! and as unfair as it may seem to some of you, there is no way to judge the OTs relationship to it self (but note that we hassle ROTJ a fair bit).

the problem is that the OT has been floating about for over 25 years, the audience has had too much time to get to know the characters and events. To turn around and and make something that conflicts so heavily with the trilogy for which it attempts to serve as a post-introduction, is to tread on the toes of those who know better. But it's not just about that either. these new films have also been made with a very different motivation, and come accross as having been less co-operatively driven. the effort made to move characters from point A to point B has been a lot less solid.

the inconsistencies and errors in the OT are generally things that affect a few seconds of plausability. They are rarely (in comparison) things that affect the whole trilogy as they are in the PT. the OTs story fits with its covered time, where as the PT stretches a much shorter story over a much longer period of time. many of the things that justify making them are absent from the story while many things that are only their to dazzle the children are given significant screentime.

important events are brushed past, while superficial filler material is explored. Things that never required an explanation are suddenly explained and altered while major plot points are left erronious and delivered in a hurry.

i do not enter these arguments with a OT rock PT suck ethos. and i am offended that storm used my name to say this:

Jariten, although I think you make several good points, you must realize that you will never convince people like Barend or Despondent that anything in the prequel movies is good. I started posting on this forum before ROTS, and it was quite clear that they decided they were not going to like the movie before it came out.

i decided nothing before seeing ROTS. I feared it would suck! days leading up to it's release, I was exited. even after watching there was a little buzz, but it was from nothing substantial enough to leave me with anything to hold onto. especially as have constantly praised the sound FX department, and complimented the coriography, and I'm probably the only person here who said that Ewan McGregor was a good obiwan.

the only things i have attacked, have been the script, the direction, the things that conflict with the OTs coverage of the same events, the rush to post production, and a little nitpicking on the way between those points....

and i think i've been going pretty light as i have yet to mention the worst line in the trilogy...

"You know the dark side?"
the fact that i have let that little gem of linguisticallly missapropriated personification of an already over-alteredly cavernous concept slide is a testament to the fact that i do not enter these debates with guns blazing.

[Azrael23]

important events are brushed past, while superficial filler material is explored. Things that never required an explanation are suddenly explained and altered while major plot points are left erronious and delivered in a hurry.

Examples such as....


1. The Clone Wars, which could have been a film by itself. Instead we get the begining in AOTC's conclusion and the war ending in ROTS. I would have preferred a film that chronicles the Clone Wars instead of the animated shorts.

2. Anakins seduction was glossed over, and in that process made zero sense.

3. Jedi Purge another important event glossed over.

Each of these events mentioned in the OT are glossed over in the PT. These things were crucial to the story and yet GL gave top priority to that very long pod race in TPM and Padme in the Droid factory in AOTC..

[jariten]

Its good to have the boards up and running again.

1. The Clone Wars, which could have been a film by itself. Instead we get the begining in AOTC's conclusion and the war ending in ROTS. I would have preferred a film that chronicles the Clone Wars instead of the animated shorts

Lucas wrote the PT with these two things in mind- 1. how does a good person turn bad and 2. how does a democracy become a dictatorship. With that in mind, the two most important characters in the PT are Anakin and Palpatine, with every other character or event playing off them in some way. What Lucas seems to find more important is not the clone wars itself (the battles etc.) but how Palpatine sets them up.

Which basically boils down to making a country fealful enough so that they'll give up their civil liberties, their rights, anything to the leader who says that he'll keep them safe. The idea of creating a war to stay in office literally happens in the film, but its a process thats happened time and again throughout history, and i'm sure you dont need reminding of the most recent example.

Having said that though, even though AotC ends with the start of the war proper, it does last well into RotS, and dictates a lot of the action of that film. I think we definatly got enough of the 'clone wars' on screen, but absolutly my favorite part of the PT, and the thing that I think sets it apart from other summer blockbuster kids flicks, is how well Lucas took Palpatine from Ep1 to Ep3.

2. Anakins seduction was glossed over, and in that process made zero sense

Lucas took two films to cover it.

3. Jedi Purge another important event glossed over.

How was this glossed over?

yet GL gave top priority to that very long pod race in TPM

which lasted 10 mins in a 2hr 20 min film, part of a cycle of three films lasting over 6 hours.

Padme in the Droid factory in AOTC..

which lasted 5 minutes. Not quite "top priority" then.

[Despondent]

If you add all the pre-race preparation and follow up material, it's a reel at least. Wait, does Lucas use reels anymore? I suppose the length adds credence to the weight of the "plot".

Personally, I never really given a damn about the Emperor's rise. With a thousand generations of history I'd hoped to have something a little more approachable than trade negotiations. Don't get me wrong, I looked forward to TPM like anyone else. I still wonder about the red guards.

---

I suppose it's similar to trying to visit a school you once attended. Your school still exists all right, but things have changed and you can't ignore it.

This post has been edited by Despondent: 16 December 2005 - 10:17 PM