[jariten]

Paladin-
so you disliked how Anakin turned out because it didnt meet your expectations?

Anakin is "brainless"? because hes in love and cant let go, his head full of the loss of his mother? Hes too emotional, he cant forget, he can only "look back" (exactly what his mother told him not to do). Hes flawed, hes not stupid.
He doesnt want to be evil, he wants to save Padme. He "plegdes" himself to Palps teaching, all he wants is to know how to save her. Hes already plotting to overthrow Sidious (he makes the offer to Padme, later on again to his son). but before he knows it hes gone too far, hes in the suit, and Palpatines got him (I love that smirk he pulls as he sees Vaders pain).

you seem to have wandered into another argument here, I thought we were talking about the effect of Shmis death on Anakin?

This post has been edited by jariten: 05 December 2005 - 08:08 AM

[Paladin]

My expectations have been dissapointed by the whole movies, not just by Anakin's pathetic portrayment, and how it all ends up... he kills Padme, thus making whatever he needs from the dark side totally useless (even if he does learn how to 'stop people from dying' he still can't bring padme back to life). He has no reason not to think that, perhaps, Palpatine was lying to him all along? And that he was manipulating him to get what he wants and nothing else. Anakin had no lust for power, no desire for anything other than saving Padme, and in order to do this, he completely destroyes and enslaves an entire galaxy and in the end he winds up failing to do what he initially set out to do... but he decides to stick around Palpatine and perform all sorts of horrid things to innocent people with no apparent motivation.

It's all screwed up beyond recovery... and so's the plot.

Still, I will accept that this is how it all ends, I did renoucnce fanhood after all and there's not much I can do at this point. I really want to stop criticising it and move on to something more contructive, like finishing off the WOT series!

[Despondent]

These movies are made to pass on to the children. Kids are the only ones naive enough to swallow.

[barend]

Anakin is "brainless"? because hes in love and cant let go, his head full of the loss of his mother? Hes too emotional, he cant forget, he can only "look back" (exactly what his mother told him not to do). Hes flawed, hes not stupid.

he's stupid bcause he's a puppet. I've been in love, deeply in love, it didn't suddenly make me want to stick a knife in a toaster or lick a frozen pole, or take candy from a stranger...

anikan was a total rube.

He doesnt want to be evil, he wants to save Padme. He "plegdes" himself to Palps teaching, all he wants is to know how to save her. Hes already plotting to overthrow Sidious (he makes the offer to Padme, later on again to his son). but before he knows it hes gone too far, hes in the suit, and Palpatines got him (I love that smirk he pulls as he sees Vaders pain).

he doesn't want to be evil? he thinks he's saving his wife by killing heaps of children, participating in the aquisition of power by a flamboyant autocrat, chokes the woman he claims he's doing it all for, attacks the one who trained him, and says he's planning to kill the guy who promised to help him save his wife so he can have power of the galaxy...

either he's stupid, or evil, easily both, but you can't honestly say he's niether...

that boat won't float.

[jariten]

He has no reason not to think that, perhaps, Palpatine was lying to him all along?

why should he? He he thinks that he killed Padme in his anger.

Anakin had no lust for power, no desire for anything other than saving Padme

His "lust for power" centers around his desire to　keep the things he loves,　yes. I don't understand why you want to belittle that fact, or why you regard it as unimportant.

and in order to do this, he completely destroyes and enslaves an entire galaxy and in the end he winds up failing to do what he initially set out to do

But those things are after he becomes a Sith. "The good man who was your father was destroyed". Thats the whole point of Vaders character as it relates to his son,　is there still good in him?

with no apparent motivation

His motivation is to get some of his family back together. Heres a guy whos lost everything, but rekindles part of his lost humanity through his son. he makes the same offer to Luke as he did to Padme. Rewatching that scene now, i'm torn between wanting Luke to say yes and no. That scene where Luke escapes in the falcon with Vader calling him has suddenly turned into one of the most poignent in the saga.

he's stupid bcause he's a puppet. I've been in love, deeply in love, it didn't suddenly make me want to stick a knife in a toaster or lick a frozen pole, or take candy from a stranger...

But how would those things help you keep that person you loved? Your comparison makes no sense. Yes, Anakin was manipulated, but so was everyone else. Thats what Palpatine was good at, and its what made the sith powerful.

he doesn't want to be evil? he thinks he's saving his wife by killing heaps of children, participating in the aquisition of power by a flamboyant autocrat, chokes the woman he claims he's doing it all for, attacks the one who trained him, and says he's planning to kill the guy who promised to help him save his wife so he can have power of the galaxy...

Alright, so let me rephrase what I said before. Vader wasn't doing those things with 'evil' as the goal. The goal was to save Padme, and everything he does his towards that end. The trouble is that before he knows it hes too far into Palpatines clutches, and he twists the truth to justify his actions. Everything he does is motivated, but none of it by 'evil'.
When Palpatine says "good is a point of view", he was right. Although ive no doubt Palps is evil to the bone, theres a truth in what he says if the jedi are not all wiped out it will be endless civil war.
I dont know if his acts are entirely forgiven by what happens in RotJ, but I felt that guys suffering. People complained about the Frankenstein birth scene, but to me it was perfect. Its not the cool suit of armour it was when you were a kid anymore,　its a clastophobic prison.

long post, sorry...

[barend]

i've seen longer...

but the point is I DO understand what lucas is trying to say. So by the same token I already know the point your trying to make. none of it went over my head, it was just handled in such a way that so superficial and lazy.

i own't deny that the OT had a simplistic charm, but this new shit reads like a dick and jane book.

i think he takes too much liberty with how characters react to a situation.
and it's mostly because he came from the wrong angle.

this is pretty much how it would have broke down:
okay, vader needs to wipe out the jedi, but he has to be tricked into doing it so that we can still call him a good guy... hmmm... okay, he thinks it's the only way to save his wife, okay good, but how does that work? oh wait it doesn't need to... the empiorer says he'll teach him how to save his wife if he kills the jedi counsel, at which point he confesses he didn't really know, but says 'if you kill the jedi kids, i'll work on it' ...yep. that'll do.

what we needed in such an "epic" tale was to have some one 'lured' into the dark side, NOT blackmailed. especially not with an empty promised that is exposed before the largest requirement is issued.

THAT make the character look stupid AND evil...

[jariten]

what we needed in such an "epic" tale was to have some one 'lured' into the dark side, NOT blackmailed. especially not with an empty promised that is exposed before the largest requirement is issued.

THAT make the character look stupid AND evil...

I thought he was lured. lured in with the carrot of more power. power for one specific purpose. Its all Anakin talked about in Ep2. First being neutered by Obi Wan (perhaps rightly so, although Palps traps him by massaging his ego), and then losing his mother in a act which he convinces himself he could have prevented. After all that all Palpatine needs to do is nurture that greed in him slightly by giving him a juicy carrot to nibble on. Palps gave him the final push, but everything was already set up for that in Eps 1 and 2.

[Revan-47]

It wasnt only for padme, he realized once he started to grasp the dark side, that its powers were beneficial.

[barend]

plaps telling him to kill dokuu was the only bit that fell into the right slot.

the rest was too shallow and flamboyant.

ep1. 'we shall watch your progress very carefully' palpy tells child Anakin.

ep2. 1 scene where Anakin and palpy have a quick chat... 'you got power baby' palpy says, 'cheers' replies annie...

ep3. 'yeah, kill everyone' 'will do'

There friendship was so weak in principal. it made no sense. He should not have had time to ever visit palpy, let alone have spent enough time to be played like a puppet by him.
Honestly, teenage slave boy turned monk hanging out with an old man senator... 'friendship' was not on the table there.

a far better excuse was needed for those too to spend so much time together. If, for example, several attempts on palys life had been faked, and palpy made the effort to look as if he acted in favour and harmony with the Jedi counsel they would have issued Jedi to protect him. Having Grievous and Dooku 'kidnap' him so that Anakin could have one quick fight in the same room as him was insufficient.
If palpatine tricked many young unsuspecting souls into attacking him while Anakin and obiwan were protecting him, he could have undermined obi wan’s teaching and guidance with far more subtlety and Machiavellian cunning.
what we got was a stay-up-the-night-before script writing that gave us an implausible route to a pinnacle scenario.
Everyone seems to focused on the fact that what the creative force behind it all wanted to happen came to pass. No one seems to mind that a flimsy set of events was loosely thrown together to achieve that goal.

i really can't stress enough just how disappointing it is that such an easily fixed mistake could have been avoided, but wasn't because the general public are too lazy to care anymore as long as big effects are involved.

it's so poor that we, the general public, weren't considered worth it.
it would not have been so hard to find that common ground that would give both children and adults with a brain some depth and character to the lifeless script that could have appealed to everyone the way the OT did.

a Luring would have been alluring, but what we got was a straight up melvining.

[jariten]

but you're claiming that Palps was solely responsible for Anakins turn, then you're complaining when the films dont fit the bill. But like I said, Palps is just one factor. The thing responsible for Anakins fall is Anakin.

I said this a few posts ago, but all Palps does is take advantage of everything that was set up, by Anakin, in Ep2.

anyway, 24's just starting. gotta zip.

[KurganX]

A classmate of mine told me the other day that he understood why Anakin fell to the Dark Side. Hey, he was in love with Nataline Portman and his celibate priesthood thing messed with his desires!

[barend]

but you're claiming that Palps was solely responsible for Anakins turn, then you're complaining when the films dont fit the bill. But like I said, Palps is just one factor. The thing responsible for Anakins fall is Anakin.

I said this a few posts ago, but all Palps does is take advantage of everything that was set up, by Anakin, in Ep2.

That's not the argument here at all.

but Palpy had his intention from day one. Everything in the OT suggests that anikan took the easy path whenever it became available to him, that he abused his powers and liked how it rewarded him. It says he was lured to the darkside, led there if you will, but that anakin embraced the power of it.

Lucas conflicts with this a little on the ROTS DVD. he says anakin was played, and that "like all evil people, he doesn't think he's evil, he thinks he's right." which is a great angle, not the original one, and a bit of a generalisation that i don't think runs true at all... But he says that anakin is this pathetic puppet. So it is Lucas' intent for us to beleive this.

ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE EMPORER MADE ANAKIN!!!!

not sypho dias/darth plagus.

anywhoooo....

the argument i'm making is that palpatines involvement seems to require too little effort. The manipulation of powerful man is not something that should be squeeezed into a few minutes to make way for a pod go-cart race or the padme super mario challange, or monsters from blizzard copmuter games arena gladiator scene...

it's something that takes time, and the less time you spend on it the less credibility you give the duped hero. it's total character assasination, and completely backs up the opinion, by way of overwhelming evidence, that lucas cannot tell a story on his own. he doesn't understand human interaction, and has no sense of empathy. the man has no instinct or restraint, he doesn't have that little voice inside all writers heads that says; 'hey... wait a bit... does that make sense?'

instead he says; 'characters start here, characters finish here, i'll tie it together with some explosions and video game references'

as long as someone says "i have a bad feeling about this" it's all good, right?

[jariten]

the argument i'm making is that palpatines involvement seems to require too little effort. The manipulation of powerful man is not something that should be squeeezed into a few minutes to make way for a pod go-cart race or the padme super mario challange, or monsters from blizzard copmuter games arena gladiator scene...

I feel like i'm saying the same thing over and over again here, but Palpatine only really became involved with Anakin in the third film (although their friendship was set up in the second) because that is all that was required. regardless of what you think of the action scenes (not much, evidentally), the fact is that Lucas set everything up for this characters fall in Ep2, and set it up well. certainly not squeezed into a few minutes anyway.

His greed for power to protect what he loves
His feeling that Obi is holding him back when he knows that he could be more powerful
Him using his anger to get results
Dreams about a loved one dying that eventually come true
Feeling he wasnt powerful enough to protect his mother
his "I wont fail again" promise....etc.

Palps has nothing to do with that, which is right, because ultimatly Lucas is placing the blame for the mess at Anakins feet. After the set up in Ep2, all that was needed was someone to light the match and set him off. Thats where Palps came in, that was his only role. Their relationship was developed just enough for that to come off. Most of the real Anakin stuff happens in Ep2.

ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE EMPORER MADE ANAKIN!!!!

well that was left deliberatly ambiguous.

[barend]

okay, i feel that you're still not quite getting where i'm comming from here so let's appraoch this from a different angle.

put yourself in anakins shoes. personally i find it reasonably easy... thinking particular back to instances where the one i loved was in direct phisical danger. one time a huge dog, another time 20 underaged drunk soccar fans, a lunatic taxi driver. On those occasions I acted out of blind devotion but within reason (well sort of), and took each on...

i think there's a huge difference between taking on 20 guys, a charging barking snapping dog, and chasing a cab on foot down the middle of the road, to some old dude you know saying, 'hey... wanna keep your girlfriend alive? go kill a kindergarden class' followed by you doing it.

i'm sorry... the girlfriend angle was too flimsy. none of it had anything to do with the dark tasks he was assigned. HE saw her dying with Obiwan there... having choked her in front of him probably would have given him dejavoux (sp). and he left her behind alot... most obvious way to protect someone is to be around them.

and yes, i understand the implication that the movie makes, but it's bullshit.

the whole conversation in the highrise was just insane...
had it been me up there:

MACE: he's too dangerous!
PALPY: No, he's the dangerous one!
BAREND: alright, Alright! everybody stay calm... damn i hate these things... alright here's the deal. First things first... let's all step away from the window... purple stick away, and zap fingers in pockets.

if that failed and i ended up killing mace...

BAREND: well... if anything... i really shouldn't have done THAT!!!
well, i think i've been as incriminated as badly as i'm going to get... you better have my back on this one.
PALPY: Of course... you shall be my new apprentice... Rise Lord Vader.
BAREND: Vader? where'd that come from? So far i've heard Maul and Tyranous... I get vader? How about Darth Evicerator? yeah, that sound's cool...
PALPY: very well... rise Lord Evicerator.
BAREND: Now about that recipee for imortality to save my girly.
PALPY: oh yes... ah... well... sadly i never learnt that one...
BAREND: ...what?
PALPY: but together I'm sure we can figure it out.
BAREND: You fucking what?!? what's this we shit? I don't know anything about it? which means if don't got it, we got nothing!!! I just killed the head of the Jedi Order... because you said you had a way to fix my bitch!! I can't believe you pulled a burn on me! Fuck you man, the only other person i'm killing today is yo-
PALPY: *force lightening*
BAREND: aghghghghh!!!!
PALPY: Go kill the younlings...
BAREND: and that will save padme how?
PALPY: *force lightening*
BAREND: aghghghghh!!!! ....oh... man... okay, off to kill the jedi kids, back in ten.

[jariten]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say in the first half of that post, but about your dialogue...

Palps said "kill the Jedi and you'll be strong enough in the darkside". how is that betraying him? I find that to be a pretty straightforward step by step guide as to what to do next.

By that point, he had already inadvertantly helped to kill mace, so was pretty much fucked anyway. it was pretty obvious throughout 2 and 3 that the only thing on anakins agenda what not letting what happened to his mother happen to Padme. His greed for power to prevent this from happening is what drives him to do the shit he does in the last act of the film, because like Yoda says its "quicker". Anakin panics and wants that knowledge now. I dont find this flimsy at all. well, without ep2 it doesnt work, but thankfully he already made that one.