[barend]

"molten pit" not "molten planet"

that's just exessive.

1. why would you go there?
2. even if there were minerals to be mined, why would you have a conference room?

i can't stress enough the unbreathability of air surrounding a volcanic planet. this planet basically has a mantle layer as its surface...
the fumes, the compound gasses, and the fact that Lava's molten temperature (melting point alone) is 2000 degrees and emenating heat is always more intense where ever it is flowing and rocks next to the molten lava are about 500 degrees (and those facts come from a planet that has such occurances in iscolated and being berrated by winds from an otherwise cool atmostphere).

In fact when the surrounding air is not blowing the heat away from you, and you're on a planet where lava is a neglegable percentage in the factors controlling the sourrounding atmosphere, the closest you can get to lava is 10 meters.

now lets just look at that for a second. water boils and starts evaporating at 212 degrees, wood burns at 450...

Human fat burns at 250 degrees, liquids at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds.

so why would any biological organism even set foot on this planet?
THEY WOULDN'T!

I mean you can forgive some errors on the scientifically plausible front (e.g. visible lazers in space, ship manuverability in space, noise in space)

but a river that runs through a planet core and people surfing lava on a lava planet engaged in physically exhertive activity?

NO! i'ts just dumb.

[Despondent]

Why not simply have Vader get burned while dueling with Obi-wan on the Sun Planet? And it could've had rings. Have we even Seen a SW planet with rings?

Well I've not seen the deletes. Guess I'm in the minority; but my blood-pressure's probably high enough right now.

[jariten]

1. why would you go there?
2. even if there were minerals to be mined, why would you have a conference room?

1. why do castles have moats?

2. why do factories have offices?

honestly though, you can accept a city in the clouds, but not this?

[Despondent]

Bespin: Remarkable, unexplained entity which interacts with it's environment. With a cool sunset, pretty clouds and nice singing to wake us from our long trip.
Coruscant: Explained ("the whole planet's one city") and uninteresting, with or without wind.

[barend]

1. why do castles have moats?

2. why do factories have offices?

honestly though, you can accept a city in the clouds, but not this?

at least cloud city was windy. if i'm going to accept a hover car, a city in the clouds is few steps down the same road.

1. factories have offices. a room in a building that has machines downstairs in a safe environment.

cole mines don't have offices, world famous volcanos don't have offices, deep sea excavation and salvage teams don't have their offices on the ocean floor.

a lava mining zone that is a whole planet... if the nimrods trust a droid ship to controll battle droids on the surface of the planet below in combat where reaction time and reflex is a huge factor as battle provides many unpredictable parameters for AI to deal with, WHY would they think it so important to actually have an office built into rock with a surface temperature of 500 degrees? Especially on a planet where the robots' sole funtion is to colect Molten Lava in metal cups on sticks.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

re-read my post about lava. technically there shouldn't even be robots there!

2000 degrees is the point at which lava becomes molten! that means 2000 degrees is the point between unimaginably hot rock (that gold would melt on) and that that sludge that looks like its moving at 3 inches an hour. Flowing splashing lava covering a whole planet there fore with boiling hot air and other gasses and a shitload of lava underneath it that is sitting on more molten magma that just perpetuates it's heat, the temperatures would be astronomicaly high.

for it's absurdity, anikan and obiwan may as well have been swimming in it unnaffected.

2. moats? to stop attacking forces from having a solid ground to march on when attacking.

how is that comparable? are you suggesting mustafar's lavaminers office of the trade federation was placed their for saftey?
oh well of course, i mean it's not like ANYONE ELSE OWNS A SPACESHIP that could land on the LANDING BAY!!!!

how can this point not be getting through...

how can people just switch off their minds...

oh right, this is the same universe where you can breath in space, i forgot...

sorry.

This post has been edited by barend: 28 November 2005 - 11:53 PM

[Darth Player]

Lick-ass didn't even read his own preliminary notes from back in the day, if such a notebook ever existed. In the story that went on after ANH through his first SW fan club magazine, Bantha Tracks, Obi Wan and Vader duked it out until Vader lost the edge and fell into a molten pit. Believing Vader was dead, Obi Wan left, and the Emperor showed up to save Vader. That's it, nice and simple, no need to create a "Lava Planet" which defies logic to even the casual viewer.

If I were the Trade Federation wackos, I'd hide on Couruscant, because there was that run down part of it Sideous uses and Dooku/Tyranus have a meeting after he escapes Genosis. The Jedi and Republic big wigs don't know what's going on in their own backyard, let alone a far off planet.

It would have made more sense had Anakin/Vader duked it out on Tattooine (assuming Lucas didn't bastardize it by insisting Anakin/Vader was from there). He could have beat his ass near the Sarlaac, or thereabouts, and left him for dead in the sun, or have him fall into a volcano on the other side of the planet but not into the lava flow. Then Palpatine could have done his saving thing, ot one of Jabba's minions and they could have agreed to split the Empire between them, Jabba getting the underworld and the Emperor/Vader getting the above ground stuff like running the military or government.

More and more I get the feeling that a thousand monkeys sitting before typewriters at the Skywalker Ranch could have banged out a more cohesive and entertaining script than what Lucas created. And if that didn't work, all of them throwing their feces at Lucas would have been enough for me to pay $10 every other day to see two hours of the stuff at my local theatre.

[jariten]

Barend-

I know these movies are stupid. I understand that you cant float above fire and just break out in a sweat.

But i'm still adament- how can you accept Bespin and not Mustafa? Because applying the type of logic you are to these films, how does that cloud city actually work? what the hell are they mining? clouds? if you were to stand on a platform that high up, what do you think would happen?

I'm willing to let the stupidity of Bespin go, because when I watch these films I want my belief to be suspended. I accept it with open arms. I watch a SW film to forget about everything and just have some good old fashioned fun for two hours.

and yes, if you're in a place thats surrounded by lava with only one possible landing point near you, i'd say that was safer. The thing about coal mines is that planet earth is above with plenty of space for offices.

[Darth Player]

Not to answer for Barend, but Cloud City's possible levetation is based on classic sci fi stories and stuff like Lost Horizon. If you Google "Space Elevator" you may get stories of things that are considered now and may seem to be sci fi, but may soon become reality. A "Space Elevator" as envisioned would be an orbiting network of superfine metal thread that would be made in a laboratory synthasizing a spider's web strands which are considered to be the strongest thing around. Cargo in elevator like modules would move up and down from Earth to Orbit and vice versa, cutting the cost of expensive lift offs. No less an authority than Arthur C. Clarke are behind the idea, and if it seems like a far fetched idea now, Clarke had another far fetched idea after World War II, monitoring the weather using satellites, which is an everyday thing we see and have access to today.

As for the lava planet, its tough stretch based on bad writing, from the same page as the black guy dies first in action ensemble movies, or the crewman with the red shirt dies first in the original Star Trek episodes.Any towns on Earth are built well away from volcanoes, and at the slightest indication they're evacuated quite rapidly. Thise doing research near volcanoes do so in short intervals because of the danger of the heat coming off their surroundings. To build a big expensive facility in an area of great volcanic activity is counterproductive to say the least. A sign "And Now For Your Viewing Pleasure, A Lava Planet That Produces Unmentioned Riches And Is Ideal For A Final, Climactic Duel Will Appear Before You" isn't necessary because Lucas said so much in so many words with the in your face visuals that looked pretty but didn't make a lick of sense.

[jariten]

build a platform suspended above the clouds.

then stand on it.

then see what happens to you.

accepting that, but not accepting Mustafar is blatent hypocricy.

[Despondent]

Too bad there wasn't a story leaked about Vader being hurt in a quicksand pit, or we'd have been treated to an altogether different one-dimensional heavenly body. But I'm sure Quicksand planet has landing platforms too.

[Darth Player]

build a platform suspended above the clouds.

then stand on it.

then see what happens to you.

accepting that, but not accepting Mustafar is blatent hypocricy.

It isn't hypocracy because anti-gravity has been established in the SW universe, whereas what passed for the lava planet diluted the facts so much they should have called it the Sauna planet and had Obi Wan and Anakin/Vader roll around in the stuff snapping each other's rears with wet towels and that would have been less gay than what was on the screen. On Cloud City, Luke faced the constraints of being on a city in the clouds when he succumbed to falling and the wind/pressure differential sucked him out of the control room during the duel with Vader. And if i had the access to anti-gravity technology, I could build a platform, stand on it, and thrive quite nicely, thank you.

[KurganX]

why did the planet have to have a purpose? couldnt they have just hidden the separatist leader's there. who would expect to find them on a pointless planet of lava?

True enough. I guess Lucas felt he had to follow his brain bug of an entire planet with one climate!

And once he was there, he felt he had to justify its being inhabited... go figure it's Lucas logic.

"molten pit" not "molten planet"

that's just exessive.

Certainly!

1. why would you go there?

The novel explains that it is heavily fortified and defensible and in a remote location, so the ideal place to hide the leadership, and it just happens to be a place where they mine this stuff. I guess the good planets are all built up and the SW galaxy is littered with these industrial planets. I realize that this is something you had to read the novel for and not apparent in the movie, but that's the official explanation, take it or leave it! The reason the whole thing failed was because they didn't expect Vader would be sent to murder them by their own boss.

2. even if there were minerals to be mined, why would you have a conference room?

Maybe for the workers to have meetings or something? Still, I agree they do over emphasize meeting in person in the SW galaxy. After all, they have amazing holographic technology and long range space communications. Perhaps they still value meeting in person out of some sense of sentimentality. I can understand the workers having a break room to get out of crappy environment from time to time.

i can't stress enough the unbreathability of air surrounding a volcanic planet. this planet basically has a mantle layer as its surface...
the fumes, the compound gasses, and the fact that Lava's molten temperature (melting point alone) is 2000 degrees and emenating heat is always more intense where ever it is flowing and rocks next to the molten lava are about 500 degrees (and those facts come from a planet that has such occurances in iscolated and being berrated by winds from an otherwise cool atmostphere).

I agree. Which is why they have the shields, and which is why the people out there have protective suits and equipment... plus they use droids for the more dangerous tasks. The Jedi get to go out there in nothing but their tunics thanks to the Force, I guess. I wouldn't expect the Seperatists to be strolling around in the lava though, they'd probably just stay indoors. They were in hiding, so it would probably be akin to having a bunker in the middle of the desert.

In fact when the surrounding air is not blowing the heat away from you, and you're on a planet where lava is a neglegable percentage in the factors controlling the sourrounding atmosphere, the closest you can get to lava is 10 meters.

now lets just look at that for a second. water boils and starts evaporating at 212 degrees, wood burns at 450...

Human fat burns at 250 degrees, liquids at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds.

so why would any biological organism even set foot on this planet?
THEY WOULDN'T!

Protective suites. But yes, like the meeting in person, why not just send robots to do the work? It's totally contrived because Lucas wanted a Lava Planet! Even he admitted it was hard to come up with explanations for it all. Anyway... yeah, pretty much.

I mean you can forgive some errors on the scientifically plausible front (e.g. visible lazers in space, ship manuverability in space, noise in space)

but a river that runs through a planet core and people surfing lava on a lava planet engaged in physically exhertive activity?

NO! i'ts just dumb.

Or traveling from one star system to another with a non-working FTL drive or solar sail, or a planet that's one giant city and set somehow still fully populated, or crewing a moon sized battle station with human beings that are expected to manuver around in elevators and on foot... or a "galactic army" of only a couple million soldiers (fighting an army of droids many times larger and produced in a small fraction of the time!)... or a Space Slug that lives in an asteroid and has artificial gravity and atmosphere and flying animals living inside its gut... or humans and aliens that look very close to humans evolving all over the galaxy... or Han Solo's butchering of physics in conversation.

[Despondent]

Why didn't we see a hollow planet? That would have been a great place to hide.

Accept it: Lucas got lazy. "In my Universe, every planet is void of variation (except the stoopid planet which should have been called Alderaan.)

Maybe the hollow planet follows logic that if it's hollow there is nothing there so it doesn't exist and that's where he came up with the missing planet, el Camino.
Too bad "waterworld" was alderry taken.

[Zatoichi]

Really quick for Bespin.

Has anyone ever seen the Jetson? Maybe that is where they got the idea from. I was able to accept the Jetsons as well as Bespin you know. BTW they harvest special gases produced by the planet. As for standing on an open platform, when did that happen? I thought every one was inside for the most part. I'm quite sure somebody might have invented some kind of climbing equipment. Especially since they already have interstellar travel. Hmmm, as for Mustafar, why not just have a single volcano, or a group of them, and a facility that uses the geothermal energy. Doesn't that seem so much more plausible to any of you? Why they were at this place could be left up to better writing.

[KurganX]

Yeah I guess Utapau is a pretty boring/lame planet. It's just like any other planet except they live in sinkholes! Booring. The name was taken from early scripts, but it was of course nothing like we see it now (I forget if it was an alternate name for Alderaan or what... because Alderaan was then the name given to the Imperial capital).

In a society as technologically advanced as this, they live in exposed holes and keep giant sqwaking Iguanas as mounts, while getting decorative with giant bones of some unseen large animals. Intersting, but somewhat ludicrous.

As for the gas planets, well those exist in real life. Volcanic planets as well, or at least really hot ones in early stages of development. A frozen planet sure, but a desert planet? A complete desert? And one that you can make a living off of with moisture vaporators? They don't even wear stillsuites like in Dune (okay, maybe the Sandpeople do, though in the EU they only wear that stuff because "exposed skin is taboo" or some crap) to retain moisture and stay alive in the harsh climate.

A forest planet wouldn't work. One theory is that the moon is an artificially constructed game perserve of sorts, like a cosmic zoo. Coruscant, completely illogical. Alderaan could work, but it's just another earth-like planet with some cities we see only briefly.

It's a trick to make a new planet and make it interesting without making it too silly. We could have just set everything on one planet and just visited different temperate zones on it and different cities and cultures and had all the variety we wanted, but Lucas wanted to take us all over the galaxy, and if he made all the planets the same we'd start comparing it to Star Trek with its notorious recycling of sets.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 29 November 2005 - 02:04 PM