[Icey]

No they didn't, the Koran is a mix of the Old and New Testament, plus a cultural influence of the surroundings at the time. Stop talking while you're ahead Ion Eon.

I haven't read the Koran, but I've read about it and I know some bits out of it, so, no. It's not plausible that Muhammed just took the new testamen and changed a few names. According to your arguement, the god of the Jews is different from the god of Jesus the Jew and Christians?

[J m HofMarN]

So then if Islam is basically the Old testament than why is it that you think they're worshipping a different God? You believe that because they speak a different language that they must be heathens? You don't want to share God's love with people of a different race? God created everyone (allegedly) including Muslims, so why is are you so sure that they don't worship him? I believe that it was the apostle Peter who said that when he was among the Jews he went as a Jew, when he was among Romans he went as a Roman, etc etc. So why do you not believe that Islam is just God going among Arabs as an Arab?

And answer the question of why two of God's angels went to deliver the Quran to Muhammad? Do you think they were maybe interning with a false god, or something?

[Otal Nimrodi]

Having looked over my original angry post, and the edited version, it entertains much more having been de-flamed. And that was the point, after all.

[barend]

Secondly, how would you feel if I said Jesus was just some schmuck who knew some magic tricks to dupe a stupid populous and is responsible for religious oppression and has contributed to the development of an institution that seeks to reduce progress in the realms of human rights and science to a crawl where it doesn't retard it? I'm sure you'd be more than a little upset with me. Now translate how you'd feel if I insulted your messiah and imagine that same feeling in someone to whom you've just said that Muhammed was a drunkard to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

alright...

firstly, christians DO have to put with people saying that to them ALL the time.

christians are quite often jerks who think they're the only ones going to heaven, but most of the ones i know are nice people who are pretty excepting of everyone else... sure they may have an opinion, but everyone does...
budhists also have a nice ethos on the all are created equal front with a slight variation...

equality doesn't seem to be a strong point of the islamic faith, and calling everyone who wasn't born in their part of the world an Infadel is MORE than a little insulting.

at this point in time i find myself labled by every religion as either some form of sinner, traitor, face of evil or whatever, even evolutionists question my intelligence for noting 'theory is NOT fact'

overall, i'm bored with all... and if someone is going to insult a religion they've had little posative exposure to i think that's fair enough...

i'm sure islam will get along fine without ion eon's approval, and i'm sure he'll be fine without theirs...

Thirdly: Maybe you're all worshiping the same thing, and he's called something different due to language differences?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that IS actually the case.

that's what makes religious wars so bloody stupid...

the episode of Red Dwarf (season one): 'Waiting for God' covered this to a tea...

[Spoon Poetic]

If you think about it, Christians get "persecuted" a lot, too. I mean, it's the Christian deities get used as profanity all the time. When was the last time you heard someone smash their foot on a rock and exclaim, "Holy Mother of Krishna!"

These links have a heavy Christian bias, but it explains a few reasons from the Christian perspective why God and Allah aren't the same entity:

http://www.everystud...connecting.html
http://www.gospelway...roups/islam.htm
http://www.bluelette...aq/nbi/301.html

Because the Koran and the teachings of Mohammed contradict the Bible and the teachings of Christianity, it follows (to many) that the gods are not the same.

I'd say that given the nature of Christianity, if God and Allah did "turn out to be" one and the same, that would make Christianity completely crumble (as it's partially built on the belief that YHWH is the one and only God), and it just wouldn't matter anymore! :-D

P.S. The Koran definitely does have passages of intolerance towards Christians/non-Muslims. Try "a disgraceful chastisement" (4.102) and "the fire of hell" (9.6) for "unbelievers," do not "take the unbelievers for friends" (3.28), "fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness" (9.123), "kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out. . . . Such is the recompense of the unbelievers" (2.191), "We have prepared for the unbeliever, whips and chains and blazing fires!" Koran 76:4.

Of course, the same could be said about the Old Testament... Luckily for a lot of people, few choose to follow the laws of the Old Testament very closely. I sure would have hated to have been killed every time I cursed at my parents...

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 02 November 2005 - 11:22 PM

[Jordan]

So then if Islam is basically the Old testament than why is it that you think they're worshipping a different God?

ROFL, Islam is not the old testament. Infact many muslims claim the documents are tampered with. They don't think the OT in the Christian bible speaks the truth.

THey get all their words from the Coran. And that's about it.

Yes, the Coran does have violent words about non-believers

But liberals refuse to believe that any culture is bad or religion etc...

I laugh how the same people that attack the bible are also the same people that defend the Koran. "it does not preach violence". Ya right. Read the New Testament in the bible and then read the KOran and tell me which one calls for wars.

The old testament laws and practices are not applicable to Christians. That is why we are chirstians, we don't follow the OT, but the NT.

THose were good sites, Spoon.

All began from the work of major individual prophets. Jews' beliefs were revealed by Moses, Christians' by Jesus, and Muslims' by Mohammed. Islam recognizes both Moses and Jesus as prophets (along with other Bible prophets), but it claims that Mohammed is the last of the prophets and his revelation supercedes those of Moses and Jesus.

THis is why Islam is a crock of shit. Christ claimed to be GOd, how could Mohammed pull rank on Christ if he was God? How can Islam even recognize him as a minor profit if he was a liar?

Mohammed taught there is only one Divine Being in God. He denied the Deity of Jesus, saying He was just a man - a great prophet, but not the Divine Son of God.

ROFL, ya great profit, walking around claiming to be God. What a load.

To believe that Jesus was just a great man and a prophet is to belittle Him and to deny His own statements. To believe some other man was as great as Jesus is to blaspheme Him. If Jesus spoke the truth, then He was more than a prophet.

Muslims must either admit that Jesus was the Divine Son of God, or else they must admit they do not believe that Jesus and the Bible are true.

Got those quotes from the first link spoon posted.

John 1:3 - All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. [Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:16,17]

John 5:22,23 - The Father has committed all judgment to the Son.

2 Corinthians 5:10 - Jesus will be our judge; we must all appear before Him. Jesus will be Mohammed's judge! How can Mohammed be as great? [Acts 17:31; Matt. 25:31ff]

What mere human prophet could create the universe or judge all mankind? Mohammed makes no such claims. These are the claims of a Divine Being. How can Muslims deny these teachings and yet claim to believe the Bible is true and Jesus was a prophet?

This post has been edited by Jordan: 03 November 2005 - 12:11 AM

[Spoon Poetic]

THis is why Islam is a crock of shit. Christ claimed to be GOd, how could Mohammed pull rank on Christ if he was God? How can Islam even recognize him as a minor profit if he was a liar?...  ROFL, ya great profit, walking around claiming to be God. What a load.

Jesus claimed to be God... What a load?

And just because Mohammed/the Koran contradicts the Bible/Jesus, that doesn't automatically mean the Bible/Jesus is right. There is no logic in that. That's like saying, because Jordan and JM contradict each other, but JM came first, Jordan is a liar.

I was just throwing in some perspective with shit to back it up, as well as explain to non-Christians why Allah and God are not the same to a Christian, as opposed to some people throwing insults around without giving anything but personal belief to back it up.

I think some of you would have some fun with this site... *Hopes I don't come to regret this* Note: Whoever wrote this site has some of it wrong - he's pulling out individual verses in some areas where it has to be taken on context with the surrounding verses, the story in general, the culture at the time, and you have to take into account various translations, and you have to note when Jesus was being sarcastic, etc. Still a fun site.

http://www.evilbible.com/

[civilian_number_two]

I agree with Spoon: the Bible needs to be taken in the context that it was written long ago by primates. Therefore, it is not to be taken seriously as the word of God. In fact, I also agree with Jordan that most of it should be ignored and thrown out altogether if you're going to use it as a book of practical worship.

So: most of it is embarrassing crap that can be shrugged away, the rest is the Divinely-Inspired Word of God, and it shall not be doubted!

[Slade]

I am a proud follower of Landover baptist.

[Renegade]

Tbh, despite Christianity's pitfalls, because of its blatent ambigouty i'd say despite it being centuries older than the Quran, its actually a much more modern text than the Quran. The Quran is so much more specific in terms of laws that it really makes itself outdated in terms of the modern era while the ambigouty of christianity allows it to atleast partially be altered as time goes on. Eitherway, both are ubber faulty, the only good thing is the West has gone away from religion while the Mid East has unfortunetly gone backwards.

[Renegade]

Irrelevent. The mideast cannot decide in what direction their governments go because many of them are US backed dictatorships.

How is it irrelevent? Whether you ARE or ARENT supported by the US has shown little difference in whether you are going backwards. I don't care if your pro or against US, I care about those countries being successful and the bottom line is their not and a primary reason is because of the stupidity of their religious states.

Any kind of government from dictatorship to democracy to fascism can be islamic or socialist and pointing out that the governments are based upon Islamic law is once again redundant. I suppose you would have them based on Christian law?

The point is that you were acting like you didn't know what a state run govt meant as shown by your statements so either you looked it up while you were gone or just decided to take what I said serious. The end of the day, most Mid East countries are based on a lot of control by the state on economic matters and extreme religious states. And no, why do you put words in my mouth. I don't want them to be CHRISTIAN states, i want them to be secular ones that are beholdent to their people and not some stupid flaming religion or stupid flaming cause (israel) that doesn't effect them.

As for the Iran question remember that it was the US who built up Iran while the Shah was in power and bolstered his rule. Without US backing of Iran and building up of its military before the revolution it is possible Iraq would have won.

Umm... ok..? So now Iraq and Saddam were screwed out of winning the war because of a power grab that happened 27 years before he even invaded? So many fallicies in this assertion. First off, your claim was originally that Iraq invading Iran was a move that they should of won in 1980, which wasn't, because at that time they had no shoot to win. I merely pointed this out and you had to go back 27 years in the past to say OH WELL SADDAM WOULD OF WON IF THAT DIDNT HAPPEN. The point is he invaded a country in 1980 knowing what they had. Also, while the Shah did get support from America, he was hardly a single american buyer. The Shah, unlike the Islamic Regime was smart and bought everything from different places. He bought weapons from the US, Russia, Great Britain etc. He wasn't just a puppet, he was just a nationalistic leader who happened to not be anti US (he certaintly wasn't anti USSR either though). Also, Saddam invaded Iran not because he had some quest to unite arabs (persians aren't even arabs NEWAY), he simply invaded because he saw the iran MAY be weak cause of the revolution and that meant he had a chance to beat em while they were down.

Saddam is a better choice than the governments of Egypt or Saudi Arabia because he was an Arab and not beholden to imperialism

Well the leaders of Egypt and Saudia Arabia are also Arab they just happened to be pro US heh. Saddam had a chance to be a great leader till he squandered his country into economic downfall once he invaded Iran. Unfortunetly his greed for power lead his country downwards instead of actually making progress like he was when he initially gained power.

The South Vietnamese wanted to be united with their brothers, that is why the right side won the Vietnam war.

The S Vietnamese never wanted to be communist.. they may not have wanted to FIGHT communism like America wanted em too,but they certaintly didn't want to be under communist rule either.

And yes, Hizballah may be funded and aided by another Arab country, but at least they are Arabs and not Zionists or Imperialists.

My claim about Hezbollah is simply that its an organization that believes in spreading its own values onto other countries just like any other imperialist power or idea. Now you may consider this a better imperialistic idea than America's, but it non the less is a group built on getting its own agenda outside of areas it directly has anything to do with.

The intent of the Zionists is to steal as much as they can from Arabs, or "Infidels" as they surely call them. And all the countries you named may not be in direct overt danger from the Zionists, but they are clearly in danger from the imperialists. Look at what happened in Iraq, where a few treacherous cowards sold out the country and spread false information to justify an invasion of their own homeland by a foreign power.

Not really.. the intent of Zionism is to create a homeland in Israel and sit their. Their intent isn't some widespread Zionist empire in the Arab world nor is that even logically attainable. Every war they have foughten since its formation has virtually been defending what they got from the UN (fairly or unfairly) but its hardly been them attacking other sovereign arab states in order to take them over. Common sensically, anyone knows that Israel ACTUALLY doesn't have any intent to go into Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Syria, Jordan etc etc etc.

And Saddam got in trouble because of his own fault. He was sitting pretty even after invading Iran but he had to go and invade Kuwait too. Sucks for him, don't go invading countries and expect not to get owned yourself by another foreign power. Btw, no his intention in invading Kuwait wasn't because of some arab empire, it was because Iraq owed Kuwait money from the iran-iraq war and Kuwait refused to wipe the debt clean. Also, Iraq wanted to drive oil prices up because of its economic short comings but Kuwait also refused to stop supplying the West. So basically, Saddam went to war with another sovereign nation for the same reasons you'd say we do- economic benefit. Only difference is, he isn't capable of doing it and we are.

So then you are against the blockade, the invasion, the assassination attempts, the blowing up of the Cuban olympic fencing team, and other crimes organized by the imperislists? Then we are in agreement on that, and I'll certainly let it rest.

Well, i personally don't like the blockade but I don't think it violates any real international law as i've stated. Having said that, its a stupid policy specially in the 21st century that someone should get the balls to get rid of. As for the assasination attempts ya they were wrong. The olympic stuff I dunno about but neway. Point is, Cuba can do whatever it wants specially now that the USSR is gone.

[J m HofMarN]

2 Corinthians 5:10 - Jesus will be our judge; we must all appear before Him. Jesus will be Mohammed's judge! How can Mohammed be as great? [Acts 17:31; Matt. 25:31ff]

Muhammad didn't EXIST until 600 years AFTER Jesus and the apostles died. There's no way that can be right. I think I agree with the Muslims when I say that the bible has been fucked with,

And I don't think that those quotes from the Quran are in context. Ubelievers could have been mistranslated and mean a great many things, and it could also be relating to unbelievers who make war on Islam. The other thing is that Christians are more or less to be considered believers since they hold dear many of Islam's prophets.

[Spoon Poetic]

(((The stuff about Mohammed isn't actually in the Bible... They're taking a verse and applying it to the topic, being Mohammed/Islam. I don't think they even put the verses in there at all.)))

[civilian_number_two]

Exodus 21:28: "If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten."

I think we're all guilty of breaking that one, so come on, first stones, right?

[Jordan]

Some of the mosaic law is pretty wierd. Like if you touch a women while she is bleeding, you have to leave camp for a week or something.

I think they had really stringent codes for being clean.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 07 November 2005 - 04:17 AM