[Otal Nimrodi]

Honestly, that guy is my favorite reviewer. And I was so glad to find a review that was actually reviewing the movie. Most of the ones I have found pretty much only review the previous ones.

[dougte]

"...Obi-Wan Kenobi (Ewan McGregor) and his star pupil, Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen), are, with the other Jedi knights, defending the Republic against the encroachments of the Sith and their allies—millions of dumb droids..."

I've been wondering about this for awhile. I think this is a good point. What's up with the dumb droids? Why do they say the corniest things? My brother called me up and asked during a conversation, "Why the idiot droids, and why do they all speak English?"

[barend]

Hey, barend, thanks for actually addressing my points in an intelligent way. I appreciate that someone is reading what I write and at least considering it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it wouldn't be much of a conversation if i didn't, but you're welcome

I don't mind people applauding the Star Wars logo at all, and I think it's quite a bit different than clapping for a McDonald's logo. George Lucas brought us the Star Wars trilogy, a series of movies that has had a powerful effect on many of us here. You're perfectly within your rights to dislike his current work in the same series, but there are people who would like to give him respect for his efforts that revolutionized film making and created a story that has inspired an entire generation; there are those who like to acknowledge Star Wars itself as a powerful force for creativity and imagination. I would never look down on anyone for applauding Star Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the McDonalds remark was just me being mean. (which i am)

The OT deserves alot of 'influencial' credit. but it seems clearer now, with the PTs and SEs, that most of what made it great was the work of other people. mostly because Lucas hadn't become the general in charge of a thousand butt kissing 'yes-men.'

Lucas is greedy for the credit of which he has been given more than enough of.

team work made the OT great. and lucas doesn't know the meaning of the word.
people worship the SW logo because their childhood was wonderfully shaped by it.
but blind devotion to someone who goes mad, becomes consumed with greed and laziness, or just plain turns bad, is not someone to follow despite whatever they may have done for you.

and even if you like the PT, you have to know that even these films probably are not safe from later changes... clapping at the SW logo is like staying with a cheating wife. some can handle it, but in my eyes it lacks dignity and self respect no matter what side of the fence you sit on.

Your point (which was originally Despondent's point, thank you also) about CGI inherently looking sterile and "clean" is well-taken. But as you said, there were efforts taken in the re-release of the OT to *try* at least to make its CGI look "dirty." There was no attempt to make it look dirty in the PT, and I think this is partially because Lucas recognized he was supposed to be creating a cleaner more "regal" world in the PT.

Alot of people have said that CGI simply looks "fake" and therefore is not as good as puppets. This seems to be true. However, it has always been the nature of Star Wars (and Lucas) to make movies that push the limits of technology as far as they can possibly go. It's not really fair to criticize Lucas for using the very latest in special effects to create things that no one has done before (like all-digital characters, for example). Even if we look back and deem these new computer graphics to be sub-par, I think we have to ackowledge that there was a real attempt to produce something good and not a desire to create a "puritan dream."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the sterile look being intentional, is a notion that still sits badly.

the OT had a slight lean towards the distopian in it's set's appearances with everthing being dirty run down and only barely functioning.

the problem here, is that if lucas had just made (or even used CGI) to make the exact same technological style apparent in the structures and ships it would be justified. the tachnology of the OT would be justified because it would be reflecting a retardation in progress when the empire took over, and the technology of 2 decades ago was still sitting around gathering dust, which is exactly what the OT looks like. however lucas not only had that he took it too far by showing completely different designs (that were of course all clean and shiny). THis would mean that technology from the PT was, in the suggested timeline, abandoned and mysteriously recalled without trace and new technology styles were implemented and grew old fast... but were kept.

you see what i'm saying?

he has undermined the the distopian appearance of the OT by more or less suggesting that everything in it was actually not that old.

further more there is a masive difference in most of the design styles between the two trilogies that suggest many phases passed before the ones of the OT were put in place.

it's lik all the old buildings you see in your city that have been sitting there since the 30s and 40s, once shining pinacles of tachnology and engineering, now dusty museums of ideas in design.

that was the look the OT had in many areas, and now we're shown that there was new stuff showing up all the time up untill the empire took over. then 20 years later, all traces of those things and anything from 15 years before disappeared instead of aging, and something already old replaced them...

[Despondent]

Maybe they'll add a dusty old Queen's ship to the ESB's closing, rag-tag fleet.

Be as mean as you want. 's For the greater good.

[yourUsername]

Well good, let's argue rationale rather than the piss poor cry baby effort of your
previous posts. Let the rational discussion begin...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I said, a lost cause. But at least keep trying to hide your hatred in fancy words, and you may end up passing for rational.

[DarthTherion]

and even if you like the PT, you have to know that even these films probably are not safe from later changes... clapping at the SW logo is like staying with a cheating wife. some can handle it, but in my eyes it lacks dignity and self respect no matter what side of the fence you sit on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

In all seriousness, "Star Wars" itself is, for me anyway, more of a feeling than a series of films. It's a state of mind, a galaxy far, far away where the human will triumphs over the machine. Who cares about the new movies? I'd still be happy to clap for Star Wars.

On an interesting side note, I did *not* applaud at the Star Wars logo at the beginning of revenge of the sith. I felt no need to express myself -- and make a spectacle of myself -- in that way. There's no personal stake in this for me. What I'm arguing against is the idea of looking down one's nose at people who do that sort of thing...it's just silly to adopt a holier-than-thou air because other people can look past the sub-par nature of the new movies or even -- gasp! -- enjoy the new films despite the flaws.

you see what i'm saying?

he has undermined the the distopian appearance of the OT by more or less suggesting that everything in it was actually not that old.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I do see your point, and I perfectly understand why you feel this harms the original trilogy so much. I think the difference in our opinions is simply that I tend to interpret the movies more symbolically, whereas you barend (and most of the people who consider themselves "bashers"...ha) tend to look more literally. You want to see all the visuals match up between the trilogies, along with the teeny plot points, etc. To me, those things are pretty minor.

I like the idea that the PT is *supposed* to look cleaner. Lucas probably did not have that in the forefront of his mind -- he had his usual goal there...push special effects as far as they can go. I can't fault him for doing something that is the tradition of Star Wars. I certainly wouldn't accuse him of trying to drain all humanity away from his movies.

However, there is a certain irony that a trilogy in which the theme is "machinery triumphing over humanity," employs special effects that seem lifeless and sterile. That is a delightful irony, isn't it?

[WalkingCarpet]

I don't, and never have, applauded the logo, but I still get a buzz when those yellow letters hit the screen and the music starts, even on the prequels. And it was great seeing that on the big screen again, for those few seconds I could forget all the tripe of the prequels, right up until I started reading - "War!.....".

[dougte]

Like I said, a lost cause.  But at least keep trying to hide your hatred in fancy words, and you may end up passing for rational.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"yourUsername," how about this: Why don't you go through the New Yorker review and go point-for-point why the author is wrong? You don't need to use elevated language either. Instead of saying "he's just mad Lucas can buy him in two seconds," why don't you confront his arguments head-on and refute them?

[Despondent]

He's just mad because Lucas can wow him in two seconds.

"War!"

[showmethemoney]

"...Obi-Wan Kenobi (Ewan McGregor) and his star pupil, Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen), are, with the other Jedi knights, defending the Republic against the encroachments of the Sith and their allies—millions of dumb droids..."

    I've been wondering about this for awhile. I think this is a good point. What's up with the dumb droids? Why do they say the corniest things? My brother called me up and asked during a conversation, "Why the idiot droids, and why do they all speak English?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And why do they speak at all? there is not wireless comunication between them?
(And I surely wish that coud have been some kind of telepatic skills betwen anakin and padme so we don't have to hear all that crap!)
And what do the droids want? they seems to have, despite the stupidness, certain free will to act. Hey! Let put that prune-face Palpatine to rule the galaxy, he can recharge our batteries with his bare hands!
I allways thougth an endless army of droids would be pretty hard to beat (remember Terminator) untill this films. Now i know there is nothing to fear about the future but bad droid jokes.

[dougte]

I always thought an endless army of  droids would be pretty hard to beat (remember Terminator) untill this films. Now i know there is nothing to fear about the future but bad droid jokes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[barend]

Well good, let's argue rationale rather than the piss poor cry baby effort of your
previous posts. Let the rational discussion begin...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I said, a lost cause. But at least keep trying to hide your hatred in fancy words, and you may end up passing for rational.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what fancy words?

Fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

In all seriousness, "Star Wars" itself is, for me anyway, more of a feeling than a series of films. It's a state of mind, a galaxy far, far away where the human will triumphs over the machine. Who cares about the new movies? I'd still be happy to clap for Star Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it used to be that way for me, but much of what was once great has been painted over, and these prequels are far too superficial to be considered seriously for their symbolistic content.

you can say my standards are too high, but they are not. they are only as high as lucas himself placed them when the originals were made.

but clapping at the begenning of a film is like thanking people for kncoking on your door... they could be there to kill you or worse, sell you crap!!! wait till the message is delivered before applause i say...

that's the tradition... and it's a good one. clapping at the begenning of film is the most symbolic thing related to these films. it shows an offering of unconditional acceptance and admiration. you wouldn't write a review for film you had yet to see would you? so why would you applaud one? George Lucas is not your seven year old daughter playing maid marion in a school production of robin hood!! you don't have love everything he does just because it's him. ALL people are subject to mistakes and he has made them, but hardly anyone seems to be speaking up about it, or looking with objective enough eyes to even notice!

On an interesting side note, I did *not* applaud at the Star Wars logo at the beginning of revenge of the sith. I felt no need to express myself -- and make a spectacle of myself -- in that way. There's no personal stake in this for me. What I'm arguing against is the idea of looking down one's nose at people who do that sort of thing...it's just silly to adopt a holier-than-thou air because other people can look past the sub-par nature of the new movies or even -- gasp! -- enjoy the new films despite the flaws.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm the first person to tell people to chill out when watching a film that was only intended to be a bit of fun...

i'm sick of seeing popcorn films and having friends artistically critque them. It's like discusing the nutritional value of a 7-11 slurpy. it's yummy and cold... just enjoy the damn thing!!!

but the fact of the matter is these films are being presented and watched with more suggested prestige then they really deserve. there were only a few things to take into consideration when making these prequels, and if they had been followed, lucas could have gotten away with anything and i would have taken my hat off to him, but he didn't do that...

these films may as well have had nothing to do with the original story... as sitting down and taking notes from the OT was apparently too much for him... making things match and flow with a smooth transition...

instead we get random story tied by names of central characters, and cameos of background characters in childhhod form.

showing the deathstar and tantive4 was not neccesary... showing anikan and obiwan exchange a real and believable friendship that parralleled the sentimental look on obiwans face in ANH would have been better...

all the fancy explosions and space battleing and pod racing, could have been exchanged for a slighltly more complicated character degridation of anikan.

i don't see myself as holier than thou (well, at least not because of SW), over these people that that can look past the lack of depth to enjoy a film, because i am one of those people... but not when it comes to the series i wasted my childhood on... how can one thing that so heavily expanded my imagination, be digested as related to something so shallow and without forethought.

i saw the effort that went into the OT, and stems weel beyond just the FX.
it's no where to be seen in the PT. insufficient planning and no retakes... and it shows...

Yes, I do see your point, and I perfectly understand why you feel this harms the original trilogy so much. I think the difference in our opinions is simply that I tend to interpret the movies more symbolically, whereas you barend (and most of the people who consider themselves "bashers"...ha) tend to look more literally. You want to see all the visuals match up between the trilogies, along with the teeny plot points, etc. To me, those things are pretty minor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if anything i see the visual story telling (that was an integral part of it) as "symbolic" of all the things that are inconsistant.

don't get me wrong (going back to the holier than thou thing)... i don't look down on people like you for enjoying these films... i don't think it reflects poorly on intelligence, and if anything i envy you for being able to block out so much so that you can enjoy these films... and i mean that seriously... i wanted nothing more than to enjoy these films and went to all of them with an open heart and ancynical mind... but unfortunatley... i just didn't work...

these films fell well below that acceptable standard, and left a sour taste on many tongues...

I like the idea that the PT is *supposed* to look cleaner. Lucas probably did not have that in the forefront of his mind -- he had his usual goal there...push special effects as far as they can go. I can't fault him for doing something that is the tradition of Star Wars. I certainly wouldn't accuse him of trying to drain all humanity away from his movies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the SFX of the OT were there to aaccomidate the story whereas the story of the PT was written to accomidate the SFX...

the cleaner look was justified, but it was too clean, and too disposable (as discussed more in depth in my last post, which i'm still not convinced i articulated clearly enough).

However, there is a certain irony that a trilogy in which the theme is "machinery triumphing over humanity," employs special effects that seem lifeless and sterile. That is a delightful irony, isn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

delightful and yet depressing... but yes.

more so because the technology sucks the life out of and defeats the human element so damingly.

[dougte]

instead we get random story tied by names of central characters, and cameos of background characters in childhhod form.

showing the deathstar and tantive4 was not neccesary... showing anikan and obiwan exchange a real and believable friendship that parralleled the sentimental look on obiwans face in ANH would have been better...

all the fancy explosions and space battleing and pod racing, could have been exchanged for a slighltly more complicated character degridation of anikan.

...the SFX of the OT were there to aaccomidate the story whereas the story of the PT was written to accomidate the SFX...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are all really good points. I especially like your comment about Anakin's transition to the dark side. This is especially true with ROTS. For example: one second Anakin is about to turn Palpatine over, and then in the next scene he's killing little kids. Huh? In Attack of the Clones Anakin would complain about Obi Wan and I'd think, "Huh? What are you talking about? What did Obi Wan do?" It felt like Lucas thought, "Ummm, Anakin has to turn...soooo I'll have him whine. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket!"...and then some guy from the Guiness commercials would say, "Brilliant!"

There was a heart and soul to the originals that just isn't there with these new movies.

[Patrick Bateman]

Yourusername - I am also confused as to which fancy words I used.

"Well good, let's argue rationale rather than the piss poor cry baby effort of your
previous posts. Let the rational discussion begin..."

Was it well? Previous? ... How about you climb out from behind the cover of emotional rambling and make one valid point ( by point I mean note or remark not the point of a finger - you see some words have two meanings, it's tricky but you'll get the hang of it.)

Just one ... point ... just one ... or even better how about another meaningless remark??????

[yourUsername]

Yourusername - I am also confused as to which fancy words I used.

"Well good, let's argue rationale rather than the piss poor cry baby effort of your
previous posts. Let the rational discussion begin..."

Was it well? Previous? ... How about you climb out from behind the cover of emotional rambling and make one valid point ( by point I mean note or remark not the point of a finger - you see some words have two meanings, it's tricky but you'll get the hang of it.)

Just one ... point ... just one ... or even better how about another meaningless remark??????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah. I can see you have "another meaningless remark" pretty much covered.