[Renegade]

hehe I've reduced you to the childish argument of "well if you His Excellency so much why don't you go marry him?" that's a retort I havnt heard since high school, thanks.

And I believe that when all the countries on earth except 3 vote against something that means it should stop, right? Bush carries on the blockade against the will of the entire world, doesn't that make him as bad as Saddam?

You really just want to see Cuba be taken over by your bullshit democracy don't you? You're not going to quit bitching until Cuba flies the American flag and His Excellency has been tortured to death like the US wants to do? The fuck problem do you have with Cuban sovereignty?

Castro has to hold on to power because other people might be open to bribes. The US is the reason Cuba has taken what measures it has. I've already demonstrated that most governmetns can be subverted through American bribery. You just don't seem to care and you still havn't admitted that anything we do is horrific imperialism deserving to be lumped together as one massive crime against humanity.

If Hizballah backs Hamas than that only makes me think more of them. Your kind are all the same. You see poor folks kill to defend their homes and families and you call it a crime, but rich people can send their servants to murder thousands and you'll pass it off as a mistake or a war on terror or peacekeeping or some such bullshit.

The Zionist Entity's American backed terrorists have killed more people than the Palestinian freedom fighters can ever hope to. The Zionist Entity is the true terrorist group and I very much hope for its defeat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1) Well its just a simple question.. you've claimed how good Cuba is, I'm merely asking, have you considered maybe living there? If you can't answer the simple question then maybe you should rethink your argument huh?

2) No it doesn't... its not up to the world to decide what American trade policy is. If the world wanted to they could trade with Cuba just fine and force us to unblock them from being too isolated, but they don't. Not my fault the world is too weak and lacks any balls to actually stand up to us. Eitehrway though, its still not violating international law to economically blockade someone..

3) That's such bullshit and a scape goat excuse for EVERY dictator. Oh, I can't give you guys anymore freedoms or let others have power because they won't be as good as me. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. Every dictator in the fuckin world has used that excuse to keep their own power. Hell, even Hitler had more trust in the men surrounding him than Castro does.

4) When Hamas stops purposely suicide bombing into places to deliberatly kill woman and children I'll start giving them some respect. Grab an ak-47, get some funding from Iran or someone and start fighting guirilla tactics like the Vietnamese did. Atleast that'll be respectable and might actually win something rather than looking like a group of terrorists.

5) Zionist entity will never fall... its backed by America and the military is just so much more vastly superior to anything the Middle East has. The Mid East because of being so weak for the past 100 years because of its own stupidity and constantly getting owned by the West, is basically an area with no leverage economically (Despite having oil) or militarily. Not to mention the mid east can't even unite themselves to fight Isreal cause there too busy fighting each other.

[Ham Salad]

Sweet baby jesus! This thread has once again devolved back into a socialist/capitalist debate.

I like the fact that a place like Cuba exists. What's the alternative, an island with high rise resorts, casinos, and beaches where the locals can work and not play, while the elite of Europe and the US are locked away in splendor wearing resort bracelets never venturing beyyond the four star hotel sign out front? Those places are called Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic. I think, Castro may be preserving the island for its inhabitants, it could be done another way, but at least that's the positive outcome.

I'll take Israel over any other nation over in that part of the world, any day of the week.

[J m HofMarN]

1: I'm sure that's exactly what someone would have said to His Excellency "well if you don't love the way Cuba's government works why don't you just leave?" His Excellency did leave actually. But instead of staying in exile in Mexico, His Excellency formed a batallion of brave men and returned to his homeland to fight for it's freedom. As for your bloody stupid question I've considered heading southeast quite a few times, especially at times when the cops were after my friends and I. I also intend to visit Cuba as soon as the funds are available.

So just to make an equally childish retort, if you think The Zionist Entity is so great why don't you move there? Perhaps because you know that to be a citizen of the Zionist Entity you're required to serve in their forces of oppression?

2: Jesus listen to yourself! Once again you're blaming people for being weak! Yes, the rest of the world could decide to trade with Cuba instead of the US, but then their economies would collapse. I suppose it's somehow their fault though. Everything is the fault of the oppressed while the oppressors in Washington seem to take none of the blame. Nonsense!

3: Go look up how much the US spends trying to overthrow His Excellency per year. Then look up how many times the CIA has tried to kill him. Then look up how many times the imperialists have tried to invade his island. Then try to say that His Excellency is over reacting by taking measures like he has.

4: They do things like that too but their gunman are generally killed without inflicting any casualties on the enemy. Women in the zionist entity are required to serve in the forces of oppression as well. There are no civilians in the zionist entity except for young children, and I have heard of no attacks by freedom fighters targeting them. The Zionists have killed around 4000 non combatants and who knows how many freedom fighters. Once again the Zionist Entity looks like the main terrorist.

5: So you admit that the only reason the Zionist Entity has been able to torture and murder Palestinians for going on fifty years is because of American imperialism?

[Jordan]

Poor countries will always be around. How eles will Nike and other corps make quality products........

CUBA- Run by evil dictator..........Castro overthrows evil dictator...........Castro nationalized American run factories............USA angry.............RUSSIA happy that USA is angry and offer assistance to CUBA..............CUBA says sure, we have nothing to lose............USA wins.............CUBA FUCKED.

All in all I think CUBA did what they thought was right. I think Castro started off good but tripped out on power like the rest of them. The cause was good though. I think that was the first real stab at US corporations. The real problem is finding a moral human being who could win a war and then pass down all the power to a group of people (like Sulla did in rome- Sulla was evil though).

CUBA at the time was not an educated place. Finding sound minded people who know how to run a responsible governement was probably impossible. They worked with what they had, and that was a guy with a couple generals and a legion of militia.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 26 July 2005 - 07:19 AM

[Renegade]

1: I'm sure that's exactly what someone would have said to His Excellency "well if you don't love the way Cuba's government works why don't you just leave?" His Excellency did leave actually. But instead of staying in exile in Mexico, His Excellency formed a batallion of brave men and returned to his homeland to fight for it's freedom. As for your bloody stupid question I've considered heading southeast quite a few times, especially at times when the cops were after my friends and I. I also intend to visit Cuba as soon as the funds are available.

So just to make an equally childish retort, if you think The Zionist Entity is so great why don't you move there? Perhaps because you know that to be a citizen of the Zionist Entity you're required to serve in their forces of oppression?

2: Jesus listen to yourself! Once again you're blaming people for being weak! Yes, the rest of the world could decide to trade with Cuba instead of the US, but then their economies would collapse. I suppose it's somehow their fault though. Everything is the fault of the oppressed while the oppressors in Washington seem to take none of the blame. Nonsense!

3: Go look up how much the US spends trying to overthrow His Excellency per year. Then look up how many times the CIA has tried to kill him. Then look up how many times the imperialists have tried to invade his island. Then try to say that His Excellency is over reacting by taking measures like he has.

4: They do things like that too but their gunman are generally killed without inflicting any casualties on the enemy. Women in the zionist entity are required to serve in the forces of oppression as well. There are no civilians in the zionist entity except for young children, and I have heard of no attacks by freedom fighters targeting them. The Zionists have killed around 4000 non combatants and who knows how many freedom fighters. Once again the Zionist Entity looks like the main terrorist.

5: So you admit that the only reason the Zionist Entity has been able to torture and murder Palestinians for going on fifty years is because of American imperialism?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1) I tried to be nice about it but as usual you got overly emotional and sensitive. There was nothing childish about my question, you call him excellency and praise the country so I thought it be a fair question to ask, if he is godly, why not go live there? Visiting in a country isn't living there btw. As for the Zionist thing, unlike you i've never even said that the "Zionist Entity" is a good place to be nor have i called it my excellency so there's no reason to think i'd rather live there than america.

2) So atleast we've affirmed that we're not breaking international law like you earlier stated. As for the other being weak its true, I mean they obviously don't give a shit nuff to put any pressure on us to remove the blockage or they'd of done so.

3) Yada yada yada, the bottom line is when Castro dies, his system will die with him, thus proving the failure of what his cause was. He built a country based around himself and unable to run without him. Give me a break, EVERY person working for him would be buyable? You'd be great if you were in Iran, could definitly give a good spin machine for the mullahs on why we can't have democracy cause of the great satan, America.

4) That makes no sense... so any country with mandatory conscription can be terrorrized at any time because the civilians are going to be apart of the armed services at one point? Iran has conscription for men, do you think its ok if Israel goes in and bombs them because those civilians may ONE day be soldiers or were at one point soldiers and they MAY be a threat to them at one point? Nice argument.

5) Not really. I admitted that Israel gets funding/resources from America as well as the West making it just vastly superior to the Arab states.

[barend]

Poor countries will always be around.  How eles will Nike and other corps make quality products........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the only problem being that they DON'T make qulity products...

[Slade]

Point 1: I'm truly sorry about that Gulf War thing, but I found it quite funny when YOU STARTED YELLING AT ME!!!!!!!!! like that. On a related note, in 1975 apparently our pal Henry Kissinger told Iran to attack Iraq, but instead the two countrys signed a diplomatic agreement over a disputed waterway. Though according to your arguments, the Iran-Iraq War is also Iran's fault for appearing weak to Iraq though Iraq officially started it. Regardless, let me state explicitly this time that my previous post was incorrect, because I don't want you to have an embolism or something when you read this post and (possibly) think I'm ignoring you and countering without paying attention to you.

Point 2: Your point 5, while not admiting imperialism (whether it is or isn't is irrelevant to my point) still makes the "West" look much less idealogical than you seem to hold it. And a "might makes right" attitude is pretty Machiavellian, for all of your claims about democracy.

Point 3: JM, there's a difference between terrorists and a rich nation giving military aid to another nation. Israel uses troops and drives tanks into civilian areas, it doesn't use suicide bombers because it doesn't need to. And you can call it Israel, you know, though it should still be Palestine. Maybe, call them Israelis, if you don't want to affirm the name of the country? Zionist Entity is a bit laborious.

Poor countries will always be around. How eles will Nike and other corps make quality products........

Hehe! Sometimes your wit really shows through, Jordan. Gold star!

Edit: A wee bit of clarity.

This post has been edited by Slade: 26 July 2005 - 09:52 PM

[Renegade]

Though according to your arguments, the Iran-Iraq War is also Iran's fault for appearing weak to Iraq though Iraq officially started it.

What argument? Iran-Iraq war happened cause Iran looked weak as it was reeling from a revolution, Saddam thought it be a perfect tme to invade and grab some land and idealogically they were completely opposed with Saddam being a secularist and Iran now an Islamic Republic under Khomeini.

And all i was saying with the last point is why Israel will never lose to Palestine, since he asserted they will.

This post has been edited by Renegade: 26 July 2005 - 10:22 PM

[Slade]

Hmm... Nevermind, I misread something. I believe I meant that according to your own logic that the Iran-Iraq war was justified (you poo-pooed it), though that's irrelevent to current discussion... My bad.

[J m HofMarN]

Jordan- Surprisingly enough I'm in complete agreement with you on your statements about Cuba, though I think that His Excellency holding on to power is the result of the US trying to take it from him.

To put it this way: If Mexico continuisly demanded that president Bush should resign, and tried to have him killed, do you think Bush would be more likely to step down or less? You can't give in to foreign intimidation or you and your nation look weak. His Excellency, for any faults he may have, has proven Cuba to be strong and made it a much better place than it was under US rule.

Renegade:

1: Oh bullshit. Your argument is just a silly childish variation of "love it or leave it" Hey, America is the country I live in, I have friends here, do you think I'd move to Cuba just because I happen to be a fan of His Excellency? Of course not, and so you think that proving that I wouldnt want to permanently emigrate somehow strengthens your argument in some way. When in fact it just shows that you use ignorant tactics.

2: Oh come on. You found one point to discount so you assume that nullifies all the other times the imperialists have violated international law. And the blockade is illegal and immoral, and the entire world is against it. How do you excuse that? And yes the world has tried to do something, they've voted on it like civilized people do, but the US responds to such votes by harboring terrorist filth like Carillo Padilla and helping him to blow up Cuba's fencing team.

3: Oh you're right. The US isn't spending millions to try to take over Cuba again. The US didn't control Cuba for decades under a brutal dictatorship. The US does not spend millions to influence elections in other countries. The US is not imperialist. His Excellency and I live in a fantasy world occupied by a bloodthirsty super power that spreads tyranny and murder across the globe, far removed from the real world of the benign champion of democracy that exists up your ass, where your head is apparently stuck.

4: So any country without mandatory conscription should be bombed, and any protesting children should be murdered by Zionist pigs? Come on, I don't give a shit how many the freedom fighters kill, until the Zionist Entity gives Palestine its freedom it will be clear that the freedom fighters have not killed enough. The Zionist soldiers kill more Palestinian civilians than the so-called terrorists, so who's worse? A "terrorist" who sacrifices his life to kill ten people, or a Zionist pilot who drops a bomb from well out of range, kills 50 civilians with it, and then flies back home to sleep happily in his bed and glut on the blood he has spilled?

Conscription alone is not an excuse for terrorism. But the Zionist citizens largely allow these policies to go on, and indeed, through conscription, participate in them (except for a few hundred who are in jail for refusing to aid the Zionist genocide, and who's courage I applaud) Zionist citizens also voted Sharon into office though they knew he was a murderer and war criminal wanted for trial.

The Zionist Entity's population had a choice, and they chose to oppress Palestine. But what choice did the Palestinians have whether to be oppressed or not, especially when many of their greatest leaders, such as the would-be president and Sheik Abdel Yassin, were assassinated by the zionists?

5: Ah I see, so because the Zionist Entity has the approval of the imperialists that makes them better, it makes them worthy of having weapons of mass destruction (which, by the way, they're not supposed to have, and yet no war has been waged by the imperialists against them)

Do you or do you not admit that the Zionist Entity has killed imprisoned or displaced over 1 hundred thousand Palestinians? Isn't that genocide? And if the US is their main weapons provider than isn't the US aiding genocide once again? You see, the attitudes from the 1800s still exist, only instead of thinking it's ok to wage genocide against people with red or brown skin, we focus on those with olive skin.

And I can promise you that unless the Zionist Entity submits to the demands of the Palestinians it will be destroyed. If the refugees are not allowed to return, if the Zionist terrorist bombings and assassinations do not cease, if ALL Palestinian prisoners are not freed, if Palestine is not recognized as a soveriegn state, if the illegal settlements are not removed, than Palestine will fight on and their strength will never falter until the Zionist Entity is laid to waist.

[Renegade]

Your argument is just a silly childish variation of "love it or leave it" Hey, America is the country I live in, I have friends here, do you think I'd move to Cuba just because I happen to be a fan of His Excellency?

Not really, I'm only saying it because you refer to a human being as HIS EXCELLENCY. I mean I dunno about you, but i take that pretty serious when you reach a point that you call someone by a title as if hes a god. To me its disgusting but I guess your fine with it and that the only reason I said maybe you should go to where your lord is?

You found one point to discount so you assume that nullifies all the other times the imperialists have violated international law. And the blockade is illegal and immoral, and the entire world is against it.

Erm, you just said I nullified one point and then went on to REPEAT that it still violated international law... it doesn't VIOLATE international law. It's the same mistake you make with interpreting things as imperialism. Things may be immoral, things may be wrong, but label things properly, not EVERYTHING is a violation of international law and imperialism. We don't give nuff money to Africa to cure AIDS, is that violating international law too? Is it imperialism? Classify things properly. Btw it was the second false thing you had in there, you also said its violating international law to put pictures of Saddam in his underwear, which was pretty hellarious too. And it does matter when you make a mistake in your argument because it opens up the idea that perhaps everything you say is a deliberate attempt to mislead (which im not saying but just for future reference when you get in real debates/arguments thats how it will be interpreted).

Oh you're right

Thanks for admitting it. . The rest of your stuff had nothing to do with the fact i made in my post which is quite clearly, that Castro's regime will fall when he dies and his system therefore a failure.

4: So any country without mandatory conscription should be bombed, and any protesting children should be murdered by Zionist pigs? Come on, I don't give a shit how many the freedom fighters kill, until the Zionist Entity gives Palestine its freedom it will be clear that the freedom fighters have not killed enough. The Zionist soldiers kill more Palestinian civilians than the so-called terrorists, so who's worse? A "terrorist" who sacrifices his life to kill ten people, or a Zionist pilot who drops a bomb from well out of range, kills 50 civilians with it, and then flies back home to sleep happily in his bed and glut on the blood he has spilled?

No idea what your even saying in this argument... you argued originally that all Israelies are justifiebly killed even if there not in the armed forces at the time because they will EVENTUALLY be in it or were at one point so thus terrorism can target them. I merely pointed out that argument is bullshit because lots of countries have mandatory conscription so I guess it be ok to kill their civilians too because they too will be in the military at one time. And the difference between the terrorists and the Israeli military is again what you always fail to see, one is the deliberate killing of civilians to change an opposing policy towards you through fear, while the other is collateral dmg in rooting out a opposing ENEMY force/person. Maybe both are evil, but one is definitly worse than the other.

The Zionist Entity's population had a choice, and they chose to oppress Palestine

I know you think jews are to blame for the entire situation but its not that simple. Arabs don't want an israeli state PERIOD either, while the israeli's wouldn't mind having a Palestine neighbor (albeit not as big but better than the opposing group). Read up on the situation after Israel/Palestine were seperated originally, Palestine wasn't given as much land but they also got jacked by their "arab" breathern too who took some of their land as well. Plus there is a legitimate case to be made that Palestine as well as other Middle Eastern countries (ie. Iran)'s help and support of Nazi Germany just lead them to get what they deserve. Not to mention again that they were the first to initially attack Israel immidiately upon its establishment...

And I can promise you that unless the Zionist Entity submits to the demands of the Palestinians it will be destroyed. If the refugees are not allowed to return, if the Zionist terrorist bombings and assassinations do not cease, if ALL Palestinian prisoners are not freed, if Palestine is not recognized as a soveriegn state, if the illegal settlements are not removed, than Palestine will fight on and their strength will never falter until the Zionist Entity is laid to waist.

Palestine walks away from more peace talks than Israel.. and anytime a moderate does come in thats arab he gets knocked off (ie. Egyptian, name slips my mind). Arafat and arabs i'm pretty sure have even admitted that they got 95% of their contentions in the Clinton peace talks and he still failed to act. And Israel will never fall, its just an impossibility. If they really wanted to, they could load up planes and strike down on Palestine at will, they are just THAT much more vastly superior and Palestine is just THAT weak (and lacks help since all the other arab friends of theres are all too corrupt to lay a helping hand). At most they might get a lil more of what they want but Israel will always exist at roughly the same size unless its basically nuked (which is possible, although unlikely, but i'm sure you'd enjoy it)

This post has been edited by Renegade: 27 July 2005 - 12:39 AM

[Renegade]

Hmm... Nevermind, I misread something. I believe I meant that according to your own logic that the Iran-Iraq war was justified (you poo-pooed it), though that's irrelevent to current discussion... My bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Btw i didn't mean to yell in that post, but people (dunno if u did it but JM did) kept repeating over and over that we WANTED Iraq to invade Iran even though i repeadetly disproved that claim.. yet it kept being brought up.

[Slade]

I don't know about wanting to invade it, but it was certainly Cold War bullshit, the US and Soviet Union fighting proxie wars...

[Renegade]

I don't know about wanting to invade it, but it was certainly Cold War bullshit, the US and Soviet Union fighting proxie wars...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wouldn't be cold war bullshit either .. why would we give weapons to Iraq ( a more soviet leaning country) so that they could invade a country that was neither pro soviet or us country

[Mnesymone]

Is it just me or are there only two people in here, finding more stuff to disagree with each other about?

These twin titans of arguing are running, it seems, about three arguments simultaneously. Both are sitting at opposite extremes, and no matter what they say they will never come to an agreement.

So lets see: the Israel argument - or as JM put it, the Zionist Entity.
The Zionists haven't existed since about the 1930s - the Zionist Entity no longer exists, seeing as the Zionists were trying to form the Jewish state, and such a state now exists. Essentially there was the whole post-Holocaust guilt and shame that the western powers did not act earlier to avert the Final Solution and so they decided to give them a country. Most leading Jewish intellectuals at the time were of the opinion that beyond the Holocaust, there could be no greater tragedy than the formation of a Jewish state. Despite the warnings of Jewish intelligentsia, and despite the fact that during the interwar period the Zionists movement had, as part of their campaign, formed a cellular organisation and launched attacks within the Middle East that had laid the foundation of a deep resentment towards the concept of a Jewish state. America, France and Britain form the state of Israel in Palestine - if history was not already in turmoil from the World War, it would have wept to see this - seeing as the Middle East had peacefully became Christian and subsequently Islamic, and its numerous races and nations were in a delicate balance. The Arabic League forms with the intent of dissolving the illegal state of Israel, but the Western powers support and legitimise Israel. A military solution is attempted, and will later be attempted during the 1967 Six Day War and the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Israel, with US, UK and French support forms a strong and advanced military, the best in the region and one of the worlds most capable fighting forces. The provision of arms to the Middle East begins to falter as the Soviet Union fails and no major power will sell arms to the Middle East. Some nations then pursue peaceful commercial interests and good relations with western powers (see Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates today), while others gradually fall to radical philosophy and poverty. Israel asserts that by its predominance it has become legitimate and begins mucking around with borders and the like - paramilitary resistance to Israel supersedes military and we see the modern 'reprisals to reprisals' vicious cycle warfare between Israel and Palestine.
By today, Israel has become too entrenched to dissolve, though its dissolution is the only way any lasting peace can be brought to the Middle East - it is maintained by supplies of arms and funds from the United States, and pursues cutting edge defence science. If any nation in the Middle East could be said to have weapons of mass destruction, it is Israel. Israel is, by its existence, in the wrong, while the paramilitary warfare pursued by the Palestinians is also wrong. Understandable but not justified. Oh, and that Security Barrier is another wrong thing. Israel needs to release its prisoners, withdraw its settlements, discontinue the security barrier and keep its guard within its borders. Palestinian paramilitary does more harm than good to the Palestinian cause, and such attacks should also cease.

Then there is Cuba. History holds its breath as a tiny island becomes the centre of a nuclear glaring contest that really scares the pants out of any rational thinking men. JM, you might want to think about not calling Castro 'His Excellency' - he has a name and he can stick to it - titles are pointless. If everyone used titles we wouldn't have enough time for anything else - I've always considered that the best honorific anyone can rightfully wear is their own name, which is also the gravest insult that can rightfully be made to them. Not so complicated here - the blockade is damn understandable, because no one wants IRMs with nuclear warheads being assembled within hang-glider of their coast. Not removing nuclear bases from Turkey is a proud and risky move, one that could have ended up quite badly. Arming the strategic arsenal is a really stupid move by America. When that happens, it does send a strong message, but it encourages them to do likewise.
Castro finds himself in deeper crap than he bargained for and lets bigger heads in bigger countries do the talking and that's the best move he could hav made.
The Americans and their red menace theories lead them to believe that communism is contagious as the common cold and they do everything beyond razing Cuba in hellfire to try and put Castro out and implement the American Way in Cuba, despite the fact that Cuba, like every other country since Marx wrote his book, is not communist. The joke is on McCarthy - far from being domino-effect contagious, a communist state has never existed - and out of a bludgeoning insistence that America be the city on the hill they maintain a pointless campaign against Cuba. Cuba resists, because they have every right not to kowtow to the pointless wishes of a foreign power to reform their government. Though some people kick up a fuss about it, it'll all be over soon. Once Castro shuffles of his mortal coil, the Americans won't care enough anymore, since they have a great way of taking politics personally, and even if someone were to remain 100% loyal to Castro's policies, the Americans won't feel the same way about it.

However, all that is partly why I prefer cars to politics. Enjoy the argument.