[floppydisk]

I'm sure this has been done to death, but doesn't anyone else think that prophecies are weak plot devices? Not only in Star Wars, but in stories in general.

[CowboyCurtis]

They are, and it's interesting that there is really no mention of them in the OT, either, so why were they even needed in the PT.

[Despondent]

They're good for surmising the inevitable. Like the Norns in Gottedamerung, the 4th opera of the Wagner ring cycle. Of course you're 13 hours in at that point, so confirming the direction of what you've been following appeals to one's cognitive dissonance.

The PT comes BEFORE what we ALREADY know HAPPENED. At this point there's no veiled secrecy, just pandering. Storytelling See-threepio ought to have stepped in to deliver those portions.

[barend]

prophesy belongs scritcly, and preferably rarely, in fantasy...

and only oldschool fantasy...

it worked in dune, and belongs in films like the dark crystal...

but you can't unmystify the force with midichlorians and throw in a prophesy at the same time...

it's just lame... you could say someone had a vision of a boy who would change things, but a prophesy is just pushing too much importance into your story... that should be up to the audience...

[Trigormike]

Storytelling See-threepio ought to have stepped in to deliver those portions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Threepio in ANH: "I'm not much more than an interpreter, and not very good at telling stories."

Not good at telling stories,eh? Now who does that remind me of...?

This post has been edited by Trigormike: 15 June 2005 - 07:29 PM

[floppydisk]

Secretely, Star Wars is all about C3PO and R2D2's relationship. Really. They're in all the movies, and they seem to go from friends to a need/hate relationship to best buddies again.

It was in front of your face the whole time. You just didn't see it.

This post has been edited by floppydisk: 16 June 2005 - 02:17 PM

[Mnesymone]

Prophecy works in many things - however not in Star Wars.
The most fundamental reason - the jedi are themselves prophets, in addition to healers, teachers, warriors and occasional Super Grovers and lilac-lightsabered gangsta badasses. If they can see things veiled by space and time - Yoda's Mirror of Galadriel/Force vision speech on Dagobah - they don't need prophecies because they are perfectly capable of seeing into the future anyways.
Also it is fairly weak.
Who made the prophecy anyway? The mysterious Syfo Dias? (sarcasm, possibly)

[DarthTherion]

Since the PT deals with a subject that is the exact opposite of the OT (i.e. technology overcoming humanity), Lucas wanted to have a different approach with these movies. Since the audience already knows what is going to happen, a prophecy is a device that makes sense, since (for the audience, anyway) everything *is* written in stone.

Of course, Lucas avoids the painfully obvious "There is a prophecy of a boy who will destroy the Jedi!" and instead makes the exact wording of the prophecy vague enough so that the role of the "Chosen One" seems almost positive. Indeed, the Jedi have interpreted "bringing balance" as "destroying the Sith." Well, they were half right....

The PT is also supposed to be a tragedy, and in tragedies, Fate always wins out in the end. No matter how hard you try to avoid your Destiny, you cannot help but fulfill it. Greek drama, especially, is full of prophecies, oracles, and Fate.

"You cannot escape your Destiny."
--Obi-wan Kenobi

[floppydisk]

Since the PT deals with a subject that is the exact opposite of the OT (i.e. technology overcoming humanity), Lucas wanted to have a different approach with these movies. Since the audience already knows what is going to happen, a prophecy is a device that makes sense, since (for the audience, anyway) everything *is* written in stone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but if the audience already knows what's going to happen, there's no need for a prophecy at all. All it does is complicate the story and destroy the mystery of it all.

The PT is also supposed to be a tragedy, and in tragedies, Fate always wins out in the end. No matter how hard you try to avoid your Destiny, you cannot help but fulfill it.  Greek drama, especially, is full of prophecies, oracles, and Fate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Meh. I get what you mean, but I still hate the idea of fate. If you already know how it's going to end, what's the point of watching it at all? If you already have something that says "X will happen no matter what", don't you think that it sort of detracts from the story? Instead of having any number of things that could happen, you have only one.

That's not saying that any movie that uses fate will be bad. It's more like a movie with fate is Half-Life. Great game, very linear. A movie without the fate stuff is Deus Ex. Again, great game, but this time you can approach your tasks from any number of angles instead of just one preset course.

Get what I'm saying?

[xenduck]

i agree with darththerion, the prophecy lends the element of tragedy and connects star wars with classical story-telling. the idea here is not a matter of what is definitly going to happen, only how it will happen. its the roundabout that is interesting, like oedipus, king herod and taosim in general, the more you fight something, the more you make it happen.
when we watch an episode of macgyver we know he will succeed at whatever he's doing, but we wanna see how he'll do it.

[SithAvenger]

I agree with xenduck. In every show no matter how difficult the problem is, the good guy will always suceed.

And I like stories that involve fate that can't be avoided.

[floppydisk]

The good guys don't always win at everything. It goes something like this:

>Bad guys plot evil to steal cupcakes
>Good guys try to stop them
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot thier revenge
>Bad guys win
>Good guys plot thier revenge
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot evil to steal cupcakes
>Good guys try to stop them
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot thier revenge
>Bad guys win
>Good guys plot thier revenge
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot evil to steal cupcakes
>Good guys try to stop them
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot thier revenge
>Bad guys win
>Good guys plot thier revenge
>Good guys win

It's a never ending circle. The good guys may win, but evil will always win again, but good will also always win again.

[Hari Seldon]

The good guys don't always win at everything. It goes something like this:

>Bad guys plot evil to steal cupcakes
>Good guys try to stop them
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot thier revenge
>Bad guys win
>Good guys plot thier revenge
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot evil to steal cupcakes
>Good guys try to stop them
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot thier revenge
>Bad guys win
>Good guys plot thier revenge
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot evil to steal cupcakes
>Good guys try to stop them
>Good guys win
>Bad guys plot thier revenge
>Bad guys win
>Good guys plot thier revenge
>Good guys win

It's a never ending circle. The good guys may win, but evil will always win again, but good will also always win again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"The Mysterious and Never-Ending Cupcake Prophecy, that would be!"

[SithAvenger]

When the good guys lose, in the next chapter they will win anyways. And then the bad guys will win. And then the good guys. And then the bad guys. God damn it! It's the circle of life!