[StarWarsIsUs]

BTW: ""The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."


That's where I got my 'Force is relative to all who can use it' theory.

[barend]

Well to establish Anakin as the "Chosen One", the most powerful, etc in a fairly definitive manner. I don't think "Check this kid out - the force is strong in him" "Yes - My god I am sensing more of the force with him than with Master Yoda! how is that possible". I know many of you feel that the actual scene itself was probably worse but I think it basically comes down to how you feel about the idea of there being a "scientific" explanation of force ability and the idea that some are more force sensitive than others by nature. If you don't like those ideas then no ammount of arguing why midichlorians make sense is gonna change your mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so QG need to do blood test to assertain that Anikan was 'special'
but Obiwan who was trained by QG didn't need to test luke, who defeated anikan?

Obi wan just kind of went with a gut feeling?

MCs may be herreditary, and dictate that someone will be forcepotent... but if only one parent has them, shouldn't luke only be half as strong?

you need to many rules to back up scientific angle. forget all this "it ruins the magic" stuff...

just listen...

you cannot introduce a scientific notion or explanaition and leave it inadequatley explored... there are two many questions leaft behind.There is a certain sense of responsibility that comes with such an action and it has nothing to do with OT -v- PT Star Wars arguments. It's a rule of story telling, and there is no noble rebellion to breaking it. SW is more fantasy than sci fi, and now Lucas is trying to make it purely sci fi. sci-fi requires reasearch, you can't just say for example... "this is a scientific machine that can make a planet inahabitable by giving the planet breathable air" you have a responsibilty to the reader to or viewer to explain it.
you don't have to actually invet the damn machine, but you do have to portray it in such a fashion that it leaves no unwanted doors open.

Midichlorines do this.

conceptually there a bad idea. Not terrible, but introduced 23 years after establishing a concept is poor form.

actually... here's a point i made earlier...

The biggest problem here is the inadequately explored parameters of the midi-chlorianic substitute for accepted and previously established spiritual/fantasy based mystic nature of the force.

You cannot take something that has inspired people for over twenty years then turn it into shallow sci-fi.

The question then comes along of 'what happened to the force flowing through everything?'

The force works effortlessly on the "weak minded". but if the Prequels are anything to go by, 'weak minded' must mean 'low midi-chlorian count' or something... and why is it a racial attribute of Wattos race that they have an inherent immunity to mind tricks? He doesn't say "I’m too smart for that" it's a racial thing, or so the character claims. Therefore it must be safe to assume that midi-chlorians, being the real force sensitive creatures, choose who is affected and how. To some they dish out power, to others the dish out susceptibility to those powers to others they seem to grant neither (or choose not to live in).

The more questions you ask, the more are raised...  How then are these things affecting each other? Obviously they are in control of who gets what, so how is it possible to control them. Why does the Jedi control them and not the other way around? Or do they control an individuals choice to be dark or light? And how does the whole mind trick thing work then?

Jedi uses power to control mind of another: Jedi tells midi-chlorians to inform the midi-chlorians in the other person to take control of victims mind, seizing all will, and then wait for instructions?

or do the midi-chlorians in someone like Watto stand as a defensive line in that scenario and say 'no deal'? and if they are indeed that powerful why do they not imbue Watto with powers?

Perhaps there are defensive midi-chlorians and offensive midi-chlorians, or more?

Once you apply a vague scientific explanation to something mystical it is your obligation to explain it. if you cannot, then you really shouldn't try.
Don’t apply Sci-Fi to fantasy if you know nothing about it!!! George Lucas not only destroyed one of the more fascinating aspects of his universe, but he failed to replace it with anything of real substance. It's not very professional... 'Plan 9 from outer space' didn't have plot holes that big.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Despondent]

It's like when you go to a restaurant that you really love. Everything's great and it's always a good, satisfying meal. Well, there are no real big surprises, anyway.

Next time you go, the same thing you always order tastes really bad. And it makes you sick afterwards. So you never go back.

What a wasted opportunity. If you'd have simply called the chef to your table for a chat, all would be made well: the chef explains he found a way to "improve" the dish.

What's your problem? It IS HIS RESTAURANT! YOU Have NO Right to disagree.

sorry. went kinda polar there.

[xenduck]

did anyone read my last post? was it not worth commenting on?

anyway, i find myself agreeing with bothsides: on one hand, i think we needed to learn more about the inner workings of the force, on the other, its a bit late to dump such a revision on the galaxy. but keep in mind only one generation has grown up on the OT's version of the force, the rest will see them in order. and i think thats the big issue here, not wether they make sense or if they were necessary. a whole bunch of people were obliged to come up with their own understanding of the force on the OT's terms, and now the rug has been pulled out from under most of them.

[Despondent]

a whole bunch of people were obliged to come up with their own understanding of the force on the OT's terms, and now the rug has been pulled out from under most of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's right. There's a split-second of disorientation (free-fall, actually) before slamming into the surface. That smarts.

We were just staying on the rug like we'd learned.

[CowboyCurtis]

Hof and Barend have it right...

Midichlorians offer nothing to the plot... nothing to the story. It is a plot point that is completely forgotten by the second film. If it has no impact on the second film, and no impact on the third film (I've read the script, there is no mention of midichlorians in there), then it is an unnecessary item. It has to be disregarded. Just like the prophecy. The "prophecy" is not expounded upon, nor revealed... it has no weight, and it has no pay-off. That's why Obi-Wan's line (spoilerage here) at the end of Episode III just seems weak.

Story! Story! Story! Lucas constantly talks about story and plot, but he's not getting it right!

If you say, "the midichlorians were needed to identify Anakin as a Jedi." No, it didn't. There already was a method in place in the OT. They just "sensed" them. Why does it need to be any more "complicated" than that?

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 28 April 2005 - 11:45 PM

[darthsmash]

I said the KEY is KNOWLEDGE. Luke's family had a KNOWLEDGE of the FORCE, so the FORCE flowed through them.

But Luke did not inherit any knowledge from his father. He never knew him. He recieved half an hours force training from Kenobi in ANH but suddenly by the end of the film "the force is strong in this one"? And Leia had NO knowledge of the force whatsoever and yet she is "the other" that Yoda speaks of? If Ben and Yoda could have turned anyone into a great Jedi just by sharing their knowledge of the force would you choose the son of the man who turned to the dark side and murdered all his friends. Would you choose someone who is "reckless, impatient" and "too old to begin the training" as your "last hope"?

But that doesn't mean because one given person has more force flowing through them, that they cannot be defeated by someone who only knows a few force tricks. ITS RELATIVE. POWER IS RELATIVE. Egotism is an illusion created by our minds. What the OT said, the quotes you posted, are symbolic... given Egotisms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm really not sure what you are saying here. That the quotes I gave were meant metaphorically?

BTW: ""The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."


That's where I got my 'Force is relative to all who can use it' theory.

OK. I don't really think it has anything to say about the matter either way. "All living things contribute to the force but not necessarily to the same degree and not all are necessarily aware of it" does not contradict any of what Kenobi says there.
As I said before I think its a fair assumption that force potential is equal amongst individuals if ou are taking ANH as a stand-alone film but I really think the later (OT) films have shown this isn't so.

[darthsmash]

so QG need to do blood test to assertain that Anikan was 'special'
but Obiwan who was trained by QG didn't need to test luke, who defeated anikan?

Obi wan just kind of went with a gut feeling?

A test was unnecessary because knowing who Luke's father was Kenobi and Yoda knew that Luke could become a mega-super-ultra-power force user. because of the heritability of the midochlorians.
Or if you like a test may have been performed soon after their birth. I don't know I have the book but haven't read it etc don't want to know too much. But all signs point to explanation numero uno.

MCs may be herreditary, and dictate that someone will be forcepotent... but if only one parent has them, shouldn't luke only be half as strong?

Not necessarily. Genetics are complex and midichlorians, from their description in TPM and there obvious real world inspiration in the form of mitochondria, do not seem to be passed on in the same way as nuclear genetic material. in the real world ones mitochondrial DNA comes entirely from ones mother. Possibly in the SW universe midichlorian count is determinedby paternal parentage. Who knows? The answer is whatever George Lucas wants. Whats important is that Kenobi and Yoda must have been fairly certain that Luke woul have inherited enough of his fathers strength to take on the dynamic duo.

you need to many rules to back up scientific angle. forget all this "it ruins the magic" stuff...

just listen...

you cannot introduce a scientific notion or explanaition and leave it inadequatley explored... there are two many questions leaft behind.There is a certain sense of responsibility that comes with such an action and it has nothing to do with OT -v- PT Star Wars arguments. It's a rule of story telling, and there is no noble rebellion to breaking it.

Uh I disagree. Does Lucas have to explain how hyperdrives work? They are a scientific notion - they obviously don't work by interacting with a "mystical energy field". And yet they all jump in the Falcon and it isn't once eplained in any detail how the hyperdrive enables them to travel faster than the universal speed limit that is the speed of light. How in the love of Kolker does a lightsabre work?
Do the X-men movies explain how Jean Grey can move things with her mind. There is a scientific notion behind it all, they are "mutants". But I'd love to hear a detailed scientific explanation of how some random genetic abberation has enabled her to manipulate matter without physical contact.
At some point you have to just accept or reject the concept. Because there is no explanation in real world physics. It just doesn't work. Midichlorians just change the point t which you can either go with "OK force, midichlorians gotcha" or "No! Thats not true! Thats impossible!!!"

SW is more fantasy than sci fi, and now Lucas is trying to make it purely sci fi. sci-fi requires reasearch, you can't just say for example... "this is a scientific machine that can make a planet inahabitable by giving the planet breathable air" you have a responsibilty to the reader to or viewer to explain it.

As I said you can just say something like that and people have done so all the time. there is nolaw in sci-fi that everything must be super-plausible unless you are talking "hard sci-fi" where people love to discuss the implications of relativity theory on space travel and wormholes etc. Which is really pretty irrelevant because SW is hardly sci-fi let alone sci-fi of this particular ilk.

you don't have to actually invet the damn machine, but you do have to portray it in such a fashion that it leaves no unwanted doors open.

At what stage does one stop? Short of demonstrating th logical possibility of ones idea in a paper to be published in a theoretical maths/physics journal there is always gonna be an "unwanted door open". Or if you like you can always ask "OK. So the confrabulator engine is what enables the Tong machine to teleport matter. So how does the confrabulator work?"

Midichlorines do this.

conceptually there a bad idea. Not terrible, but introduced 23 years after establishing a concept is poor form.

actually... here's a point i made earlier...

The biggest problem here is the inadequately explored parameters of the midi-chlorianic substitute for accepted and previously established spiritual/fantasy based mystic nature of the force.

You cannot take something that has inspired people for over twenty years then turn it into shallow sci-fi.

The question then comes along of 'what happened to the force flowing through everything?'

Still does far as I can tell.

The force works effortlessly on the "weak minded". but if the Prequels are anything to go by, 'weak minded' must mean 'low midi-chlorian count' or something... and why is it a racial attribute of Wattos race that they have an inherent immunity to mind tricks? He doesn't say "I’m too smart for that" it's a racial thing, or so the character claims. Therefore it must be safe to assume that midi-chlorians, being the real force sensitive creatures, choose who is affected and how. To some they dish out power, to others the dish out susceptibility to those powers to others they seem to grant neither (or choose not to live in).

Easy answer. Resistance to mind trick occurs when a Jedi mind trick would ruin the story/give the characters an easy out. Such as:
"You will give Captain Solo and the Wookie to me"
"OK"
Cut to Dagobah.

The more questions you ask, the more are raised...  How then are these things affecting each other? Obviously they are in control of who gets what, so how is it possible to control them. Why does the Jedi control them and not the other way around? Or do they control an individuals choice to be dark or light?

OK your last two questions: (don't get what you are saying with the first two)
1 Because a movie about warriors controlled by microscopic organsms would be really dumb. Because the midichlorians are not in themselves sentient.
2 No.
All IMO of course

And how does the whole mind trick thing work then?
Jedi uses power to control mind of another: Jedi tells midi-chlorians to inform the midi-chlorians in the other person to take control of victims mind, seizing all will, and then wait for instructions?

or do the midi-chlorians in someone like Watto stand as a defensive line in that scenario and say 'no deal'? and if they are indeed that powerful why do they not imbue Watto with powers?

Perhaps there are defensive midi-chlorians and offensive midi-chlorians, or more?

Why does the mind trick have to go through Watto's midichlorians? The force affects inanaimate midichlorianless objects why can't it go:
Jedi's will -> midichlorians -> force -> stormtroopers brain.
Makes much more sense and is always the way I took it.
And I would suggest it is something about the structure of Watto's brain that gives him his resistance and not his midichlorians.

Once you apply a vague scientific explanation to something mystical it is your obligation to explain it. if you cannot, then you really shouldn't try.
Don’t apply Sci-Fi to fantasy if you know nothing about it!!! George Lucas not only destroyed one of the more fascinating aspects of his universe, but he failed to replace it with anything of real substance. It's not very professional... 'Plan 9 from outer space' didn't have plot holes that big.

Alright I think i'm done with this thread. Has been time consuming but fun. Though of course I reserve the right to change my mind and waste more bandwidth at any time.

[Just another wretched fan]

midichlorains don't explain shit because they still don't say how a stupid cellular organism can defy the laws of physics. They are not a scientific explaination. they are vague and useless. period.

don't get what you are saying with the first two

fuck it i quit

if you don't understand our rebuttles than replying is just total waste of time.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Luke did, However, learn what the force was, and had used the force when training with the floating ball thingy. He had knowledge, before Vader said that.

Look, it's just a damned theory. Maybe I'm wrong. At least I don't support the idea of medichlorians.

[CowboyCurtis]

Even in the early preconcepts of ANH, there were no mentions, not even a vague, generalized intimation of "midiclorians" that would explain the Force, or used to recognize another Jedi---never! This was a last minute---pulled out of his ASS idea that Lucas put into the script.

Show me where in the PT's midichlorians have importance to the plot or story!! SHOW ME!!! Point to the spot!! PLEASE!!

This debate IS pointless. Midiclorians in many ways is a useless item in the Star Wars universe. It has no impact, no power, no story-value---nothing!!

[xenduck]

i realize this debate is dying painfully, but i wanted to repost this message that seemed to get ignored. incidently, it works as an answer to cowboycurtis's last post. i really, really,really want feedback on this!

wow, things seem to have gotten a little outta hand. this was supposed to be easy! so here i go again. like i said in my intital post, the OT leaves questions that need to be answered. most the questions arent answered cause they are not relevant to luke's story, they are, however, essential to anakin's. now i realize lucas didnt have midichlorians in mind originally, but in my opinion they are a valiant attepmt to answer these questions....

all that we know of jedi from the OT is that  there was once more than two of them, they were hunted by vader and the emperor, they were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the old republic, and the majority of the galaxy seems to think the force is a hokie religion.

so my first question is, were jedi self-proclaimed guardians or were they goverment sanctioned? since self-proclaiming is self-righteous im going to assume they were part of the governing body (as seen later in the PT), but how can a technologically advanced society, encompassing countless cultures, endorse any one relegion? there would have to be quantifiable, emperical, proof...midichlorians! therefore, only a layperson would refer to the force as a religion (and probably they would get choked for it!).

can anyone be a jedi? no, sorry. if we could all use the force then we would be using it in some capacity; and to varying degrees. otherwise, luke would not be special or even valuable. but what predesposes one to the force?... midichlorians! but what makes one jedi (like luke or anakin) special?...midichlorains!(but where do they come from?)

so how could ben and the emperor know that anakin's offspring would be powerful? there must be something hereditary...midichlorians! (like a virus, they can be transfered through parents, though not a pretty analogy; maybe midichlorian is the name of the force-sensetive gene)

if forceadepts couldnt be identified, wouldnt there be other force cults besides jedi and sith? how could the empire stop jedi wannabes if no one could tell who was a forceadept?...midichlorians!

if force adepts are rare, and it takes one to know one, then how can a limited number of jedi find enough new recruits across an entire galaxy to sustain their cult? there must be something a layperson can test for...midichlorians!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[CowboyCurtis]

Okay, I'll bite, but this'll probably the last time:

all that we know of jedi from the OT is that there was once more than two of them, they were hunted by vader and the emperor, they were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the old republic, and the majority of the galaxy seems to think the force is a hokie religion.

Yes, and they can only think of it that way if there wasn't scientific proof that people can have superpowers.

so my first question is, were jedi self-proclaimed guardians or were they goverment sanctioned? since self-proclaiming is self-righteous im going to assume they were part of the governing body (as seen later in the PT), but how can a technologically advanced society, encompassing countless cultures, endorse any one relegion? there would have to be quantifiable, emperical, proof...midichlorians! therefore, only a layperson would refer to the force as a religion (and probably they would get choked for it!).

The way the PT presents it... it's not even a religion. It's as you describe... a group of people gathered together because they have a high count of midi's which give them their powers.... like a police force.

As presented in the PT. They're not a bunch of priests. They're a bunch of government thugs. So, with that in mind, how could General Motti call it a "religion?"

He can't. Doesn't work.


can anyone be a jedi? no, sorry. if we could all use the force then we would be using it in some capacity; and to varying degrees. otherwise, luke would not be special or even valuable. but what predesposes one to the force?... midichlorians! but what makes one jedi (like luke or anakin) special?...midichlorains!(but where do they come from?)

I think people in the Star Wars universe could. They just called it other things, "luck," "karma,".... just like Obi-Wan said in ANH. Han refused to believe it.

And I've brought this up before, and I will again, but the statement, "may the Force be with you," would have no meaning with midichlorians. Shouldn't it be more like, "I hope you've got enough midi's to do that..."

so how could ben and the emperor know that anakin's offspring would be powerful? there must be something hereditary...midichlorians! (like a virus, they can be transfered through parents, though not a pretty analogy; maybe midichlorian is the name of the force-sensetive gene)

"The Force" is with the Skywalkers... that is how they would know. Vader in the trench: "The Force is strong with this one," not "this boy has a lot of midi's! Wow!"

Don't need midi's to "identify" a Jedi. Vader: "...I sense a presence... a presence I haven't felt since." The means was already in place in the OT.


if force adepts are rare, and it takes one to know one, then how can a limited number of jedi find enough new recruits across an entire galaxy to sustain their cult? there must be something a layperson can test for...midichlorians!

They use the Force... they would sense it... which is far more effective than giving everyone a blood test....

[Just another wretched fan]

So many people don't believe in Jedi or the force in the OT. If the governement sponsored a group of people who had biological organisms in them that blatently allowed they to DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS....they word would spread pretty far and wide and you wouldn't see comments like Han's "only luck" comment. So many scientific papers would be written on the midichlorians and how they allow the laws of physics to be defied. ...do you see what i'm saying? The whole OT is based on a mystical force, not a scientific one.

[xenduck]

just a couple quick thoughts, i got more to follow if no one is to bored with this topic. but i gotta hurry (im on break at work)

motti doesnt know what hes talkin about, niether does han. both get negative reactions from the force-wielders in the room. the force is not a religion. i like the definition of jedi as a club for midichlorian havers. jedi couldnt possible find other jedi young enough for training if they had to wait for their powers to manifest themselves. sure there'd be scientific papers and everyone would read them, until the empire came along and tried to wipe out all evidence of jedi. anakin as a kid new about jedi and laserswords, but luke had never even heard of the force. so that demonstrates the level of information control the empire had and that would be absolutly necessary to a dictatorship.
and if jedi can sense other jedi why didnt luke know yoda was a jedi? why couldnt vader find ben or yoda? why didnt the emperor sense luke on endor? why didnt vader know leia was his daughter?
the force is strong with the skywalkers. fine. but that means, without a doubt, that the force descriminates between indiviuals; but on what grounds? midichlorians!!!