[Mnesymone]

It was blind luck, and Deus Ex Machina that guided Anakin onto the trade federation ship.

Mitochondria... oh I'm sorry, midichlorians had nothing to do with it.

"though one could ask, did luke, in fact, move the rock, or did the rock move the universe? "

Well you could - but you could ask if midichlorians do or do not suck by the same token.

[barend]

you must have eyes to percieve light, just as you must have midichlorians to percieve the force. you must also have a will to interact with the force. since the rock (pressumably) has niether perception nor will, then the question of its midichlorian count is entirely irrelevent. i cant tell you how many, it could be zero or a billion, what difference does it make? barend, wether your question is practical or rhetorical i dont see its purpose.

i like to compare the force to space-time, in that, no matter where/when you are, you are in it and a part of it. yoda is trying to tell luke that he need not lift his hand to touch the rock becuase they are both a part of the force, they are already touching. luke can percieve the force, he has a strong will to direct the force, the rock has niether. therefore, it is luke who moves the rock rather than the rock moving him. though one could ask, did luke, in fact, move the rock, or did the rock move the universe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if MCs are so fundimentally inherent. "as eyes with which to see" then they are too far in the background to mention.

it's not like people star talking about how the only reason people don't pass through the wall they're leaning on is because, despite the multitude of space between sub atomic particles there is an ioninc charge that prevents electron boundaries to cross, thus forming what we consider to be solid even though in reality we are more like an incredibly thin gas and that all "solid" matter is neglagible in spacial quantity.


but for some reason they don't....


that whole yoda speech negates the very basis of the concept of MCs.

if you like them so much, then you better write into lucas and tell him to delet the yoda scene from ESB.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Maybe we can write to Lucas, and tell him to recircumsize himself with a butter knife.

[xenduck]

despondent, mnesymone, i truly have no clue what your point is. i guess i didnt make my point clear. i was saying that yoda's speech in ESB in NO way contradicts anything we know about anything in the star wars universe. explain to me exactly what the problem is here.

barend, what do you mean in the background? how does yoda discredit MCs? are you saying that MCs are too common and complicated to discuss regularily? if so, isnt that evidence of why we hear no more about them? i really dont get it.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Nice try, Xenduck. We can see through your masks. We know your true colors. Maybe. I don't know. Do we? I like Yoda. And I like cheese. Do you like that stuff?

BTW: They are saying that medichlorians are dumb. That's what this thread is all about, I guess. Yoda's reference to the force is in no way something that can be broken down scientifically like the PT made it.

[barend]

yoda suggests a more mystical existance of the force.

MCs are redundant. they serve no purpose.

then you guys say they are important.

then i say if they are so important why are they so inadequatley explored.

then you guys say, because they're not important enough.

then i say, then why bring them up.

then you guys say, what's your problem.

do see where this fell apart.

my argument is solid. (unlike the MC concept)

[Failureboy2]

Xenduck, the contradiction is one of concept and imagery.

Yoda's speech in ESB implies that the Force is this thing that you just sense, and can learn to control/use. We, the audience, imagine that whenever someone uses the force they have successfully tapped into this mysterious power. This idea happens to be reinforced throughout the OT (various non-Jedi characters saying, "May the Force be with you" and so forth).

Then we come to The Phantom Menace, where Quigon's speech to Anakin defines the Force as this relationship you develop with microscopic organisms in your body. Based on that scene, we can deduce that for the rest of his life, whenever Anakin/Vader uses the Force somewhere in the back of his head he's imagining all these little friends in his bloodstream helping him out. How likely is Anakin to say, "May the Force be with you" when he knows that it really comes down to how many MCs the person has in their blood?

Put another way: you can wish me all the luck in the world when I'm at the plate against Roger Clemens, but there's no way hell I'm going to hit a homerun; I don't physically have what it takes and we both know it.

Star Wars now has two different concepts of the Force. One concept is that we can all use it - the other is that our blood-type limits how strong we can be. It's a biological phenomenom versus a spiritual one, and I like the the spiritual phenomenon better. So do most people.

[diligent_d]

Bottom line - he should have kept the workings of the Force a secret. It didn't do any good introducing the midi's, so why bother doing it in the first place?

[xenduck]

every living thing has midichlorians. the size of your body has absolutely nothing to do with the concentration of your midichlorians. this is FIRMLY established in TPM.

the rest is speculation:

if every life form has midichlorians, then every life form can potentially hear/feel/wield the force. the lower your count, the harder you train. not eveyone can, or will be, trained. no one said the force was fair. saying "may the force be with you" is not a way of saying the force will lead, guide, and protect you. it means that your will and the will of the force should be attuned, you should help each other to achieve mutual objectives. your actions can be done with the knowledge that they are in accordance with something far, far greater than yourself.
the sith never say, "may the force be with you." becuase they know the the force is not with them. they are manipulating the force to their own base ends; and they are weaker for it.
midichlorians do not exclude anyone from using the force, it is only the jedi who require a set of criteria be met before joining their club (with good reason).

[Devout Catalyst]

Rather than futilely trying to dispute the non-necessity of midichlorians, especially among those who will go to any length to explain them, I will just sum up the two major camps of Star Wars fans as I see them.

The first camp, to which I belong, likes the simplicity and minimalism of the original SW universe. There are few shades of gray in this universe. Good is good, evil is evil, the Force simply exists. Little of this is questioned.

So, this first camp takes Occam's Razor to any discussion of what makes the Force behave the way it does. Anything that complicates such a neat and simple notion as the Force is just seen as an intrusion. Not to mention that a concept such as midichlorians begs the question, "Well, where do the midichlorians come from, then?" If midichlorians are necessary to explain the Force, then naturally something else might explain the midichlorians, and on and on.

The second camp of Star Wars fans sees anything that George Lucas dreams up as canon. If Lucas included it, he must have done so for a good reason...a logical reason. There are no Lucasian accidents, according to this camp. Every piece of the story fits, however roundabout.

So, for those of us in the first camp, midichlorians wreak havoc with our paradigm. And for those in the second camp, this position is indefensible, because their paradigm aligns with Lucas's paradigm.

I just don't see any possible resolution to this conflict. We've picked our sides already.

[xenduck]

im not in either camp. incidently occam is exactly who i had in mind. the simplest answer must be true. the thing is, niether of your 'camps' seem to be asking questions, only passing judgment.

[Devout Catalyst]

im not in either camp. incidently occam is exactly who i had in mind. the simplest answer must be true. the thing is, niether of your 'camps' seem to be asking questions, only passing judgment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There may very well be more than two camps; it was a simplification, obviously. But in very basic terms, that sums up the arguments in this thread.

As for passing judgment instead of asking questions...well, first, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Second, everyone is passing judgment, all the time. I don't see why movie audiences should be any different. I feel no great need to remain neutral as a movie watcher. If I think a concept is stupid, I don't feel guilty for being opinionated. If I love another concept, than I don't feel I should have to rethink it in a negative light.

I don't have any questions about how the Force works. Never had. It just does, and in certain ways. Therefore, I don't feel the need to have questions answered that I didn't even ask.

[barend]

I’m not in this debate as a star wars fan.

I’m here as a fan of film, logic, storytelling, and consistency.

Don’t release a story until it's finished. If you’re going to come back in 20 years and change it, then I don't want to hear it until it’s ready...

If you decide to use eastern religion to base a mystical group of super warriors of futuristic samurai warlocks... a boring and shallow tangent-concept is both redundant, counter-productive, and distracting in it's imposed suggested complexity of which it has none!!!

Perhaps those of you here should print out what I have written on the matter and go on a holy pilgrimage to skywalker ranch for your answers.

as a cynical, and logically scrutinizing movie buff... my arguments are allowed to delve deeply into speculation as the lack of exploration into this group dividing issue has warranted it. But no defence should be based on speculation or this becomes a philosophical debate about something that has been absolved of its philosophical nature...

And that's just a waste of time.

So... those of you who wish to continue debating the subject need to procure an official statement, before proceedings on this can continue!

...

[Failureboy2]

Barend, if your last post ends this debate, that would be cool.

[xenduck]

barend, your right, we can go back and forth, up and down, but in the end none of us can know what george was really thinking when he introduced midichlorians. if thats the end of the debate...so be it.