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Final Countdown Star Wars thus far

#16 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 10 April 2005 - 10:13 PM

We saw Darth choke a guy with the force in the original, to make him shut up when he was talking shit about the force. (THAT had a point; "Do you belive in it now?...") Let's have him do the same thing TWICE in this movie, and it doesn't have to have a point this time.

So it was a running gag.

Funny post, Azerty. I don't agree with some of it but it's fair and enjoyable to poke fun at something so familiar from time to time.

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Posted 10 April 2005 - 10:33 PM

Good post, azerty.
Just out of curiousity - what kind of stars-out-of-five rating would you have given it - that's what I'm trying to get going with this topic.

I can see your points there - they are on a bit of a microscopic level; I kind of prefer an overall review of the movie for a star-out-of-five review rather than a scene-by-scene deconstruction - but still fair points.

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 05:45 PM

I don't know what kind of score to give Empire. It is definitely fun to watch, but it isn't Star Wars. Its better than Jedi, and far better than Clones, which is so bad as to be nearly unwatchable, but there is no way that it is better than the original!

Civ2 thinks I am too critical, and that there is no way that I could like the original Star Wars, but that isn't true. I can only think of a single possible flaw in the whole movie, and that is right at the beginning. Why does Leia take a side trip to Tatooine to pick up Obi wan right after she intercepts the Death Star Plans? Best to get them somewhere safe fast, and get Obi Wan tomorrow. But there are a hundred reasons why it could make sense, so it doesn't bother me. It is true to its own internal logic, just like Crouching Tiger, Watership Down, or any sports movie where the underfunded little team kicks ass and wins the championship against all odds. All that kind of thing is totally believable, but Empire just has one too many silly things in it that taint the Star Wars atmosphere for me.

In keeping with my theory that sequels in an episodic saga should follow each other quickly in time, and also have individual climaxes that wrap up their own story, here is how the movie that precedes Star Wars should end: Those rebel spies have benn trying to get plans to the Death Star, and have been having lots of adventures and close scrapes along the way. In the end, they manage to beam the plans to a ship waiting in orbit, thus foiling their enemies and they think that they have just saved the day. It tells it's own adventure, with the goal achieved, while simultaneously leading into the next film, (Star Wars).

The big question for me is where to put Phantom Menacein all this. I don't hate it like the rest of you. Being episode one, it should be fairly low key, and I am not irritated that most of the characters aren't the same ones in the later episodes. I actually like teenage Obi wan, and I didn't hate the idea of a very young Anakin, and adding Qui Gon was an attempt to expand the Star Wars Universe, (instead of having everything revolve around the same two or three planets and have everybody related to each other) Sure midichlorians are unnecesary, and Threepio was stupid, etc, but I thought the tone was more Star Wars than either of the two previous movies. It wasn't anything like Star Wars - it was it's own movie and I mostly believed it. But it felt similar to Star Wars.

I was actually glad that there was no young Solo, Leia, Own, Beru, Wedge, and that at no time did it try and tell me things I already knew about. (Yoda instructing Obi Wan, etc, and other boring points of information that most fans want to see, just so they can put a tick on their checklists, "yes, its all CONNECTING, in the most predictable way possible...") So Obi Wan told Luke that Yoda instrcted him, but now we see him off working with Qui Gon. Oh my God, that is just too confusing! Maybe you think the ghost on Hoth should have said "This chap Qui Gon was my master when I was a jedi apprentice, but he's dead now, so I don't know why I brought him up, but there is this OTHER guy, Yoda, and he taught me when I was a nipper, and it happens that he is alive... Are you following me Luke?"

That is what boring "extended universe fiction" is for; being lame and predictable. "Bothans must be masters of disguise, because of a sentence I heard mentioning them once in Return of the Jedi..." "I want more Wedge, because of all the anonymous cannon fodder pilots, I at least I know his name..."

Phantom Menace shows us a couple of real Jedi Knights in action for the first time, (even one of those aliens remarks "have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before?... we will not survive this!"). It introduces Darth Vader when he was a totally un corrupted kid and sets him on the road to Jedi-dom. In the end, the peaceful planet is saved from something or other, and as an aside, the disgusting and inferior Frog people are accepted as equals by the humans. Qui Gon, (the last old style Jedi, and the only character in the entire film to see any value in the worthless Jar Jar) is killed, thus symbolising the beginning of the end of the old republic. Palpatine is just rising to power in an underhanded way. And even though the the film ends with most loose ends tied up. there is still the lingering threat that things have begun to slide downhill.

End of chapter one, the characters are introduced, they areplaced on the board, let the story build.... Too bad Clones jumped ahead, waddled in circles and wasted 2 hours of story time with mind numbing boredom and repetitive rubbish.

This post has been edited by azerty: 11 April 2005 - 05:48 PM


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Posted 11 April 2005 - 06:02 PM

That was actually a surprisingly good point in favour of Episode I...

In fact - I find that from a distance episode I is quite good...

can't quite figure your style here - since you went very scene-by-scene micro for Empire but very overall theme for Ep I.

I just couldn't get my head around the teenage Obi-Wan, largely because I loved Alec Guiness's performance so much - and if we are to believe that Ep I was 40 years before Star Wars than that would make Obi-Wan in Star Wars less than sixty...

I had pictured the Anakin and Obi-Wan of the prequels rather differently to how they came up - Obi-Wan should have been, to me, at least - a knocking-on-forty stern-faced Jedi Knight, while Anakin should have been a mid-twenties fighter pilot.

But even from a distance Ep II is crap - I'm not sure as to why I gave it two-and-a-half... There seems to be a better cause and effect relationship between scenes save on the Anakin storyline, which is still damnably feeble. So, as a note to readers - my two and a half for Clones is more of a two and a quarter rounded up.

#20 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 08:53 PM

Logic flaws
Why does Vader attempt to search an entire galaxy with those probe droids? It would take a thousand years for a thousand probe droid to find Bin Laden on Earth, so why are we asked to believe a galaxy can be searched this way and succeed?

who says it has to be a galaxy. they're searching abandoned desolate worlds like hoth. maybe just within proximity of yavin system or something. Honestly it doesn't have to be explained. Look, this isn't a weak point at all b/c its more believable than baby anakin accidentally destroying a droid controller ship.

Why can't Luke pick up any life on Hoth when a huge beast is standing an arm's length away from him?

not a big deal either. this one was taking care of already. it doesn't glare at you at all like PT probs. The idea that a stupid sensor can't pick up a life form is more believable than a race of aliens who are immune to mind tricks like watto.

Why does Luke not stay in the cave until morning, like any cub scout should know? (He is from a desert planet, too, he should know about survival techniques).

Yeah, its a dumb move. But Luke clearly isn't thinking correctly and i suppose that if i just almost got eaten in a cave i'd run too. Its believable that someone would make that kind of mistake. This poor decision makes more sense then electing Jar Jar general, however.

How does the fact that Threepio cannot understand the probe droid mean that it HAS to be an imperial droid?

He says that it could be an imperial code. Dodonna thinks its better to be safe than sorry.

Where should admiral Ozzel have come out of hyperspace, if not close to the system? Any further away wouldn't make any sense.

This one was taken care of already. I won't pretend to have studied galactic naval strategy, but Vader basically says that they should have dropped in outside the rebel sensors and staged a suprise attack so they couldn't raise the shield. I believe him.

Why are harpoons and tow cables (which the speeders just "happen to have on board") the ONLY way of stopping the walkers. Especially when the rebels have an ion cannon, and prove that it can shoot down a star destroyer with a single shot!

Another one that's easy to work around. For whatever reason they only have one ion cannon that's pointing up. Its a less glaring problem than the assassin not shooting Obi Wan in the frickin FACE.

Why do 2 Star destroyers crash into each other while chasing the Falcon. Could they not see through the windows that they were on a collision course? (Even if
Solo hadn't pulled that maneuver, they still would have been on a colission course.)

Ok, you got me there...i'll admit. It doesn't make Han out to be the MAN though.

Why, even after Threepio tells Solo EXACTLY what is wrong with the Hyperdrive engine, does Solo not just fix the problem instead of endangering everybody's
lives by his incompetance with engines? He should know what's up - he made a few "special modifications himself"!

When i know my brake are gone on my car, doesn't mean i can fix it myself. He needed a real shop to do that for him.

Luke wants to go to Dagobah, but doesn't bother to tell anybody. Why does Luke disappear for an unspecified length of time for his own personal business without
telling ANYONE what he intends to do? Then, he charges in at full speed through zero visibility with "all the scopes dead" towards an unknown planet, and crashes
in a lake. X-Wings can hover, can't they? (They could on Yavin anyway). Luke is a pilot, he should know better.

He's also a dumb kid who makes bad decisions. It works, if you ask me.

The Falcon lands on an asteroid in the stomach of a giant worm, OK. But that is no kind of believable digestive system. Mynocks even live in there permantly! A
creature that big would not find enough food to live on on a barren rock. How can Chewie and Solo walk around in space, in a worm's stomach without space suits?

I don't see a problem here. Leads you to believe that it has to eat SOMETHING pretty damn big though. It makes the audience say wow. I liked that scene.

Why does Vader decide that the best way of getting Luke involve capturing a few random rebels (which luckily happen to be our heroes) and torturing them so that
Luke will possibly feel it across the galaxy, and then possibly come BY HIMSELF to rescue them, and thus be easily captured?

This one was answered already.

Why does Chewie have all those tools and a broken droid with him in the prison cell? What kind of torture session is that supposed to be?

Aparently they just tortured han

Why does Vader want to use carbonite to transport Luke to the emperor? If Lando didn't point out to him that it probably won't work, he might have accidently killed Luke right in that pit, and then he would have been in trouble.

According to KOTOR, the emperor doesn't care if he lives or dies. He at most would like a more powerful apprentice, but less powerful than himself.

This one explains itself. Luke is to powerful and unwilling to be brought forcefully to the emperor. He has to either go willingly or be contrained in a way even a jedi can't get out of. Lucas missed an awesome opportunity for a similar situation to appear in the PT showing you what happens if you just try to cuff a jedi.

Why, at the end of the film when the heroes are all escaping in the Falcon, being chased by tie fighters and star destroyers, does Artoo make an offhand comment that he KNOWS that the Hyperdrive motor has been deactivated (the city computer told him so), but doesn't think it important to fix this BIG problem, but instead concentrates on welding Threepio's foot?

R2 seems to be a little ADD once in awhile. He has to be told what to do.

These are just logic flaws that I have chosen which are spaced out evenly throughout the movie, and there are plenty more if you look for yourself.
* * * * * * * *
Characters flaws
Also, the characters are all boringly static. Lando contributes nothing that Solo didn't already give us. A scoundrel with a heart of gold. He couldn't decide what to do, but in the end chose the right thing. Seen it all before...

And we saw Boba Fett before too. Lando's character did its job though. I agree it would have been nice to differentiate him a little more. It did contrast the new solo with the old solo lifestyle. btw, lando should have died in ROTJ.

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 01:05 AM

QUOTE (Just another wretched fan @ Apr 11 2005, 08:53 PM)
R2 seems to be a little ADD once in awhile. He has to be told what to do.

yeah... that little metal bastard is always trying sell you something.

#22 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 03:15 AM

So unlike your wonderful avatar.

"Yeah well I'll get my own forum - with hookers. And blackjack. In fact stuff the forum"

Az. Your points are fine points - but they seem to be, predominantly, minor nitpicks - or things that you go "that don't feel right" rather than "shoddy film"... I'm also wondering what you liked about Empire too - and also what rating you'd give Menace - seeing as you had a poke at that too.

Edit - off-topic, I just realised the simple genius behind Despondent's "it was a running gag" - I've heard so many bad puns I'd almost forgotten what a good pun was like.

This post has been edited by Mnesymone: 12 April 2005 - 03:17 AM


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