[civilian_number_two]

I for one would never forgive Vader, or the Emperor, or Obi-Wan, or Yoda for the horrors they inflicted on the galaxy. That one died of old age burns me up; at least the rest got to kill one another like the sick elitist bastards they were. I think it's remarkable only one of them ended up in Jedi hell.

I think Luke should be sainted. He took those bad apples and made sweet cider.

PS: Hoff: Good topic.

[J m HofMarN]

I for one would never forgive Vader, or the Emperor, or Obi-Wan, or Yoda for the horrors they inflicted on the galaxy. That one died of old age burns me up; at least the rest got to kill one another like the sick elitist bastards they were. I think it's remarkable only one of them ended up in Jedi hell.

Civ, don't hold the PT against them, it wasn't their choice. And thanks, I thought it was a good question to ask since Luke would be in a very interesting situation.

[Helena]

The PT annoys me because it really only works if you assume that everyone involved in the Jedi and the Republic is a complete moron. The Dark Side, as portrayed in the OT, is a bit different - as far as I can see, it's a bit like a drug addiction. Drawing on the Dark Side brings you great power, quickly and easily - but it gradually takes over your mind, turning you into a psychopath and a megalomaniac. If you want to free yourself you have to actively reject it, like going 'cold turkey' with a heroin addiction.

I think the Dark Side can only be understood in this context. Yes, it makes people commit terrible crimes, but the point is that they're not exactly themselves in the first place - they're being controlled by an external force, like Boromir in The Lord of the Rings. On the other hand, it's their choice to 'give in' to the Dark Side in the first place, so if they truly regret their actions and want to 'redeem' themselves they're going to have to make some major sacrifices. I think Vader giving up his life is entirely fitting, under the circumstances - whilst it could be seen as the coward's way out, helping him to avoid facing the consequences of his actions, I doubt that anything else he could do would be enough to convince people that he truly regretted the crimes he had committed.

Forgiving Yoda or Obi-Wan is a different matter. Yes, in the PT they come off as idiots who should never have let Anakin near the Order in the first place, but this is solely due to Lucas's incompetent writing. If Anakin had originally been a genuinely good person, as he was described in the OT, it would be understandable that they accepted him as a Jedi to start with - even if this ultimately turned out to be a bad decision. But as it is, I can only feel that they got exactly what was coming to them.

[barend]

no one else saw the ghosts....

it would have been our little secret... and i would have been emporer...
i would make necromancy a corporal cime... then no one would admit to hearing vader, yoda, or ben spill the beans on the foundations of my new glorious empire...

bwa ha ha ha hahah haha haha ha ah hahaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa a a a a!!!!

[Despondent]

It would have been meaningful if the ghosts were stacked on each other's shoulders like a totem pole.

[Darth Player]

THe PT screws up things in another fundamental way, that a lot of people would know that Anakin SKYWALKER became Darth Vader, and in effect, during the rise of the hated EMPIRE, all the other SKYWALKERS wouldn't stand a strong chance at survival, even if on a remote s-hole like Tattooine. Thw Wookies alone could undertake a mission to kidnap the remaining Skywalkers and give an ultimatum to Vader/the Empire, free us and leave us alone or they pay the price. Not to mention the fact that tey have to have some kind of monetary value hostage-wise, and they're on a planet with the head of the intergalactic crime syndicate and the bounty hunters like to hang out at his crib, an afternoons hop across the dune to pick them up could get you some good headway with the Jabba man, not to mention Jabba's ability to blackmail the Empire with them or cut a deal with them. Same problem with Ben Kenoki. If Solo commanded a small fortune for stiffing Jabba, think what one of the last Jedi could get from the Emperor or Vader encased in carbonite, especially when local hicks like Uncle Owen and even Luke know about Kenobi being around Tattooine somewhere. Damn you Lucas, for F-ing up the OT as well.

I'm sure Luke must have had to say something because after the Ewok band got tired and the Rebels got exhausted from just damcing, they'd ask him where the hell he's been while they were all in the sh*t. Then there would be questions as to whether the Emperor was truly aboard the Death Star II (recall the rumors of someone like Hitler escaping the bunker and possibly being alive, people couldn't rest until a mass murderer was tracked down and they knew for sure he wasn't alive). The Rebellion, it was eluded to, had a pretty good military intelligence unit/clandestine ops, so they would have interrogated Luke at some point. They stole the Death Star plans, procured weaponry to combat the Empire, secured a new alliance with the Mon Calarmi to deal the final blow to the Empire.

Burning the redeemed Anakin Skywalker in the Vader suit doesn't make a lot of sense either, maybe a side by sice burning would be more appropriate as he freed himself of the Vader grasp by his final acion in killing the Emperor.

[Revan-47]

according to the EU didnt the Emporer come back as a force ghost and then luke went undercover as a sith to overthrow him?

[Darth Player]

according to the EU didnt the Emporer come back as a force ghost and then luke went undercover as a sith to overthrow him?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I seem to recll via one of the EU comics about the clone Emperor which is odd because it implies that his mastery of the dark side can be passed on easily from original sentient being to clone with no problems, unless the secrets of the dark side are scrawled on the back of a cocktail napkin that's passed on in an envelope saying "Only my clone should open this..."

I liked Zahn's approach to the Emperor as Leia is passing by the space occupied by the now destroyed Death Star II and she feels the dark side via the Emperor's spirit giving a "Die Die Die" feeling.

[diligent_d]

Ya that was in the Darkhorse Comics (which were amazing actually - see the Battle Of Mon Calamari) with amazing art by Cam Kennedy. Basically, yes The Emperor clones himself into new bodies because the Darkside of the Force basically decays his body at a faster rate. Which is what they should have had in ROTS (not the bloody lame burnt face explanation).

To give away the story, Luke joins the Darkside in order to infiltrate the Emperor's operations and then uses his new position of power to disrupt his plans. Anyhow the first 3 issues were good, the last one sucked. The Emperor becomes a force storm/hurricane-like entity that takes a out a massive chunk of the Rebel fleet before he is defeated in what was the most rushed ending I've ever seen (situation resolved in 1 1/2 pages or so).

So ya I would recommend the Trade Paperback - it really is a great read save for that last issue.

[Darth Player]

I think you may have inadvertently hit on yet another inconsistency in ROTS and ROTJ, that being, why the Emperor doesn't go through another aging cycle when he is zapping Luke with the Dark Side lightening. Maybe the Mace Windu lightsaber use and his own power as a stronger Jedi may have had something to do with it, but then again it isn't explained at all. By the time he and Yoda tangle, its like they're throwing a softball around with the effect it has on them both in the end. Maybe Lucas took story shortcut lessons from the Dark Horse team.

A friend lent me the Dark Horse title a while ago and I thought it was alright. Keeping clone bodies does make sense as there would be a logical reason since he uses a clone army, maybe it takes a hundred or a thousand regular clones made to make a small handful that are of good use for the Emperor's personal needs, hence the reason for perpetual war, to throw off any chances at getting overthrown by taking the fight to the enemy and using the clones that aren't up to par as cannon fodder. It kinda contradicts what Palpatine said in ROTS, since he's supposedly the only one who knows of the secret for keeping alive, but the movie was so F-ed up it contradists itself a scene or two later.

[Revan-47]

Well palpatine was already really old. Maybe when mace reflected the force lightning back at him like that he was then unable to sustain his younget appearance.

This post has been edited by Revan-47: 14 June 2005 - 08:29 PM