[barend]

paranoid theories is one thing...

stating the obvious and acting like you've blown the lid on a cover up is something else...
(espesially after 400 times)

we know there are bad people in the world... we don't have to bring them up in every conversation we have.
we're just talking about some fucking movies here...

can we have a conversation we're the nazis aren't brought up, huh hannibal just once? or is that all you know...?

can't you see the enemy here is you.


christ, it's all just a little too hard for some people. Thrawns statements are purley reactionary... i don't think thrawn is massing together an army to wipe out the non-whites... so just calm down...

when you accuse everyone of being a nazi, eventually someone will just turn around and make the statement you wanted to hear all along...

pulling out the race card every five minutes makes normal people into racists.

hannibal, you will make nazis of more people then GL ever will...
i hope you understand your overactive paranoia will lead to that...

[Slade]

It's not fair to yell at Hannibal for pointing out how absurd he thinks the fact that Vader gets off scot free at the end of Return of the Jedi. What sort of metaphysical justice is it where a man is at the hands of the deaths of millions of innocents and then is immediately forgiven upon his death with no atonement for his crimes? I think we're overreacting due to a bit of bias against Hannibal in this case. All he's saying is that the actions of Vader coincide with points in fascist ideology. Yeah, Hannibal has posted lengthy articles on how it was deliberate and all, but he didn't mention that here, and then you jumped on him and attacked him for past actions. People are allowed to hate the original trilogy as much as the prequels.

I mean, at least point out that Hannibal is being very caustic and offensive in putting forth his ideas, don't just discount his message because it's from him. That's a dangerous mentality to be stuck in, regardless of who the person being ignored is.

Lets try to keep the angry tirades to a minimum. For the kittens...

[J m HofMarN]

It's not fair to yell at Hannibal for pointing out how absurd he thinks the fact that Vader gets off scot free at the end of Return of the Jedi. What sort of metaphysical justice is it where a man is at the hands of the deaths of millions of innocents and then is immediately forgiven upon his death with no atonement for his crimes?

But Vader does pay for it. He loses his human body, his love, his children, and his free will. In ROTJ you can see how resigned and tormented he is when he talks to Luke on Endor. In the end he nearly loses his son and damns the galaxy to eternal darkness, a darkness in which he could have lived as a GOD. He could have killed Luke and the emperor and there would have been noone to oppose him except arguably Leiah.

Now, a normal and good person would be a fool not to take up eternal rule over the galaxy. An evil person who has nothing to lose would be even more foolish. Vader in the end admits that he's wrong and helps to stop what he's created. Since this topic is uberfucked anyhow lets use the nazi reference.

Hitler has beaten Russia and the remnants of the Western Alliance are fleeing. If Hitler survives he owns the world. Now lets acknowledge for the purposes of debate that Fascism is wrong and not liked by most of the world. If Rommel (who, by the way, DID try to kill Hitler) had successfully killed Hitler and thus stopped Germany from winning, than would he still be considered a nazi?

Look at history? There are not a lot of "We love Rommel" Shrines. But he's not universally despised either. Churchill and Roosevelt were the heroes. Rommel was just a (very intelligent) villain who happened to make the right choice and pay for it. Is Rommel a good person? I'm going to say yes. You all are free to argue that point.

People are allowed to hate the original trilogy as much as the prequels.

\

If they do such they are not starwars fans. However people who hate Starwars in general are still tolerated here as long as they don't drag the debate in insane and nonsensical directions constantly.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 28 March 2005 - 01:43 AM

[Slade]

See, now isn't that better than saying "Hannibal, you're a crazy conspiracy nut and I'm not even going to read your posts before I assume what they mean."? He's not dragging the debate into insanity, just mentioning his views here. You all assumed he was and then pulled it down around him.

[J m HofMarN]

We all know Hannibal's views. We agree with a lot of them. It's just the problem of him constantly bringing them up for no good reason. You have to realize that he's been doing much the same thing in the SW forum that he does in the debate forum, only here its ten times less topical. Hannibal was just fishing for someone he could offend. Thrawn was posting relevant stuff in this topic until Hannibal brought up all this junk about nazis. You didn't see thrawn attack Xombie for making a passing comparison. But when someone attacks another persons politics, or makes insane statements about such politics, thats just causing trouble. And doing that in a place that has nothing to do with politics is just plain disruptive.

[HK 47]

See, now isn't that better than saying "Hannibal, you're a crazy conspiracy nut and I'm not even going to read your posts before I assume what they mean."? He's not dragging the debate into insanity, just mentioning his views here. You all assumed he was and then pulled it down around him.

"just mentioning his views" huh? Slade are you really familiar with this guys history on this board? He's a sad joke.

[njamilla]

For the kittens...

Was this a veiled reference to me and my icon, Slade? If it was, them’s fighting words!


If Rommel (who, by the way, DID try to kill Hitler) had successfully killed Hitler and thus stopped Germany from winning, than would he still be considered a nazi?

Was Rommel a member of the Nazi party? A cursory google search indicated that he was NOT!

Get your Germans correct!


(BTW, amused by all of the flaming. I like the fact that everyone is quite good at expressing themselves and that profanity is part of it. Look at me: I can say fuck! fuck! fuck! All without being in context.)

This post has been edited by njamilla: 28 March 2005 - 11:26 AM

[Slade]

Ah... I don't frequent these forums very often I don't even know why I was dragged into this. *shrug*

Edit: I use "for the kittens" in reference to the old cliche adage "Every time you masturbate, God kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens." It's half a joke, half sincere when I say it.

This post has been edited by Slade: 28 March 2005 - 12:02 PM

[Chefelf]

For me it all went bad when i found out that they would include the backstory for Boba Fett in Episode II, that completely pissed me off. It was much better when his backround was unknown, it made him mysterious and interesting, thats what made him so cool, and thats why so many fans liked him coz they could all come up with their own ideas about his past. Him being in the prequals destroyed all that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree 100%. However, I think his insertion into Episode IV was even worse. Boba Fett has no place in the prequels. Not many do. The only OT characters that should be in the prequels (in my opinion) are: Yoda, Anakin, Palpatine, Owen and Beru (at the end of Episode III).

After watching it again last night, I wasn't sure whether I was actually watching a Star Wars movie or Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The thing is that they sloppily combine real actors (who exist using a set of physics standard to our own planet) with CGI characters who do not move in a realistic way. Their movements are fluid and exaggerated. Their faces are too stylized and they emote way too much.

This works just fine in Final Fantasy, The Incredibles, Etc. If you create an entire world where that set of physics exists then it represents an interesting stylized version of reality and I love that. That's what makes CGI movies/cartoons fun and exciting. However, with the current technology (as impressive as it is) you just end up with Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Maybe it's just me but I haven't seen a convincing blend yet.

The final battle in TPM between the Gungans and the droids works okay, because there's no live action interference. As soon as you take the Gungans or the droids and blend them with real actors, it just doesn't seem to work.

[barend]

alright... once and for all.

firstly, i have not flamed anyone!

secondly, redemption is out of reach for no man!!!

it doesn't matter what you've done, there is always a point where you can turn around and stop.

if you are doing evil things, then the sooner you do this.. the better for everone else involved.

that's what redemption is. so maybe Vader didn't live long enough after his redemption to stand trial... the important things is, is that he saw the errors of his way, and did what he could to reverse it.

he killed the emporer. to save his son, and revers what his legacy had become.

try and remember that people don't always become dictators out of sadistic malice. The emporer probably did, but Vader did it because he thought his way was better. He united the galaxy under one rule out of blind loyalty to someone who had been, form his (admitedly) wapred perspective, the only person who supported and believed in his ability.

the emporer flattered him into loyalty.

and yes, that reflects porly on the character in question... and by no means should be acceptable, by it does put things in perspective.

"from a certain point of view"

Vader in some ways thought he was doing the right thing. He would have known that he was choosing some bloody nasty ways of doing it, but would have justified it to himself, out of anger for all the things that went wrong.

the kid was a slave, he lost his mother, the love of his life, and the respect and love of his tutour (as far as he had conviced himself).

i'm not saying he was an angel living a lie, but merly that he had been misguided. his life had not been easy. that's no escuse, but that's all it takes for some people. Vaders biggest problem, is that he was weak. he gave in to the easy and quick path of the alluring dark side.

not to defend lucas at all here... but that was the hole damn point of the OT. Yodas speech in ESB about the Dark Side pretty much covers it.
Luke succeeded where is father failed, or 'slipped'

even vader realized this near the end. "it is too late for me son"

he spends all of ESB trying to be reunited with his son. he may have done horrible things to try and acheive this but he was obsessed with the idea. he may have done evil things, he may have been trying to bring his son into the fold because he believed he would make a powerful ally... but so would have bobba fett!!! he chased his son down out of love.

warped love... i'll give you that.... but he was a pretty fucked up guy!

and in his sons most dire need, where he had to choose between his master and his son, he chose his son.

or had everyone forgotten that.

vaders redemption was the biggest redemption, he didn't undo all the wrongs but who here can say they have fixed all the wrongs they have done...

you think becuase you're good people that that makes up for anything you've done wrong? espessially considering the general argument being pushed here...

Vader saw the errors of his ways, he came through for his son, and regretted everything.

deathbed redemtion is only cheap, to people who do not have forgiveness in their hearts...

so what is worse?
a bad life ended with a metaphysical appology, and last attempt to turn things around?
or the inabilty to ever forgive anyone of anything?

just a thought.


thirdly, slade: "you're all stupid, everyones a nazi, and i'm smarter than you" is not a 'valid point' and will not be taken into consideration as
a. Lucas is not a nazi
b. you're not all morons
c. hannibal is not a genius (no offense, that's not an insult, genius' are rareer than you think)

EDIT: htmling

This post has been edited by barend: 28 March 2005 - 07:45 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Barend- All of those are excellent points, a very good show. I heartily agree with you about Vader. What sort of person you are really decides how you view him. I think that at some point in time Vader was compared to Boromir, who did some pretty nasty stuff but gave his life in the end to help people. I think the thing is that Lucas didn't always intend for Vader to be redeemed so what we really get is, undeniably the best on-screen villain of all time, turning into a hero. I can understand why people wouldn't accept that I guess, but I do.

As for the subject of the post that's a really difficult question. I was excited about the prequels when they first came out. I didnt yet know of the power of Cheflelf.com forums. So I went to see it in theaters with my family. We didnt spend the whole ride home talking excitedly about it. We spent a bit of time in a rather silly made up world, then we stopped paying attention to it as soon as we left.

The world Lucas created in the OT lives for me even today, the characters, the words, the magic of it all. But in that old dodge van while we rode home I scarcely thought of TPM at all. To me, that should have been when I noticed that Star Wars was ill.

[Xombie]

Thrawn,

Your suggestion that Nazism was inappropriate for the Star Wars universe and just right for our world is the stupidest thing that has ever been posted on this forum.

[Xombie]

Hannibal is right to complain about the forum's reaction.

Nothing he has ever written compares to Thrawn's unsolicited adoration of Adolf Hitler and nazism. Star Wars is nothing more than a movie. Someone can love it, hate it, or have the most esoteric theories about its hidden meanings and still be a fine upstanding human being and all around good guy.

Someone who advocates Hitlerism and Nazism in a forum like this is either a true believer or a troll.

If he is a true believer he is either grotesquely ignorant, a moron, evil, or some combination thereof.

To compare anyone who has contributed to this forum in any sort of positive way to this person can only be viewed as an uncivil and unwarranted slap in the face.

[barend]

i don't know why everyone is assuming Thrawn was being completely serious...

i assumed he was joking, personally.
just a reactionary coment to an over-repeated notion of pure absurdity by un unproductive flamer and self-responder.

but if he wasn't then he's got problems...

but this isn't the place for a facism good/bad debate.

I'd like to get back to the redemption argument if we can...

------------------------

and Hofmarn, yes the boromir coment was mine....

"he was a good friend"
excluding the prequels for a moment. they help back up my point in a poor manner, but just sticking to the OT for a second...

everything we're told over the three movies suggests that vader was a good guy who turned bad.

is it so inconceivable that if once good person becomes bad, that they can't make the trip back?

[J m HofMarN]

Xombie- Hannibal was looking to start a fight. If you've read some of his other posts in this forum you'd know that his entire idea of starwars is warped by mad conspiracy theories and that he devotes large amounts of time on this forum to try to politicize starwars. Thrawn is a fascist, yes, but this isn't the debate club. It's a place to discuss starwars.

People's political affiliations should not be beaten out of them here. I'm sure there could be people here posting who worship the devil, but here they are simply fans of Star Wars. And if someone, for no good reasons, continuously slanders their chosen religion without provocation than that person is to blame for forcing a religious debate, not the devil worshipper.

This is of course not to claim that devil worship or fascism are similiar, or even to state that they're both inethical. However Hannibal has constantly brought up subjects like Anti-semitism, racism, nazis, fascism, and homosexuality, all in a forum soley devoted to StarWars. That makes him the guilty party here.