[J m HofMarN]

If anyone hasnt seen this check it out. Parts are a little hard to watch but the small amount of violence is necessary to its validity and the statement of the film is excellent. Considering recent talk of racism I not only think everyone on the forums should watch this film, I think it should be required viewing in public schools.

[Laura]

Considering recent talk of racism I not only think everyone on the forums should watch this film, I think it should be required viewing in public schools.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't, because it WAS required viewing at my school. I mean, my class and I watched it together. It's super-violent and depressing; while it makes a valid point about racism, not everyone will automatically get something out of it.

I mean, different people respond to different things. I think that some people can get a lot out of this film but it's certainly not for everybody. Where one person might see "life-changingly profound," another might see "gratuitous and stomach-churning". It's overlooking the complexity of human learning styles to assume that everyone will be moved by the same stimuli that moved you.

Plus, boys totally like and "get" this movie more than girls. It's a boy movie. The violence, the "hard knocks", the lack of female characters who aren't actively having sex with someone in a given scene... Meh.

No movie should be required viewing at public schools. Episodes of Scientific American Frontiers should, though. That show rocks!!

[J m HofMarN]

Good point, it is kind of a boy movie, but to counter that, girls are smelly, so it's ok =)

Truthfully though I can see where the sex and violence are bad things but in this case I think they're used to add realism to the film, not to carry the film.

[Emu]

I think we're going to watch this in Sociology, it sounds pretty interesting.

[barend]

i haven't seen it, but i think laura brings up a good point about the use of female characters (in a lot of films).

on the other hand...

Good point, it is kind of a boy movie, but to counter that, girls are smelly, so it's ok =)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

JM brings up an interesting point.

[Chyld]

We did try watching it the other month, but dodgy pirated DVDage meant it kept freezing during the prison flashback scene, so I'm stuck as to how it all ends. Hell, from what I've seen it needs a wider showing...

[SimeSublime]

I saw it a few years ago. Excellent movie, with a good ending.

[civilian_number_two]

I thought the main character's change of geart lacked cedibility, in a typically Hollywood way. Also, the tragic ending is corny as hell. Rhe director stupidly tried to take his name off the picture, but at least I know why.

[kdogg]

Yeah, the whole conversion process from racist to non-racist happened kinda suddenly, especially after he had spent most of his life believing one thing. I did like how the main character was intelligent and was able to clearly rationalize his beliefs, even though he was ignorant.

[SimeSublime]

I don't remember it as being sudden. And he didn't belive it his whole life. He started off quite normal, but started slipping due to the influence of his (step?)father and his friends. The entire time he was in prision, which was a couple of years, he was slowly coming around.

[kdogg]

By "sudden", I guess I meant argument-wise rather than time-wise. You're correct in that he wasn't a full-blown racist for his entire life, but he certainly had those beliefs deeply embedded inside him by the time he entered prison. On the contrary, taking someone out of their regular environment and comfort space could, to a certain extent, promote the breaking down of pre-established beliefs.

[civilian_number_two]

I think they dealt fairly realistically with the process whereby his father, a committed racist, instilled in him values and fears. After his father's death, he takes as a father figure a local minor demagogue who has a small army of skin heads that like to come listen to him rant at his gas station. When his mother tries to date again, our hero (Ed Norton) can't take it; his saintly father would spin in his grave when she takes a Jewish man home for dinner. Norton is important in the company of these racists, and so the behaviour is reinforced. A small crime that leads to a larger one sends him to jail. All this, I think, was handed fairly realistically.

In jail, he meets a single black guy who cracks jokes while they do laundry, so he decides that black guys are ok. At the same time, the Nazis inside aren't as nice as the ones he'd known outside, so he decides not to be racist anymore.

I think a less visible, less morality play kind of character conversion would have been more realistic. A lot of guys soften in jail. On the other hand, a more interesting story to me would have been about how he never softened. Then when **spoiler removed**, he could blame the black man, and we could see how the cycle continues without reflection.

I guess I just found the ending a bit too ABC Afterschool Special, you know?

EDIT: removed a spoiler. Sorry folks; wasn't thinking.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 12 February 2005 - 04:28 PM

[Jordan]

""""In jail, he meets a single black guy who cracks jokes while they do laundry, so he decides that black guys are ok. At the same time, the Nazis inside aren't as nice as the ones he'd known outside, so he decides not to be racist anymore."""""

ROFL!!!!!! It's true!