[civilian_number_two]

For the record, helena, STAR TREK was never "serious" science fiction.

It was a morality play.

The new Trek stuff is soap opera based on the morality play.

[DBrennan3333]

A wise man once said that cries of racism were becoming so severe (a witch hunt, in effect) that the burden of proof must be put on the accuser at all times, and the accused must be given a presumption of innocence.

(This was actually said by baseball Hall of Famer Joe Morgan, who's really not a "wise man," but even a broken clock is wise twice a day, right?)

Anyway, I think it's wrong to maniuplate and presume that ANYBODY is racist or sexist or whatever, and I side with the accused almost every time.

Even when Old George Lucas (no relation to Young George Lucas) is the accused!

[Xombie]

You need to look up the word "presume,"DBrennan. Hannibal wasn't "presuming" anything. He was making an argument that Lucas' work was racist and his argument was based on the evidence of the director's own work. I don't fully buy Hannibal's arguments in this regard ( I agree Lucas is a racist but maybe not to the degree Hannibal does) but Hannibal is not making a presumption.
I, on the other hand, "presume" that since you go out of your way to assert there's some "witch hunt" out there against accused racists and since you side with them "almost every time" that YOU probably indeed are a racist.

[HK 47]

I, on the other hand, "presume" that since you go out of your way to assert there's some "witch hunt" out there against accused racists and since you side with them "almost every time" that YOU probably indeed are a racist.

This is exactly why debates like this easily get out of hand. Hannibal is indeed making a presumption and the "evidence" you speak of is circumstantial at best. Let me sum up your argument for you:

1. Person A claims to be against racism and accuses someone of it.
2. Person B doesn't agree, and says that such accusations should not be made lightly.
3. Person A claims that anyone who doesn't agree with point 1. is obviously guilty, person B is a racist.

This is called bullying and is a really cheap and shitty fear tactic of "convincing" your opponents that they are not only wrong, but morally inferior. IMHO, you owe DBrennan an apology.

[Just your average movie goer]

HK-47. I argue with Xombie on a lot of things but I have to say that in this case, he is in the right. And he does not owe an apology to DBrennan.

I read DBrennan's post - and it does sound pretty racist. Maybe he's never met anyone who deserves to accused a racist... but in this lovely world we live in, it's hard to imagine that this would be the case.

Also, I don't think there is a 'witch-hunt' with regards to accusations of racism. Some people are dickheads about it ("Is it because he is black?" is sometimes used in really stupid contexts). However, from what I've seen, there's nothing that amounts to a witch-hunt.

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. If DBrennan would care to provide us with some examples of this, that would help. But there's nothing in the previous post to support this notion.

[Helena]

For the record, helena, STAR TREK was never "serious" science fiction.

It was a morality play.

The new Trek stuff is soap opera based on the morality play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? Because from what I've seen of it, it always seemed like crappy pseudo-sci-fi nonsense which takes itself far, far too seriously. Anyway, I'm getting out of this thread before it turns nasty.

[HK 47]

JYAMG, I interpreted Brennans post in a completely different way. In what way does it "sound" racist? Because he claims that he would himself always give a person the benefit of the doubt before judging them? Especially when it comes to accusations that are repeatedly misused by people (political activists mostly) who wish to discredit their opponents. And for this Brennan is a suspected racist? Come on!
I detest the debating strategy I described in my previous post, "if you do not agree with me you are probably of the same conviction as the person you're defending", hence my strong reaction. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Xombies post gives credence to Brennans theory on witchhunt. He opened his mouth in defence of a suspected racist (Lucas) and was consequently made a suspect himself. Hardly a fair evaluation of his post.

Innocent until proven guilty. Right?

ps. In regard to this threads original question. No Lucas is not a racist. An incompetent idiot who destroys everything that was good with Star Wars sure, but he's no racist.

[Helena]

For the record, I'm with DBrennan and HK. If you want an example of this type of 'witch-hunt', I've seen hundreds of cases where people criticising Israel in any way automatically get accused of 'anti-semitism', and it disgusts me.

[Just your average movie goer]

Alright. That's what I wanted - an example. It could be researched based. It could be anecdotal. But I want examples.

In Japan, I was discriminated against by the police because I was a foreigner. I called them racists and they were. In Australia, there are people who say "Asian people are greedy." and "Aboriginal people are lazy binge drinkers." Other people call these guys racists and they're right to do so.

Now in his post, DBrennan said he sides with the accused "almost every time". Now when I read that, I was bringing my own experience as a reader - which includes the people mentioned above. And so I thought "D'Brennan would side with these guys?"

I don't know for sure though. That's why I said

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. If DBrennan would care to provide us with some examples of this, that would help. But there's nothing in the previous post to support this notion.

Innocent until proven guilty - absolutely right. I was just defending Xombie however, because I felt that it was very easy to interpret DBrennan's post that way.

[barend]

now, i'm putting my foot down once and for all...
(not too anything, i just got tired of sitting that way)

but this whole race thing... I'm over it...
maybe i'm just too inocent (if anyone says naive, i'll stick a rust rail nail in thier eye)... but i don't find this an issue...

i think everyones has just become too sensitive...
i don't care what the directors vision of other races is, as long I don't see mace window picking cotton, i'll be fine.

i mean who cares what races are in the film, and who cares if all aliens in every film or show are based on stereo types of other races... the vulcans are the japanesse, the ferengi are like a nazi interpriation of the jews, the klingons are russians, the cardassians are like the romans... what ever...

i just don't care...

you know why... once and for all why these issues seem like a waste of time to me... i'll tell you why...

because i think 'racial tolerance' is the most offensive term i have ever heard. it really sickens me...
because quite frankly 'race' is not something that should have to be tolerated!!! race is just what people are... like tall or short or male or female, blue eyed or green eyed etc. it's of no consequence at all...

if a director used a race to paint a new one, it just means his imagination isn't as vast as it could be... oh well.

at the end of the day all that really matters is what you do...

i mean racism is just something i cannot get my head around at all...
i'm sorry i just don't get it...

the real danger is people who are in power who suffer from it. or large groups... but a bunch of star wars geeks or star trek nerds are not going to start an anti-japanesse neo nazi death squad cause of the trade federation....

is it really necessary to deconstruct every film made and scrutinize over every frame and sound bite for the hitler code. when you could be tearing them aprt for their shitty writing, trying to lower our standards...

i'm sorry if i seem a little ignorant to anyone here, but honestly i think the whole things a big waste of time...

this area is inconsequencial to the bigger schemes...
i just think there are better things to devote your time to.

don't pop every pimple that comes to the surface... just stop eating greasy food.

awareness is good, and verbal awareness isupport even more... but folks, come on... the whole PC attack anything that moves just makes people more agressive and feel more justified in their beliefs...
someone might make the odd remark about a group, that is really superfical and has no real consequence... and someone jumps on them on the defensive every time they open their mouth, turning them further from liking that group...

i've seen it happen...

and if anyone has a problem with what i just said...
i'm sorry there's no two ways about it... you're a moron.

i like everyone, fuck racism and fuck the people who make racism worse... (not that i'm directly accusing anyone of it, it's just that these topics crop up every five seconds... and i think they're just as dangerous)

[Hannibal]

Finally, a good healthy discussion about the issues, revealing more character and point of view.

Rephrasing my points once again: Aside from my personal "conspiracy theories" as Hofmarn likes to call them, what I read and posted from starwars.com is (either intentional or unintentional) racist. Racist to fictional nonexistent entities that presumably Lucas or his yes-men created.

To me, this concept of making racism a part of the star wars universe a "justified"(as the article says literally) view (of the "cowardly and greedy" Neimodian race) a mighty bit disturbing.

Its clear that the article about the Neimodians is not examining racial issues, but promoting racial bigotry--not of any specific "race"(as people see them on earth) but nonetheless, "racism" itself is being promoted.

I suggested that there is but ONE race, the human race, and George Lucas, though fun for him to illustrate, the viewing of this and other "races" wthin STAR WARS is either intentionally or unintentionally(ignorantly) done and he's a freaking racist for doing this.

I purport that this way-of-thinking-for-fun, if a person be a star wars fan, can lead to viewing people in reality as not only "separate" and "alien" races, but also conjuring broad generalizations about a specific "race" or group.

Maybe, I conjecture, this is the goal of Lucas, or one of his goals. You already know the rest of my opinions on the matter, however I think this link and article speaks for itself. It is indulging in "sci-fi racism" for fun.

Why could this be bad? If Obiwan Kenobi is a hero, an icon, and a role model, perhaps kids (George Lucas' stated target audience--or at least his excuse anyway) might pick up on these behaviors while they are growing a Jedi tail and mullet, and polishing their brwon leather Jedi boots and building their lightsabers.

Perhaps, kids will adopt the same point of view as Lucas, in the way in which he views as different peoples, to be alien races, stereotypes, in which justifications are made to describe depict and slander them by suggesting AN ENTIRE group of people, be they Jews, Blacks, Asians, Arabs, Whites, or whoever or whatever way you want to describe people, can be "cowards" and "greedy."

That my friends, is sinister to me. Thats my opinion, and I have offered my proof for my point.

Thank you for joining in this discussion.

This post has been edited by Hannibal: 30 January 2005 - 01:10 AM

[Hannibal]

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.




racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race [syn: racialism, racial discrimination]

[Xombie]

HK, Here's why I don't believe I owe DBrennan an apology:
First off you mischaracterize the nature both of DBrennan's post and of my response.
DBrennan did not say that accusations of racism should"not be made lightly." Such a statement would have my complete agreement. Racism is a serious charge to be made in a social setting such as this and I agree that it should never be made lightly. DBrennan's claim is quite different. He claims that charges of racism are the equivalent of a "witch hunt" and that he "side(s) with the accused almost every time."
This is, to me, an extraordinary admission. I have however, heard similar arguments before. And have almost always found that they issue forth from the mouths of closet racists. Does that make DBrennan a racist? Absolutely not. I don't have near enough evidence to make such a damning charge. I made no claim that I did.
I said only that I "presumed" that he was one. This presumption is made on the basis of opinions he expressed that I have found to be regularly expressed by closet racists. This is where I start in judging Dbrennan's character. Subsequent posts by him may very well convince me not only of the falseness of my initial impressions but that he is one of the highest character.
Normally, of course, I keep my presumptions to myself but do note that presumption was the heart of DBrennan's point. And please also note that while my presumption of his character is based upon his own admitted opinions, his presumptions about the guilt or nonguilt of accused racists seem to be based on something a baseball player once said.
And, by the way, HK. YOU'RE not agreeing with me on this issue and I'm not presuming YOU of being a racist.

[HK 47]

Xombie, apparently we have different experiences concerning this issue. I have seen time and again the term misused in wildly different debates, and it seemed to me as if you were jumping the gun concerning Brennans post. And I do not think I'm mischaracterizing the gist of the debate.

I said only that I "presumed" that he was one. This presumption is made on the basis of opinions he expressed that I have found to be regularly expressed by closet racists.

But that's just my point, you presume him guilty, by interpreting his post in the most negative light there is. Brennan simply expresses that he would stand on the side of an accused individual because in his experience many such false accusations are made. Brennan does [I]not[/] deserve any such presumptions.

awareness is good, and verbal awareness isupport even more... but folks, come on... the whole PC attack anything that moves just makes people more agressive and feel more justified in their beliefs...

I agree with you all the way Barend. I couldn't have put it better myself. Aggressive PC lobbying just makes the situation worse. It usually promotes the exact opposite of the intended results.

[Xombie]

I "presume" that DBrennan is a closet racist because of his words. He implies that accusations of racism is equivalent to a "witch hunt." Now when someone says something is a "witch hunt," they generally mean one of two things:
1) Innocent people are being accused of something that doesn't exist or is, in reality, unworthy of punishment (Pactmaking with the Devil in the first part and being a member of the communist part for the second)
or
2) Innocent people are being accused of something that is genuinely bad but the accusations are based on nothing but hysteria or societal paranoia. (The Pre School child molestation charges of the 1980s)

I assume the racism witchhunt fits into one of these two paradigms. If we were dealing with child molestation rather than racism, would anyone say "I'm going to side with the accused child molester almost every time"? Possibly, but not many.

So I assume DBrennan has actually taken the first position: Racism either doesn't exist in our society or is a trivial matter. And if this is indeed close to his view it does not mean that he is a racist. I "presume" he is a racist because I've never met this argument coming out of the mouth of a man who wasn't a racist. But then I have new experiences every day.

And yes, HK, I'm sure our life experiences have been different. I grew up and live in the South: a region whose culture and history is built on racism. I'm old enough to remember both Wallaces (unrepentent and repentent). I began school in the beginning of school integration and watched with young eyes the parents of their white children talk in code about "the integrity of neighbohood schools" while everyone knew exactly what they really meant. I've gone to college and seen lilly white sorority and fraternity rows that have gone 100 years without a single black member and then profess that that has nothing to do with race. Oh no, "how dare you accuse ME of racism?" In 2005, nobody uses the word "nigger" in public but everybody knows the code. And part of the code is "They'll just crying racism again."

And one final thing. You accuse me of rushing to prejudge DBrennan as a racist and yet you have no hesitation to accuse me of somehow being part of the "PC" movement. At least I suggested DBrennan might be something that actually exists: there are plenty of proud self-identified racists in the world. I've never met or even heard of a self-identified "politically correct" person in my life. "Politically Correct" is a made up term that means nothing more than "people I politically don't like."

Hey, THERE'S your witch hunt.