[barend]

ahh tah tah tah dah tah it hurts it hurts!!!

[HK 47]

Jariten, if you want to understand where a lot of people on this board come from and why we object so strongly to the PT you should read "Using the Force" by Wil Brooker. It's a very serious study of Star Wars as a cultural phenomenon. There is a chapter called "The Fan Betrayed" which perfectly describes why the fans of the OT has such big problems with the PT. And these feelings are shared by tens of thousands of Star Wars fans worldwide, the Chefelf forum is just a tiny part of all that. I posted a topic on the subject some time ago :

Using the Force

[jariten]

ok, i`ll have a look when I get the chance, thanks.

I do understand where you all are coming from though. all I want to make clear is that I liked, and still like the OT, now I like the PT just as much (more in some aspects, less in others). and i`m sure that you are also aware that there are tens of thousands of fans worldwide who feel like I do. The only thing I really want, I guess, is for people to listen to what i`ve gotta say, and take it seriously. but i suppose thats really what everyone wants. i`m still amazed that these films generate so much enthusiasm and passion, be that through love for the new films or a hatred for them. i rarely, if ever, get the chance to have a decent, even vaguely thought provoking discussion about star wars. thats why i come here. i posted on theforce.net for a while but i cut it out recently because, well...go and look for yourself. "who would win in a fight between Neo and Yoda?" sheesh.

EDIT-

gave it a look. i doubt that book is for me, somehow. read a few of the reviews on Amazon etc.

This post has been edited by jariten: 08 September 2004 - 04:52 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Whoa... they must really be desperate for conversation topics.

[HK 47]

EDIT-
gave it a look. i doubt that book is for me, somehow. read a few of the reviews on Amazon etc.

Really?! Why's that? You are a Star Wars fan aren't you?

[jariten]

yes i am, but from what i`ve read, hes pretty anti-TPM. now, that I dont mind obviously, but in a book that is supposed to be about star wars fans, giving those fans of phantom the quick brush off doesnt strike me as being representative of anything, expect his own personal vendetta against Lucas. Now, like I said i`ve not read it, ive only read a few reviews. did you think it was a balanced account of fan/critical reaction to TPM (i mean the sections that were about TPM obviously), or biased or what? just from reading that extract you posted I think I can guess the general tone, mood and content though. but, you`ve read it, so could you help me out here? in your opinion would a prequel fan be able to enjoy it?

[Just your average movie goer]

It'd be biased obviously but it's just a big matter of rhetoric. Many prequel haters, myself included feel (and please don't take this personally) that you cannot like the prequels and be a true Star Wars fan. There's no point in starting a debate on this however, as it is just a matter of opinion. And I don't think either one of us would change ours. This book is not intended for people like yourself, so it's quite natural that you wouldn't want to read it. That's fair enough.

[Jordan]

I would not argue what constitues a fan.

[HK 47]

yes i am, but from what i`ve read, hes pretty anti-TPM. now, that I dont mind obviously, but in a book that is supposed to be about star wars fans, giving those fans of phantom the quick brush off doesnt strike me as being representative of anything, expect his own personal vendetta against Lucas. Now, like I said i`ve not read it, ive only read a few reviews. did you think it was a balanced account of fan/critical reaction to TPM (i mean the sections that were about TPM obviously), or biased or what? just from reading that extract you posted I think I can guess the general tone, mood and content though. but, you`ve read it, so could you help me out here? in your opinion would a prequel fan be able to enjoy it?

The people who don't like TPM get a bit more space in that particular chapter, but the TPM lovers get their say and it's only one chapter in the book. The author remains neutral on the subject of TPM, some of the people he interviews are not however. The book is really not about the PT. It's about Star Wars culture.

The misinformed reviewer on Amazon (yes, I had a look) exagerrates greatly. It seems to me he has only read the parts about the people not appreciating TPM. The book is, as I said, a neutral analysis of Star Wars fandom. The "general tone" is not biased in any way. The quotes I posted are from the people he interviews in the chapter about the reaction to TPM.

[jariten]

ok then, i`ll give it a go.

[J m HofMarN]

"i`m still amazed that these films generate so much enthusiasm and passion"

The PT has nothing to do with that. If it were titled something like "Galaxy Takeover" and the names of some of the characters were squiggled a little this forum would not exist.

The reason people are angry about the PTs is not because they are atrocities against film. They're not as bad as Deathstalker 2 or Tennessee Buck or Deep Shock, it's just that they derive their undeserved popularity from something great.
It's kind of like the current president. He's a complete moron but he came to power because his father was a conniving, murdering, monstrous, genocidal, drug dealing, scum of the earth, plotting, I've run out of negative adjectives. Anyhow my point is that the PT would not exist in the way it does now without the OT. Lucas never would have gotten funding for these movies if it hadn't been for the starwars legacy he's feeding off of.

I think everyone in this forum would be most pleased if the following changes were implemented.

Anakins Skywalker becomes Annie Piebalker
Obi Wan Kenobi becomes Boba wan falopi
Star Wars becomes Galaxy Takeover
Corruscant becomes Corbindallas (who cares if they rip off the fifth element-shrug-
Tatooine becomes margareene
Storm troopers become clone army (wait that was already done)
light sabers become lazer swords (thats been done too)
The force becomes the midichlorians ( woops thats been accomplished)
Yoda becomes yogurt (wait, that's been done too)
Jedi become Planenose
Sith become soth
Jaba the Hutt becomes big worm man
Boba Fett can stay. Noone cares.

Now once all these changes are implemented there can be as much yippying and yousa pooduing as Lucas can fit in there, noone will care. The worst it will get is a chuckle in the movie discussion forums as it goes on its way straight to video.

[Just your average movie goer]

This is very true. If these films weren't using the name of Star Wars, then I wouldn't care what Lucas did with them. He could have all the gungans and CGI he wants.

[jariten]

i was reffering to all the star wars films, or to star wars as a cultural/media/whatever phenomenom (ok, I know thats not spelt right. my english is deteriorating)

in terms of the `new` elements in the saga, the only thing i really could have done without is the midichorians. everything else enriches the originals in some way, or adds new elements to exisiting characters (most notably Vader and Palpatine). now, these new changes to the originals were always going to be unpopular with a percentage of the existing fanbase who cherish those old movies. if youve got a problem with Lucas messing with these things (however slight it may be) im right there with you. on the other hand, i know why hes doing it. hes trying to preserve these films for the future, which, although you wont like it, is where they belong now. as a 6 film arc, designed to be watched in order. i know that he sat down before episode 1 and envisioned this, worked out who does what from episode 1 to 3 to create a logical and believable continuity with 4-6. if you were to sit down and watch them in sequence, I think it would work. cant comment yet though, as i`ve yet to see Sith or the new OT. i`m exicted about the prospect of both though (the commentaries will be worth the price tag alone)

[Despondent]

So now Carrie Fisher's story is they used *Ace bandages* to secure her bosom? (I'm kidding.)


I can't imagine finding worth in any commentary that carries the flag of Lucas anymore.

[Helena]

in terms of the `new` elements in the saga, the only thing i really could have done without is the midichorians. everything else enriches the originals in some way, or adds new elements to exisiting characters (most notably Vader and Palpatine). now, these new changes to the originals were always going to be unpopular with a percentage of the existing fanbase who cherish those old movies. if youve got a problem with Lucas messing with these things (however slight it may be) im right there with you. on the other hand, i know why hes doing it. hes trying to preserve these films for the future, which, although you wont like it, is where they belong now. as a 6 film arc, designed to be watched in order. i know that he sat down before episode 1 and envisioned this, worked out who does what from episode 1 to 3 to create a logical and believable continuity with 4-6. if you were to sit down and watch them in sequence, I think it would work. cant comment yet though, as i`ve yet to see Sith or the new OT. i`m exicted about the prospect of both though (the commentaries will be worth the price tag alone)

But many of our problems with the Prequels stem from the fact that they don't create a 'logical and believable continuity'. You've got important plot elements (Anakin as the 'Chosen One'; the imbalance in the Force; Boba Fett's background) which are never even hinted at, let alone mentioned, in the OT. You've got characters, and relationships between characters, which are very different from how they were described in the OT (Yoda didn't train Obi-Wan; Anakin was a 9-year-old when Obi first met him; Owen Lars barely knew Anakin). You've got things which are vastly illogical or unlikely (Owen not remembering C-3P0; R2-D2 flying) or just blatant continuity errors (Palpatine describing the Republic as being 1000 years old, whereas Obi-Wan in the OT said it had lasted a thousand generations). And finally, you've got instances where the inconsistencies are so obvious that Lucas is actually changing the OT to fit in with the PT, as with Leia's memories of her mother.

Some of this stuff may be cleared up in RotS to some extent, but there's no way all these issues - which are only a small sample of the continuity problems in the OT - are going to be resolved satisfactorily. This is why us OT fans are so angry with Lucas: we love the original Star Wars films, but it's obvious that Lucas doesn't care enough about them to make prequels that are consistent. If they were consistent, he wouldn't have to make changes to the OT, and he wouldn't need fanboys to dream up wildly unlikely explanations for all the continuity problems (like the idea that Anakin's death somehow brings balance to the Force).