[Helena]

Helena, that's a great point. I had always thought that in prequels there will be a love triangle - Bail Organa, Anakin and "The girl". Bail Organa should have been the "eligible" guy, "nice guy" who by all political connections should have been a perfect match for Padme. Then Anakin comes along, a lovable rascal, who steals the girl by his sheer charm. And Anakin should be this troubled guy, who realises his power and this encourages him to abuse the power he got. But he gets away with it by being a real charmer - sort of equivalent of Han Solo in prequels. And in the end, instead of turning good like Han, he turns nasty, and by that time Padme is pregnant with him, and afraid of him, and flees to Bail, her former love for support. And Bail, being really noble and since the marriage to Anakin is secret , agrees to pretend that thay are married and rises Padme's daughter as her own. Amidala later dies, but nobody know that she in fact never was Bail's wife and has another son.
And Anakin should have never known that he has any children at all. Perhaps thay should have not married, but have an affair, but of course that would do not agree with Lucas's target audience of slightly retarded twelve-year-olds. But I really miss the romance and real chamistry between the characters - I am hopeless romantic, I think....

My own idea was roughly the same, except that Padme did actually marry Organa (an arranged marriage, basically) and Anakin slept with her just before her marriage (screw Lucas' retarded 12-year-old target audience). Luke was spirited away just after birth in case Anakin, who by then had fallen to the Dark Side, ever found out about the children. Organa never realised Leia wasn't his own daughter.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

Sorry, Mike, but not being from US I just do not recognise this actor at all - he is supposed to be in some TV series, right? So I think the whole point of diversity is lost to at least a part of polulation outside US. It is like the rumours that were about before AOTC that N'Sync would be in the film, and I thought , who the hell are N'Sync and what is the significance of this? Anyway, I knew there was something called Bail Organa in the film only after reading the credits. Did he have one line to speak?
This was such a wasted opportunity to make an intelligent connection to OT.

My apologies, madam, for being a narrow minded american!

Jimmy Smits is a fairly well known actor in American movies and TV.

He is most known for his role as Detective Bobby Simone in the cop show NYPD Blue {in which he died}

Here is am IMDB listing on him!

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001751/

[civilian_number_two]

Jesus, Mike, don't apologize.

She can do the "I'm so above pop culture" thing all she likes when we get in to a debate about Plato or the evolution of common law. But this is a discussion of a STAR WARS movie, and claiming not to know an actor who happens to be in it is just ridiculous.

Yes Madam, he's the Spic from "LA LAW" and "NYPD gratuitous bum shots." I'm so above it.

What really calls attention to itself is the pretense of never having heard of N Sync. These guys are not a US-only phenomenon any more than, say, Kylie Minogue is some Australian singer. Sure, I'm too old to know any of their music either, but didn't Justin Timberlake win best Male at the Brits and weren't N Sync a huge world-touring band? Not to mention that I think they all had a turn at Britney Spears. Love em or hate, you can't pretend you never heard of them!

-------------------------

Anyway, love everything you said, MC, about a love triangle. It's just the sort of crazy character interplay that might have save this film that I will admit I am too pretentious ever to watch.

[Madam Corvax]

Jesus, Mike, don't apologize.

She can do the "I'm so above pop culture" thing all she likes when we get in to a debate about Plato or the evolution of common law. But this is a discussion of a STAR WARS movie, and claiming not to know an actor who happens to be in it is just ridiculous.

Yes Madam, he's the Spic from "LA LAW" and "NYPD gratuitous bum shots." I'm so above it.

What really calls attention to itself is the pretense of never having heard of N Sync. These guys are not a US-only phenomenon any more than, say, Kylie Minogue is some Australian singer. Sure, I'm too old to know any of their music either, but didn't Justin Timberlake win best Male at the Brits and weren't N Sync a huge world-touring band? Not to mention that I think they all had a turn at Britney Spears. Love em or hate, you can't pretend you never heard of them!

-------------------------

Anyway, love everything you said, MC, about a love triangle. It's just the sort of crazy character interplay that might have save this film that I will admit I am too pretentious ever to watch.

Firstly - of course Mike should not apologise, and he probably wasn't, just teasing me. And I can say in return, that it should be me apologising for not understanding the US culture and nevertheless daring to voice my opinion in this venerable forum.
Secondly, you really cannot know every actor playing second guard from the left in every SW film, I mean can you?. I was just making a point that the role itself was so underdeveloped that it never occured to me to check the guy's acting credits (which now I did, thanks to Mike).
And I am not above pop culture, I genuinely never heard about N'Sync apart from the Star Wars rumour, guess they were not so popular in my country when they were around.
So, Civilian, be patient with me, honestly, my interest in pop music ended in 1989. I may not know who N'Sync are, but a class of teenagers who I got to teach this year did not know who Sinead O'Connor is. Generation gap, I suppose.

[Just your average movie goer]

Tell you what, I don't hear much about US pop-culture over here in Korea. And I find that you can actually shelter yourself from a lot of pop-culture altogether by not watching the television or doing pointless internet surfing.

I haven't watched television for over a year and I am a lot happier without it.

[Madam Corvax]

Tell you what, I don't hear much about US pop-culture over here in Korea. And I find that you can actually shelter yourself from a lot of pop-culture altogether by not watching the television or doing pointless internet surfing.

I haven't watched television for over a year and I am a lot happier without it.

Wow, thanks JYAMG, now you saved my self respect. I began to think there is something wrong with me for not knowing a boysband!

[Helena]

Jesus, Mike, don't apologize.

She can do the "I'm so above pop culture" thing all she likes when we get in to a debate about Plato or the evolution of common law.  But this is a discussion of a STAR WARS movie, and claiming not to know an actor who happens to be in it is just ridiculous.

Yes Madam, he's the Spic from "LA LAW" and "NYPD gratuitous bum shots."  I'm so above it.

What really calls attention to itself is the pretense of never having heard of N Sync.  These guys are not a US-only phenomenon any more than, say, Kylie Minogue is some Australian singer.  Sure, I'm too old to know any of their music either, but didn't Justin Timberlake win best Male at the Brits and weren't N Sync a huge world-touring band?  Not to mention that I think they all had a turn at Britney Spears.  Love em or hate, you can't pretend you never heard of them!

Sheesh, civ, that was completely uncalled for. I had never heard of Jimmy Smits either before Star Wars, and even now the only thing I know about N'Sync is that they're some kind of band. Is it so hard to believe that some of us simply have no interest in pop music or American crime drama?

[njamilla]

The whole concept of a democratically elected King, Queen, or Prince is not such a far fetched idea. And in terms of international law, the title of a sovereign leader of a country is irrelevant. What is accepted in international organizations like the UN is that the people recognize a sovereign and chose one (or are unable to remove a de facto leader) in any way they please, whether it be through a dynastic mechanism or a popular elective method. A person can be a President, a King, a Pope, Imam, Emperor, or whatever.

Dynasties have historically come into being through force of arms. One family wins a war, usually with the bulk of supporters who impose their will on a minority. What's the technical difference between a bunch of elite aristocrats electing their king and a popular suffrage electing their president or prime minister? If the system works for a nation, a city-state, a village, there's nothing wrong with it. We may have our preferences for a prime minister over a King, but that a non-legal issue.

The rules for monarchical transferance of the crown differs from one country to the next, and while I'm not that familiar with European monarchies, it is my understanding that there have been monarchs that have been elected in the same manner that modern democracies have elected their leaders.

So GL decided on having the Queen elected. If it works for the people of Naboo, why not? A group of 5 men appointed the president of the United States in 2001. Explain that to the rest of the world. Worse has happened in history. What?!? A Sith in charge of the Galactic Senate? Is that any different than a Freemason or a member of the a secret society made up of alums from Yale or a bunch of brown shirts getting an influential governmental post?

Part of the reason GL chooses a monarchical nomenclature in the PT is to evoke a sense of medieval grandeur when royal and imperial courts were the centers of political movement. The opulent costumes reinforce this as well. The starkness of OT starships and clothing reflect a different period of social development in the SW universe.

As for a child-leader like Queen (Senator) Amidala, or a 18-year-old Princess Leia. What a great social statement about women and their posibility for enlightened social service. Again, (and I'll admit I'm a Democrat), is this any different from a president who has run every company he controlled into the ground? (That's G. Bush, if you didn't know.) One of the reasons the old guard in many countries fail to reform is because there aren't enough fresh bloods being infused into the political system. OK, they're not as experienced, not as knowledgeable, not as successful, but that's what advisors are for. There have been many modern democratic campaigns all over the world where the candidate takes advice from recent college graduates. Old age equates with wisdom as much as youth equates with beauty. There's plenty of room for interpretation, and often it's a question of one's point of view.

[njamilla]

then Naboo would be 90% royality.

While not quite at 90%, the Kindom of Saudi Arabia has a huge extended familial system in which there are literally dozens of princes. The posibilities extend dramatically when a monarch is allowed to legally have more than one wife, as is the case in Muslim society.

[barend]

hey, N'Jam nice to read you again!

----------------------------------------

but gee... poor JimmySmits... there are two cool girls who don't know him.

as for N'Sync... It warms my heart to know that at least two girls are NOT swooning for them.

I can't believe how offended/shocked people get when they find america isn't the end all be all apex of global popular culture to everyone!!!

[Just your average movie goer]

Tell you what. That reminds me of an American I worked with last year in Japan. The whole time his mouth was open, these kind of quotes were pouring out -

"In America, this is better..."
"In America, that is better..."
"These are so much better in America..."
"I'm not racist or nothing, but Japanese people...."
"I'm not racist or nothing, but African people are poor because they're stupid..."
"I'm proud of my German heritage. I really think we don't need Asian and Black people. I'm really not interested in them. But I'm not racist or nothing."
"Hitler is a champion. White supremacy, yeah! But I'm not racist or nothing."


Okay, I made up the last bit about Hitler and white supremacy - but the dude wasn't far off. At one point, he brought over a yokel country gal who actually believed that "a woman's job is ta take care of her man". She did all his cooking and cleaning for him until her visa ran out and then she had to go back to the states.

And as soon as that happened, the guy went back as well, unable to take care of himself. We had a big celebratory drink when we found out he had gone.

But anyway, that guy just thought that America was the centre of the universe and everywhere else may as well have not existed.

*Although, in the defence of our American friends on this forum, the aforementioned Americans were from Arkansas, not a real state.



And for the record, I'd never heard of Jimmy Smits either. I have heard of NYPD Blue though (even watched a few episodes) and I've heard of Justin Timberlake, but because of a little stunt with Janet Jackson.....

..... and no, I don't believe that was an innocent accident.

- Movie Goer

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 16 July 2004 - 09:25 PM

[Paladin]

While not quite at 90%, the Kindom of Saudi Arabia has a huge extended familial system in which there are literally dozens of princes. The posibilities extend dramatically when a monarch is allowed to legally have more than one wife, as is the case in Muslim society.

Not only in Saudi Arabia. Over here in the UAE, the ruling Shaikhs also have a lot of kids due to multipule wives. And there are lots of smaller shaikhs around as well... or so I heard. I'm not entirely sure about that.

And as soon as that happened, the guy went back as well, unable to take care of himself. We had a big celebratory drink when we found out he had gone. 

Can't take care of himself? What kind of man is that? My family went on vacation and left me home alone for months on end when I was 14 (and again when I was 16, 18 and 19) and I did all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, etc, etc on my own until they came back. If a lout like me can do it, anyone can!

He sounds like a real mess, too. Reminds me a lot of racist people who always try vainly to hide their racism for some reason. I know, I've seen quite a bit of them!

[Jordan]

So it's ok to elect queens? Forget everything I said~ I'm suprised Civillian did not catch me on that. Are you Civillian in disguise?

[HK 47]

The whole concept of a democratically elected King, Queen, or Prince is not such a far fetched idea. And in terms of international law, the title of a sovereign leader of a country is irrelevant. What is accepted in international organizations like the UN is that the people recognize a sovereign and chose one (or are unable to remove a de facto leader) in any way they please, whether it be through a dynastic mechanism or a popular elective method. A person can be a President, a King, a Pope, Imam, Emperor, or whatever.  (etc.....)

Granted, but the concept of an elected queen in itself is not the problem. The problem is that George mixes concepts in a way that completely tosses suspension of disbelief out the door. And he seems to be doing so on a whim, not by planning an interesting and believable story. Because he needed Padme to be "independent" in episode II suddenly they start talking about terms of office etc. so she can be made a senator. The US constitution pops up and completely destroys any suspension of disbelief. Naboo was an exotic monarchy and there was no talk about electing the queen in TPM.

As for making a great social statement by having a democratically elected child-queen, I'd rather have a great story. No matter how fantastic the universe, George is stretching our suspension of disbelief to the breaking point by doing these things again and again. If only Lucas would have done some research and planning ahead before writing the PT a lot of these problems might been avoided. But we'll never know, cause it's obvious he doesn't give a shit...