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Barend- And it's also possible for a person who was pretty decent throughout their whole life to be considered evil just for a few actions. It's also got to be considered that giving one's life is a tremendously powerful thing. Take Romeo and Juliet for example. The capulets despise Romeo. He's trying to steal their daughter, he's killed their kinsman, and his family is their eternal enemy. But by allowing himself to be killed by their hatred, and doing it in the name of love, he completely changes their views. Now this is a very interesting concept.

Romeo has killed Tybalt, He has gotten Mercutio killed, he has probably in the past done bad things to the Capulets. Yet his worst enemies forgive him after realizing that he was, in the end, a good person.

Then there's also Judas Iscariot. Now he did possibly one of the worst things human beings have ever done. He betrayed a very good man and a friend, without even considering the theological implications. However, look what he did afterwards. He killed himself. Now does that make it ok? No. But the fact that he showed guilt, and displayed that the gold the romans gave him only added to his misery, that sent a message to other people. So in the end he managed to teach others a lesson by showing that he had done wrong.

However Vader did manage to undo the wrong he had created, and moreover he dropped way more than just a bag of gold. He had the entire galaxy in the palm of his hand and he let it go. Those are the actions of a good person. I think that viewing that , if there had been a trial, noone would have pressed charges against Anakin Skywalker, and it would have been an even more pretentious and sickening ending. I'm quite happy with the way ROTJ ended.

at the same time, i think people would have pressed charges.

considering all the people who hate the fact that there was any redemption for him. some people don't by it...

and it's that, that stops some people from turning good when they have a chance.

food for thought.

I think this debate is important to you, Barend, because of your own evil ways, what with torturing small mammals, making people wait for new installments of LOTR, and of course being the cause of cancer. Why, you're practically a one man den of iniquity. I wonder, do you actually consider the idea of redemption?

Ohh Yes of course, how mugs for the camera that was crap. I also forgot to mention the fact that you get to see in Episode II what he really looked like because Boba Fett (supposedly) was just a clone of his father (lame excuse to reveal what Fett looks like) which also destroys the mysteriousness of the character.





Xombie if you are confused or think my post was stupid, then go back and read it again with a better understanding of what i'm trying to say.
Whats wrong with the post?, fascism was not created for galaxy-wide use, it was created for use, firstly on a little continent on a little planet called earth. All the points I made on fascism or Nazism (which to me is different because it applys to Germany and Europe being a member of the NSDAP) does not occur or is isn't reprisented in the SW movies, EXCEPT for the massive control and brutality the Empire uses, but that could apply to any form of government other than fascism. It could apply to Saddam Hussein and his Iraqi dictatorship, or Josef Stalin and his brutal communist reign. But these are things that don't occur to me and I don't get into when I'm watching Star Wars.
Personnaly Xombie I think your just one of those people that has been absorbed with Jewish propaganda and constant messages through the media that anything that is fascist is bad and scary, I think It is the best system, to me it mainly applys to Europe, i'm not too interested with the rest of the world, and like Hofmarn said I am entitled to my own beliefs. Isn't that the foundation of your shitty "Democtratic" system based on, "Freedom of Speech".

Can we perhaps agree to take this political persecution to the debate forums where it can be discussed ad infinitum without bothering the current discussion of SW?

Here is a ten page long thread that Hannibal has already filled with his mindless insanity. In fact the forum owner set it aside so he wouldnt keep invading other threads and taking them over. Please direct all discussion about nazism and fascism not relating to Star Wars to George Lucas, Fascism and Anti-semitish - a manifesto

Hey all! It's time for some statistics!

Number of unique Users in this thread before thrawn's pro-fascist rant: 22

Number of unique users after rant: 10

Number of users who signed in only AFTER rant: 2 (yes, 8)

Number who signed in only to blame Hannibal for thrawn's comments (?) : 1

Number of members who suggested that thrawn was joking: 2

Number of times thrawn confirmed he was not joking: 2

Number of attempts to bring this topic back to STAR WARS: 6

Total number of posts in this thread: 97

Total number of posts from Hannibal in this thread: 9

Number of Hannibal posts comparing Lucas with Nazis: 2

Number of Hannibal replies to subsequent attacks from thrawn: 3

Number of attacks from JmHofMarN against Hannibal blaming Hannibal for ruining this thread: 10

Number of those attacks since Hannibal's most recent post: 9

Number of Hannibal replies to attacks from Hoffmarn: 0


You guys are nuts. The "I hated STAR WARS after JEDI because essentially Lucas asked us all to forgive Hitler/Himmler for the Holocaust" argument has been around your entire adult lives, and has come from the pens of some important film and literary critics. It has been stated here before. I dare say that saying "The moment I decided that STAR WARS sucked came when I was asked to swalow that horse pill" is a legitimate post in this here thread. it's a legitimate criticism of STAR WARS.

Hanibal was ok to say it, it was in character, and it belongs here if nowhere else. There are dozens of posts here after those two, and they greatly outweigh his three followups, one of which is a sentence long. Claims that Hannibal has done anything to derail a thread he has scarcely even particpated in since his simple criticism "outed" thrawn as a Nazi sympathizer and anti-semite far outweigh Hannibal's comments themselves, so pot/kettle, and all that.


Hoff, I can't fathom the depth of your hatred for Hannibal, but let's be honest. This thread went off track when thrawn ignored STAR WARS and went in to a rant about how fascism was good for Germany, and you have dominated it since (by the way, the fascist support is an end-justifies-the-means argument, and a flawed one at that, since clearly fascism was fucking terrible for Germany, and for a lot of Germans - even ignoring the German Jews, can we talk in terms of the long term effect here?). A few guys tried to bring it back to STAR WARS, but here is how it breaks down:

A guy posts about Lucas and STAR WARS and a very popular comparison of Darth Vader with Nazism. This is followed by a tedious "Hitler was a good leader" argument straight out of grade nine, and then the fur starts to fly, and the most openly socialist guy on the board goes out of his way to DEFEND the guy supporting fascism, just so he can attack his chief rival for stuff he said sometime ago. This sacrifice of ideals in order to defeat personal ememies, by the way, is exactly how Stalin came into power.


Anyway, I don't see anything here that I haven't seen before. Just wanted to give my opinion of it. So, uh, carry on.

Hmm, now this "Hitler" you speak of- what movie was he in again?

Or is he in episode 3.

Thanks for the tedious review, Civilian No. 2.

So, my thought is then... would ROTJ been better if Anakin hadn't appeared as a ghost at all at the end? Maybe not have ANY of the ghosts appear, and then we wouldn't have to worry about who went to Force Heaven or Hell... we could just leave that to our own imaginations. At this point, it could be put that once Anakin defeated the evil, there, essentially was no reason for Yoda and Ben to hang around anymore... (and this would've done away with the gawd-awful Haydakin travesty).

Some of you may know my answer to this, some may not. I believe that George Lucas HAD to put Vader in there in heaven at the end, because of his whole worldview. Now, as for taking it out, I really don't think rearranging more scenes is going to make Star Wars any better.

As for the last previous posts, I think all I have to say is this:

Hofmarn betrayed his own beliefs and politics.
All I did orginally was post in response to Xombie, in agreement, with some elaboration.
I did not know Thrawn was a Nazi, I knew he hated Jews(see his statement in Natalie Portman post) which nobody seemed to be offended about.

Now that Thrawn has been embraced by the "revolutionary" and Hannibal remains hated(nothing new there), barend has gone on at length about how gentlemanly this fascist is.

Heheh...aaaaaa

Nazis are supposed to be charismatic.

Who would have guessed that I am not.

Hofmarn has now ressurected my old star wars nazi post, in which I paste a segment from THRAWN's "STORMFRONT" nazi site (this was so many months ago) that nazis feel insulted that some Jews have suggested Star Wars contains Jewish themes. I think this is funny, now they're here on this board, and Hofmarn is defending fascists.

How much do I really need to say? Blind hatred gave rise to Hitler coming to power.
How many inches away from fascism are you I have to ask you...
Left or Right...so many slither their way into fascism...a look at history(as even Dr.Lector has pointed out), and you'll see every religion and every political side had dunked its pinky in the Nazi Party...how many inches away from Fascism are YOU?

None of these tyrades are surprising to me at all.

Hofmarn's siding with the Nazi is not suprising at all.

The question is now...what do you do next? Doesn't look like I've disapeared, and now all that's different is a Nazi is here...some of you find him personable...

Interesting to see how this goes...

You know, Star Wars (ANH that is) had a skein of seriousness running through it, which is one of the things that I liked about it, even as a dumb kid. Even silly things like Threepio running across the battle filled corridor in the beginning of the movie didn't seem stupid, it just seemed to be 'what happened' during the battle. To me, no part of the original strains credibility.

Empire tries to be even more serious than the first film, (perhaps that's why people like it) and if it wasn't for the lame script (not the plot, not the story, but the script itself) it might be almost as good. But the original is still the only movie that stands alone, and for that reason it is separate from the other installments and is unique in the saga. The plot holes in Empire, and the story holes too, detract from the whole thing enough to move it down a notch from the original. I would eleborate, but I vented my spleen on this already in an earlier thread.

However, Jedi does not at all have a serious tone to it, and is basically a disappointing film. Aside from the utterly lame rescue of Solo, the plot is fairly decent: Luke, Dad, and the Emperor on the one side, savage primitives winning a battle in the jungle on the other side, and a big space battle. So why did Lucas feel the need to make the Ewoks ridiculous? Why is the Emperor ridiciulous? Why do the main characters show up in the muppet theatre one by one and act completely ineptly , until Luke finally shows up and sorts it all out in an utterly unconvincing way? The only part of Jabbas palace that was even remotely beleivable and chilling to me was the interrogation robot asking Threepio and Artoo what their functions were. (Too bad that scene was ruined seconds later by having steam come out of holes in a a robot's feet during some kind of torture session.) I personally find it difficult to take Jedi seriously at all..

At what exact moment did it all start to suck? Very early on in the series unfortunately, because for me, sillines and the lack of credibility is a huge negative. Like Indianna Jones and the last crusade - doom was first sensed when the stereotypical red faced fat kid fell of his horse and it basically got worse from there. It was all so damn sill that I could hardly watch without cringing.

Now Phantom, on the other hand, has a slightly more seroius tone to it than Jedi. Liam Neeson and Ewan are more or less believable as characters. They are not silly. (I wonder how Solo's rescue might have gone had either of those two been in charge...) Even in the face of stupidity ( i.e Jar Jar) these too still seem believable. Palpatine also seemed believable, and I found Watto to have some personality too.

Phantom parallels the original in plot too. If I owned any of the DVD's, I would be slightly interested to know how the two movies evolve simultaneously. (Space ship battle, minor characters escape to planet below with secret info, meet helper, enemy after them, go back into space to try and sort things out, etc.) I started this thread, but now I wish I had called it "When did Phantom start to suck".

Some people say the rot set in during the scroll up, but that is pretty unfair really. I once was at a school where a film was being shown; the second it started there was a huge groan, "This is BLACK and WHITE? This sucks!!!" I figure you have to give ANY movie 10 minutes, at least!

Of course, it might all have started during Clones, maybe when What's her name said "My, you've grown..." Is that 10 minutes, or is it much, much less...

Hi guys!!! With the abomination that is Episode III upon is, I thought I should chime in her




That;s kind of like someone at a party saying "that girl was pretty ugly, but I didn;t find her bad looking"

You hated ROTJ, civ. But I respect your viewpoint on it.

When did it it all suck for me???

When I saw the absolute mess that was Episode II.

I loved ROTJ and felt it perfectly capped off an astounding trilogy that was Episodes IV-VI.

Regarding Episode I, I hold the same opinion that I have held for a while regarding that movie:

-A good idea, executed horribly-

Episode II was a bad idea, executed even worse.

The one film you could not mess up with in the Star Wars prequel trilogy was Episode II. Epsisodes I & III, could suck, but not II.

By creating such a horrendous picture in Episode II, Lucas essentially sunk the whole trilogy.

Watching Episode II was like watching every sci-fi movie in the last two decades put into a blender, mixed and then dumped right in front of you.

All you get is a disgusting mix of chopped of ideas and sludge.

... But it had the guy who played Saruman in it...

I think Lucas is really covering his bases. Instead of adding in good writing and depending upon great performances by no-name actors Lucas just dumps billions of dollars on Ewan Macgregor, Christopher Lee, etc and hopes that their skills will carry his films. You know what I think could have saved the Prequels? STEAL ALL OF LUCAS' MONEY. Give him the same budget he had for the OT accounting for inflation.

Jeez, I come back to this forum, and this is the talk going around:

-George Lucas is trying to convince us that the Nazi's should be forgiven???!!! -

Sometimes a sci-fi movie is just a sci-fi movie, guys!!!


What happened to all the witty reparte we used to have on this forum??