[Deucaon]

[Slade]

The following paragraph is spoiler'd to resist further moving off topic.

Congratulations, Deucaon. You have shown you can quote yourself from the same topic just five posts below it! Oh, and yes, clearly, disapproving of foreign invasion, power plays, and blatant lying about it, and by Russia means I endorse the violent authoritarian government Russia is bombing into rubble because it feels like it. With your grasp of logic, I don't understand how you can comprehend the world around you well enough to dress yourself or remember to breathe. Oh, and when your source starts its first sentence off with "...the Israeli-occupied American media are heading the innocent world toward nuclear war." you kind of lose all credibility. OH NOES, TEH JEWZ R CUMING! (Yes, I know all too well that knocking Israel does not mean knocking Jews, but nobody who makes those sorts of ridiculous statements understands that. I was being facetious.)

Georgia sucks for doing fucked up things and being a Tom Clancy Terrorist-Stu, and Russia sucks for using false pretenses to invade countries. The US sucks for being hypocritical about the whole thing. And some people in Georgia, US, suck too. That is some impressive stupidity.

This post has been edited by Slade: 16 August 2008 - 01:27 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Before I officially inaugurate this as a debate let me just say that I have no idea why you feel it necessary to oppose almost anything that anyone else on the forums says. I can not fathom how this topic requires a debate to occur. If this were 20 years ago, the Russians in Georgia would each have a US built stinger missile up their ass, and the US would be cheering. Now that Russia is no longer a communist dictatorship (just a regular dictatorship) you think that everything they do is fine? They back Serbia, you're all for it. They invade Chechnya, you say they had to to keep them from seceding. They help secessionists in Georgia, you say they're great. And it's wonderful that after providing these opinions that are totally not meant to just stir people up but are actually informed political beliefs, you have to consistently resort to wildly biased reports to back them.

As far as I am concerned: Communism = "Enlightened" Slavery.

That's good. So Russia elects a former KGB officer as its president prime minister, and takes the red background out of its flag, and now all of a sudden they're the most freedomtastic country ever.

I support Russia as a matter of principle since Russia didn't start the war nor did it provoke Georgia and the Georgian military tried to sneak attack Russian forces while Putin was in China. Oh and...

Let me get this straight... The Georgian military thought that by "sneak attacking" a tiny Russian peacekeeping force and killing, what, like 100 Russian soldiers, they would SOMEHOW defeat the nation that lost 3 million soldiers in World War 2 and still came out on top? Somehow I can't comprehend that logic. Lenin himself, a former leader of Russia, said that when you don't understand something ,you ask who benefits and there you will find your culprit. Russia stands to gain a lot of land from this, and they have a history of land grabs in the Caucasus, like Chechnya. The evidence is stacked against them.

According to news reports, Russian forces have captured Americans who were with the Georgian troops directing their attack on civilians.

Oh you mean according to Russia's state run and heavily censored media? I'm sure soon they'll be reporting that George Bush himself appeared to gnaw on the skull of a Russian child, but was beaten off by heroic soldiers of The Motherland.

The constant references to the Bush Regime, etc remind me of my days as a leftist journalist. I used that same term to refer to these guys when I was writing my high school paper. Although I never made references to the Jew run media in my high school newspaper, so I guess that's a step up journalisticly from this guy.

Regardless, I'll be damned if I'd ever reference my high school newspaper as a source.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 16 August 2008 - 10:13 PM

[Deucaon]

Congratulations, Deucaon. You have shown you can quote yourself from the same topic just five posts below it! Oh, and yes, clearly, disapproving of foreign invasion, power plays, and blatant lying about it, and by Russia means I endorse the violent authoritarian government Russia is bombing into rubble because it feels like it.

I was poking fun at J m HofMarN and his "who would support PUTIN THE TERRIBLE" to show him that this has less to do with which leader is more autocratic and more to do with which side is in the right or at least which side is less in the wrong.

With your grasp of logic, I don't understand how you can comprehend the world around you well enough to dress yourself or remember to breathe. Oh, and when your source starts its first sentence off with "...the Israeli-occupied American media are heading the innocent world toward nuclear war." you kind of lose all credibility. OH NOES, TEH JEWZ R CUMING! (Yes, I know all too well that knocking Israel does not mean knocking Jews, but nobody who makes those sorts of ridiculous statements understands that. I was being facetious.)

I quoted it because it sums up my viewpoint quite nicely. Just because they are wrong about Israel doesn't mean they are wrong about Georgia. If you wish I can provide around 20 other articles from all over the political spectrum which doesn't include Jew bashing (some will probably include Jew praising or whatever the opposite of Jew bashing is.)

Before I officially inaugurate this as a debate let me just say that I have no idea why you feel it necessary to oppose almost anything that anyone else on the forums says. I can not fathom how this topic requires a debate to occur. If this were 20 years ago, the Russians in Georgia would each have a US built stinger missile up their ass, and the US would be cheering. Now that Russia is no longer a communist dictatorship (just a regular dictatorship) you think that everything they do is fine? They back Serbia, you're all for it. They invade Chechnya, you say they had to to keep them from seceding. They help secessionists in Georgia, you say they're great. And it's wonderful that after providing these opinions that are totally not meant to just stir people up but are actually informed political beliefs, you have to consistently resort to wildly biased reports to back them.

Well lets see...

1. Though I cant remember debating with any of you about Chechnya... They are right in Chechnya for destroying the child killing terrorists and allowing free elections in the country (something I doubt those crazed child killing terrorists would have done at all.) Also, the crazed child killing terrorists have gone around killing civilians (both Russ and Chechen) with impunity while Russia has sent all Russian soldiers responsible for war crimes to the gulags. So Russia has the moral high ground in this fight.

2. They are right in their support for Serbia because America funded and trained the KLA to instigate a war with Serbia, then it invaded Serbia under false pretences, then America allowed the Albanians to destroy the ethnic communities (Serb, Gorani, Turk, Croat, Muslim, Jews, etc.) within the territory it controls, then America backed the regime in Pristina (all former KLA commanders, one of them called Thaci who slaughtered Serbs in Krajina/Croatia back in the day) while they declared their pseudo state which borrows its name from a Serbian word (Kosovo meaning "Field of Blackbirds" in Serbian while Kosova means dick all in Albanian), then hypocritically whine about international law when its embassy in Belgrade is attacked, then launch a blitz at Serbs in northern Kosovo (on the anniversary of the Albanian pogrom against Serbs in 2004) which led to one Serb getting shot in the head and hundreds of others getting wounded, then telling Serbians that if they don't vote for a certain candidate then America will put a trade embargo on Serbia. So Russia has the moral high ground in this fight as well.

3. They are right in Georgia because they didn’t start the fight, they are only bombing Georgian military targets (otherwise the Georgian pipeline wouldn’t exist and Saakashvili wouldn’t be on TV everyday calling on America for support) and Georgia tried to finish its dirty business while the world’s attention was focused on the Olympics. Also, Russia has restrained itself to Ossetia and Abkhazia. So Russia has the moral high ground in this fight.

Now if Russia randomly attacks a country on the other side of the world (like your country of idiots tends to do) then I would oppose it.

That's good. So Russia elects a former KGB officer as its president prime minister, and takes the red background out of its flag, and now all of a sudden they're the most freedomtastic country ever.

Soviet citizen around 1978: I own nothing. I am not allowed to own anything.

Russian citizen around 2008: I own something. I am allowed to own everything.

Soviet citizen around 1978: If we say something against the state then we are sent to the gulags.

Russian citizen around 2008: If we say something then we are ignored.

Yeah, I would say its better.

Let me get this straight... The Georgian military thought that by "sneak attacking" a tiny Russian peacekeeping force and killing, what, like 100 Russian soldiers, they would SOMEHOW defeat the nation that lost 3 million soldiers in World War 2 and still came out on top? Somehow I can't comprehend that logic. Lenin himself, a former leader of Russia, said that when you don't understand something ,you ask who benefits and there you will find your culprit. Russia stands to gain a lot of land from this, and they have a history of land grabs in the Caucasus, like Chechnya. The evidence is stacked against them.

So the Georgian military blitzed Russian peacekeepers and bombed the Ossetian capital and you’re stating that its impossible that they did it (despite the tremendous amount of evidence saying otherwise) because they weren’t going to win.

Here’s an idea: Saakashvili thought he would kill a few Ossetians because the Russian military would be paralysed for a few days while its political leaders were in Beijing (thus the military could no get the go ahead from the Russian president and Russia had no operational command, at least not politically.) Saakashvili also believes that he has full American backing (which he does) and that America will save him if things get bad because there is a vital pipeline which runs through Georgia.

Oh you mean according to Russia's state run and heavily censored media? I'm sure soon they'll be reporting that George Bush himself appeared to gnaw on the skull of a Russian child, but was beaten off by heroic soldiers of The Motherland.

The constant references to the Bush Regime, etc remind me of my days as a leftist journalist. I used that same term to refer to these guys when I was writing my high school paper. Although I never made references to the Jew run media in my high school newspaper, so I guess that's a step up journalisticly from this guy.

Regardless, I'll be damned if I'd ever reference my high school newspaper as a source.

America has trained and equipped Georgian soldiers since Saakashvili took power... what makes you think they aren't directing them at the moment? I mean, American troops directed the Croatian military while it slaughtered Krajina Serbs and plunged into Bosnia. Its not like American politicians/officers have any conscience about proxy wars.

This post has been edited by Deucaon: 16 August 2008 - 11:52 PM

[J m HofMarN]

I was poking fun at J m HofMarN and his "who would support PUTIN THE TERRIBLE" to show him that this has less to do with which leader is more autocratic and more to do with which side is in the right or at least which side is less in the wrong.

Alright, so South Ossetia seceded almost indubitably with Russian backing, and then Russia unilaterally occupies the province to make sure it can secede, even though its technicly part of Georgia, and now suddenly when the Georgians want their territory back and are trying to stop rebels attacking them from the safe zone they've carced out, the Georgians are the bad guys? Isnt this the EXACT same action you backed Russia for taking against Chechnya?

I quoted it because it sums up my viewpoint quite nicely. Just because they are wrong about Israel doesn't mean they are wrong about Georgia. If you wish I can provide around 20 other articles from all over the political spectrum which doesn't include Jew bashing (some will probably include Jew praising or whatever the opposite of Jew bashing is.)

So let me understand this... The guy blames the Jew, nay, the Israeli owned media for the conflict, and that doesnt at all distract from his understanding of it? Hey, you can write a four hundred page volume on the Vietnam war, but if your conclusion is that Emperor Palpatine was manipulating both sides to gain power in the Galactic Senate, you're a nut job and no one is going to take your ideas seriously.

1. Though I cant remember debating with any of you about Chechnya... They are right in Chechnya for destroying the child killing terrorists and allowing free elections in the country (something I doubt those crazed child killing terrorists would have done at all.) Also, the crazed child killing terrorists have gone around killing civilians (both Russ and Chechen) with impunity while Russia has sent all Russian soldiers responsible for war crimes to the gulags. So Russia has the moral high ground in this fight.

Free elections generally require that people have a real choice. Russia banned all nationalist parties from taking part and handpicked a pro Russia puppet as president, releasing him from a Russian jail just so he could be their Chechen bitch. Also, [crazed] child killing terrorists is a great descriptor for anyone who opposes Russian rule in Chechnya. I just cant argue with that. Anyone who fights the Russians is a [crazed] child killing terrorist, so I must concede the point.

They are right in their support for Serbia because America funded and trained the KLA to instigate a war with Serbia

The KLA came to prominence without any input from the US, and it was only after they started their national struggle that the US got involved.

Also, Russia has restrained itself to Ossetia and Abkhazia. So Russia has the moral high ground in this fight.

Russia is only taking what it wants and what it knows it can easily gain, so that somehow gives them moral high ground? Why did they take Abkhazia if the Georgian assaults were exclusive to Ossetia? Again, it's a land grab.

Soviet citizen around 1978: I own nothing. I am not allowed to own anything.

Oh come on, total state ownership was hardly a major concern once De-Stalinization started.

Russian citizen around 2008: If we say something then we are ignored.

Or, ya know, secretly murdered/suicided/sent to an insane asylum/fed fucking radioactive waste. Russia is without a doubt backsliding into authoritarianism.

So the Georgian military blitzed Russian peacekeepers and bombed the Ossetian capital and you’re stating that its impossible that they did it

I am saying that while their actions might have been dumb, they were not comitted under such insane schemes. More than likely they were responding to separatist provocations. And your suggestion that somehow the war would go better for them just because Putin was in Beijing is absurd. It's as easy to run a country from a hotel room in China as it is from anywhere in said country.

America has trained and equipped Georgian soldiers since Saakashvili took power... what makes you think they aren't directing them at the moment?

Good for them. Saakashvilli by the way did not just "take power" but was elected. I see nothing wrong with American soldiers helping him in return for rights to a pipe line.

Now if Russia randomly attacks a country on the other side of the world (like your country of idiots tends to do) then I would oppose it.

Ok, I'm no fan of randomly bombing Arab nations, but why is it better if a country attacks and subsumes a nation it shares a border with, than if that nation attacks a country it doesn't share a border with? Why does the one make a place a country of idiots, and the other does not?

Edit: Just had to correct my terrorist related terminology. I didnt know we were reopening the "all terrorists are crazed with hatred" debate debacle.

PS: Please show me one of your Jew praising Georgia articles.

I would love to see how you can fit "WOOOO! EXTREME HASSIDIC JEW TO THE MAX! MOSES IS TEH ROXXOR" and "Fuck Georgia" into the same article.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 17 August 2008 - 06:10 PM

[Vesuvius]

Hmmm, this thread started because some rednecks in the US got scared that Russians were attacking them.

Now, this thread (I think) should be moved to the Debate Club.

When did the humor in ignorance start this battle?

[Slade]

*sigh* Maybe at least being in the Debate Club will confuse Ad Sense so I'll see less advertisements for meeting "stunning Russian girls." At least until they start running stunning Star Wars Russian girls ads.

[Itaritz]

Teach me to start a controversial thread, will you?

[Vesuvius]

*sigh* Maybe at least being in the Debate Club will confuse Ad Sense so I'll see less advertisements for meeting "stunning Russian girls." At least until they start running stunning Star Wars Russian girls ads.

Russian Fangirls, nice.


Itaritz, it's not hard, but beware, it get's crazy... fast!

[Phoenix]

/sigh
I have two things to say about this...

1. I blame our public schools for the stupidity that plagues the majority of the population...

2. Is anyone surprised that Vladimir Putin doesn't want to leave office? He's just another politician hungry for power.

3. I don't see a point in complaining about something that doesn't effect us, Russia is so deteriorated from the power it held as the Soviet Union that it is no longer a superpower, therefore it doesn't pose a threat to us. Unless they start strapping bombs to their citizens and send them to the U.S. to kill innocent people, they don't pose a real threat.

P.S. I realize that was more than two things, so i'm gonna throw in a bonus picture of Vladimir Putin for fun...

This post has been edited by Phoenix: 19 August 2008 - 01:30 AM

[J m HofMarN]

2. Is anyone surprised that Vladimir Putin doesn't want to leave office? He's just another politician hungry for power.

Yes, actually most politicans do leave office when they're required to. There is a bit of a difference between a pseudo dictator and your average bureaucrat.

3. I don't see a point in complaining about something that doesn't effect us, Russia is so deteriorated from the power it held as the Soviet Union that it is no longer a superpower, therefore it doesn't pose a threat to us. Unless they start strapping bombs to their citizens and send them to the U.S. to kill innocent people, they don't pose a real threat.

Deteriorated? They've won two wars in the same time period that we've barely just calmed down Iraq and are now struggling in Afghanistan. So that's 2-1 Russia. They still have nukes, those things dont just go away. Also they're building up their military a lot, and working on consolidating power in the executive branch, and of course quashing all possible dissent. Just because they're not commies doesn't mean they're not a threat.

[Slade]

I'm more concerned about the sentiment that because it's no immediate perceived direct danger to us, we shouldn't worry about it. In this day and age, we all have a responsibility to be informed and concerned about the state of the world as a whole if we have compassion for our fellow man.

Also note how given the current US Presidential Administration's history of foreign policy, nobody really gives a shit what Bush or Rice say anymore. What can they really do to Russia that doesn't involve extreme violence when most of the rest of the world won't even stand beside them?

[J m HofMarN]

I'm sure right now visions of Operation Rusky Freedom are dancing through Dubya's head. Ironically somehow he STILL wont be able to find stockpiles of WMD.

[Deucaon]

Alright, so South Ossetia seceded almost indubitably with Russian backing, and then Russia unilaterally occupies the province to make sure it can secede, even though its technicly part of Georgia, and now suddenly when the Georgians want their territory back and are trying to stop rebels attacking them from the safe zone they've carced out, the Georgians are the bad guys? Isnt this the EXACT same action you backed Russia for taking against Chechnya?

Except Chechnya has grand autonomy within Russia and Russia never tried to remove that autonomy or try to permanently "remove" any Chechens from their homes (at worst, the first war can be summed up as careless and clumsy but it cannot be compared to the ruthless calculations of Georgian actions against Ossetians.) Of course I don't support Ossetia in its bid for independence (call me old fashioned for sticking to international law) since everything was fine and dandy before the Georgian blitzkrieg and Ossetia had autonomy within Georgia.

So let me understand this... The guy blames the Jew, nay, the Israeli owned media for the conflict, and that doesnt at all distract from his understanding of it? Hey, you can write a four hundred page volume on the Vietnam war, but if your conclusion is that Emperor Palpatine was manipulating both sides to gain power in the Galactic Senate, you're a nut job and no one is going to take your ideas seriously.

He states facts. Georgia did attack first. America cant stop Russia save using nukes.

Free elections generally require that people have a real choice. Russia banned all nationalist parties from taking part and handpicked a pro Russia puppet as president, releasing him from a Russian jail just so he could be their Chechen bitch. Also, [crazed] child killing terrorists is a great descriptor for anyone who opposes Russian rule in Chechnya. I just cant argue with that. Anyone who fights the Russians is a [crazed] child killing terrorist, so I must concede the point.

Freer then anything the child killing terrorists (Shamil Basayev bragged about being the planner of the Beslan school massacre on tape) would have instituted.

Anyhow, I don't feel like being lectured on democracy from someone who is an apologist for the Castro regime, the Vietnamese commies and the Georgian autocracy.

The KLA came to prominence without any input from the US, and it was only after they started their national struggle that the US got involved.

Wrong.

Russia is only taking what it wants and what it knows it can easily gain, so that somehow gives them moral high ground? Why did they take Abkhazia if the Georgian assaults were exclusive to Ossetia? Again, it's a land grab.

Russia has the high moral ground for stopping the Georgian attacks on Ossetian civilians (i.e. doing its peacekeeping duty) and for not being the instigator of the war.

Oh come on, total state ownership was hardly a major concern once De-Stalinization started.

Yeah I bet people living under Soviet slavery enjoyed working dawn til dusk and not being allowed to buy the house/apartment they live in and not being able to own a car or large appliances because Soviet productivity was so low or not being able to afford those things in the first place.

Or, ya know, secretly murdered/suicided/sent to an insane asylum/fed fucking radioactive waste. Russia is without a doubt backsliding into authoritarianism.

Or not since that doesn’t happen.

I am saying that while their actions might have been dumb, they were not comitted under such insane schemes. More than likely they were responding to separatist provocations. And your suggestion that somehow the war would go better for them just because Putin was in Beijing is absurd. It's as easy to run a country from a hotel room in China as it is from anywhere in said country.

Reality is absurd. Tell me what’s not absurd about ordering a blitzkrieg on a demilitarized region.

Good for them. Saakashvilli by the way did not just "take power" but was elected. I see nothing wrong with American soldiers helping him in return for rights to a pipe line.

Timeline of Saakashvili’s reign:

1. Takes power in orchestrated mob violence in 2003 (was given bundles of money from America beforehand.)

2. Wins the presidency with 96% of the electoral vote in 2004 (rigged in my opinion but that is irrelevant.)

3. Declares a state emergency when some people protest against his presidency, he then proceeds to order the arrests of everyone who disagrees with him which causes mass rioting across the capital which he then blames on phantom Russian instigators.

4. Tries to blitz Ossetian dominated areas with UN sanctioned Russian (and Georgian) peacekeepers stationed there in 2008.

5. ???

6. PROFIT!

Ok, I'm no fan of randomly bombing Arab nations, but why is it better if a country attacks and subsumes a nation it shares a border with, than if that nation attacks a country it doesn't share a border with? Why does the one make a place a country of idiots, and the other does not?

Because America had no reason to invade the last 4 out of 6 countries it had since 1990. I can understand the first Iraq war in because America’s ally was attacked by Iraq and I understand the current war in Afghanistan (though it seems odd that they went into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden and now they‘re there helping build Mosques, talk about a lack of coherent priorities) but the wars it raged against Somalia (it wasn’t American peacekeepers that were killed and I don’t think America even had peacekeepers in the Horn of Africa during that time), Republika Srpska Krajina, Republika Srpska, Serbia and Iraq the second time around were without any logical casus belli.

[Slade]

Because America had no reason to invade the last 4 out of 6 countries it had since 1990.

But it IS ok to invade a country once properly provoked, given your support of Russia's invasion of Georgia?

Jm's suggestion is that Georgia would not be foolish enough to attack South Ossetia because given its leaders have even the smallest amount of intelligence, they would expect Russian retaliation and not simply assume the international community would come to its aid and stand against Russia when the inevitable counter-attack comes. If we assume the Georgian military and government has a brain, Russia started it.

Also, how can you accept that Russia was a state capitalist dictatorship to the point of mocking it via juxtaposition with what you are presenting as a totally alien paradigm, but you can't accept that they could have and may continue to be conducting very shady activities? I should really be beyond even trying to understand how things work in Deucaon World, but I keep trying.

I don't know enough about the region and history and what-not to take sides, except to say anybody doing any fighting is stupid and needs to stop and leave the other side alone.