[DistantAngel]

The one thing I've always known about "Star Wars" is that it has some of the best and most rabid fans of any item of pop culture. Sure "Star Trek", "Lord Of The Rings", "Buffy" and so on have their die-hard fans, but none seem to be so frothing-at-the-mouth defensive and protective as the Followers of George (herein after referred to FOGs).

We all have our own geeky-loves; for me it was SW, until I was introduced to "Lord of the Rings" by an uncle who figured I should be shown exactly where a lot of SW's ideas were pinched from. We all have these obsessions, we all hold them close to our hearts, and we are all ready to leap to their defence whenever they are criticised. It's only natural, after all ... when someone attacks that which you love, it's as though they're attacking you for loving it. Just as I would attack anyone who criticised my fiancee, so I would attack those who criticised my nerdy obsessions.

But love is a very strange thing, and it takes a lifetime to learn to deal with it. One aspect of love is its ability to blind you to the truth. We all delude ourselves when we first fall in love that the object of our affection is perfect, flawless, infallible - slowly, we learn to accept that this is not the case, and that everything is flawed; how you deal with those flaws is a direct reflection of your love. This, for me, is why the people HERE, on this board, are true "Star Wars" fans, not the rabid FOGs.

True love is when you accept that your love has flaws, and you just simply work around them and get on with your life. Everyone here freely accepts that the Star Wars universe is imperfect, but we love it all the same. Surely this willingness to love something, warts and all, demonstrates a greater degree of affection than somone who blindly and vehemently defends something with a stubborn refusal to admit that it might not be perfect? Surely a FOG's adamant defence of Star Wars and George Lucas is merely just a response to the feeling of being personally attacked? That's not so much love as it is egotism ... a self-centred desire to always be right; a refusal to admit that one could ever be wrong.

It's often said that it's the flaws that make something (or someone) interesting, and I'm inclined to agree. The original trilogy had many flaws, but they were balanced enough and small enough to be endearing. Just as a major personality flaw in a human being (like psychotic behaviour, for example) is something to be concerned about rather than loved, so too should we be worried about massive flaws in the prequel trilogy. It's not that we hate them, at least not at first, we just worry about them. When they start to abuse us, then we hate them. TPM was like that first time your other-half throws a major fit and starts calling you names. You don't hate them at first, but you do worry about what might have happened to cause the problem. AOTC, however, was like a severe case of domestic violence, and you begin to wonder whether it was something you did - whether it's your fault.

The die-hard FOGs (a name I feel is becoming appropriate since they're blinded to the reality of what's around them) are like the victims of domestic violence - in their hearts, they know something is wrong, but don't want to get out. "But I love them", they'll say, as Episode 3 turns up and gives them another kicking. You know and I know that they don't ... not really ... it's denial ... but they can't admit to themselves that they might be wrong, and that it's time to bail. And they always become defensive when you try to tell them that ...

But, we can only keep trying ... we can only do all we can to help. Sooner or later, they will see that the love they once knew, the Star Wars of old, is no longer around ... it's time to break free and forget the abusive, drunken, slovenly trilogy we see today, and just enjoy the memories of the charming, sweet, fun trilogy we fell in love with in our youth.

[Just your average movie goer]

Amen. That was a wonderful post, Distant Angel. Your point about what is real when we love something and what is blind delusion was very poignant - as was your analogy, comparing the Star Wars movies to a beautiful relationship that has deteriorated into one where those who stay are abused. And yes, FOGs is a very appropriate abbreviation for the followers of George. I like the term actually - it's very catchy.

Overall, the thing about your post is it offers a wonderful reflection on the nature of all our discussions. This is what it is all about.

We are a group of people who fell in love with Star Wars movies. But Star Wars has been bad to us recently and we are coming to grips with the fact that it's over.

But while many of us have moved onto newer and better things, such as the wonderful Lord of the Rings movies (speaking for myself here, although I'm sure there are others), we will always love the old Star Wars movies - as you say, warts and all.

Those movies are a part of our childhood. They invited us into the imaginary world of films, sparked our interests in movie escapism and adventure stories and in no small way, shaped us in doing so.

Perhaps while we wait for Episode III to kick us in the stomach - so we may have new material to bitch about (YAY! ) - we could celebrate the things we love about the original movies. Maybe we could discuss our own personal highlights from those movies.

Anyway, a wonderful post, Distant Angel - well thought out and eloquently expressed.

- Movie Goer

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 24 June 2004 - 08:05 AM

[CowboyCurtis]

FOGs--Great name for them!

Yeah, you just can't argue with these people. I feel like they are arguing for the sake of arguing. I see people like this in just about everything nowadays. I use to go into those forums and argue only to frustrate myself. I can't/won't do that anymore. It'll never win them over.

And, I have to add, these films are really ruining the fandom. My best friend was the most rabid Star Wars fan. We could always talk about it, but since the PT's, this conversation has just died. You'd think that with new Star Wars movies, you'd be endlessly discussing it, but now he's lost heart in it and won't talk about it anymore, not even to bash the prequels. Now he just shrugs his shoulders and says, "meh, they're only movies. I just watch them becausing they're entertaining." I was rather livid. Star Wars use to be MORE than entertainment. It was MORE than the sum of its parts.

Lucas has let us down.

Also the inclusion of Jango Fett the bounty hunter (who incidentally never seems to get a bounty on anyone or do much hunting) was attrocious. Why even bother giving Boba a backstory and waste time that should have been used making Anakin a believable character? We're not supposed to sympathize with the kid but we're not supposed to outright despise him.

I agree. What kind of "assassin" is he when he's a hired a job--HE OUGHT TO COMPLETE IT!!! I mean, after he kills Zam--that's it? If I was Dookie, I would've chopped his head off myself. "What the hell are you doing here? Is Amidala dead?" "Uhm...no?" ZZeeeW!!! (Then Boba would've had it in for the Count--snicker). Where is our big bad Sith!??*

But, seriously, that's pretty incompetent. It would've added much needed tension to the story if Jango had pursued the Queen and Anakin, if he had been relentless and chased them even to Tatooine, that would've made the film much much better. Would've been really cool if he and Zam had worked together. It's just so much wasted opportunity!!!! TPM is this way, too. I'll give Ep3 a little chance, but that's all I'm willing to give.

Oh well...

*Notice that the Sith just really don't come across all that bad. Maul was the bad-est, but Palpatine where's all of his evil glory? Dooku didn't come across as a big bad Sith, more a "misunderstood Jedi" or something. Feh!

[Just your average movie goer]

Jango Fett pushes the envelope of stupidity and pointlessness....

He is hired to kill Amidala. But instead of trying to kill her himself, he hires someone else to kill her. And this person doesn't try to kill Amidala directly either. She gets a droid to do it.

Count Dookoo could have sent a droid himself if he knew that was going to happen - and eliminate two really incompetent middle-men.

Bounty hunters hiring bounty hunters? That is insane.

And, I have to add, these films are really ruining the fandom. My best friend was the most rabid Star Wars fan. We could always talk about it, but since the PT's, this conversation has just died. You'd think that with new Star Wars movies, you'd be endlessly discussing it, but now he's lost heart in it and won't talk about it anymore, not even to bash the prequels.

That sums it up for me, Cowboy. I'm going the same way as your friend. I look forward to bashing Episode III. I'm not sure if I'll watch it or not, though. I may just save myself the trouble and read Chefelf's 500 Reasons to Hate Episode III... as that would be as good a summary as any. But after that, I think I'll probably not talk about it much at all.

Anyway, to continue with Distant Angel's relationship analogy, after Star Wars hurt me, I have found somebody new in The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

I am in love again. And this time, I know the relationship will never go sour. Unlike George Lucas, Peter Jackson is never going to abuse me with prequels.

I'll never find out that Saruman was once a whiny teenager who went to high school with Smeagol and had the hots for Elrond's mother. And I will happier for it...

unlike George Lucas, the man who raped and murdered some of my favourite childhood memories.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 24 June 2004 - 08:58 AM

[Helena]

Great posts, everyone. And yeah, I can't wait for Chefelf's next list either.

I've no desire to see the FOGs over here, to be honest. There's no point in arguing with someone unless a) there's a chance of them changing their minds and b) they can come up with coherent arguments of their own, which is almost certainly not the case for about 95% of the prequel-lovers. If they came here they'd only troll and annoy everyone.

[Jordan]

I like arguing on tival topics. Geez you people are dry.

"no, I shall not argue with fogs (wtf?) they are all morons and a waste of my time, I'm above them." "I don't want them here in chef's forums, they might post 10 or more times and leave, and those posts will destroy the place." "I have a stick up my ass"

  If they came here they'd only troll and annoy everyone.

You say this based on what?

This post has been edited by Jordan: 24 June 2004 - 02:25 PM

[Helena]

I like arguing on tival topics.  Geez you people are dry.

"no, I shall not argue with fogs (wtf?) they are all morons and a waste of my time, I'm above them."  "I don't want them here in chef's forums, they might post 10 or more times and leave, and those posts will destroy the place." "I have a stick up my ass"

Sheeeesh, someone's in a bad mood! Seriously, I don't actually care that much. I'm just surprised that you want these people here when they seem to annoy you so much - I'm quite happy to leave them to rave over the prequels if that's what they want to do.

  If they came here they'd only troll and annoy everyone.

You say this based on what?

Well, partly on the basis of your own post:

They are fucking assholes! I was treated with the highest form of contempt when I posted there.

I only had two big arguements going. Boba Fett and the Love Story. My Boba fett post was sincere. I just asked "why is he in the film, and how does he at all have an integral role in the saga" I posted in the afternoon, and by late evening i had over 30 replies!!!!!!! All of them save one where calling me "soft" insulting names.

Note that I did not call them 'morons' or anything else, but you did call them 'fucking assholes'.

[Jordan]

They are assholes. But not morons. They would not annoy everyone. They would defend Lucas, and at the end of their posts say "you just hate lucas" or "i'm so sick of people like you saying bad things about the movie"

This post has been edited by Jordan: 24 June 2004 - 03:44 PM

[Ferris Wiel]

They are assholes. But not morons. They would not annoy everyone. They would defend Lucas, and at the end of their posts say "you just hate lucas" or "i'm so sick of people like you saying bad things about the movie"

Can't argue with you. I went in there and made a couple of mild-mannered comments and I had them on me, calling me a "troll" accusing me of "socking" et cetera. They're so wrapped up in their delusions that they go after the person rather than the idea. No worries, though, I may get a Hyperspace member kick-banned.

--FW

[Jordan]

Oh right on man. Vengence is mine. However, there's a 97% chance you are going to get banned too.

They go easier on the HYPER SPACE MEMBERS, obviously. If you get ban, they burn your entire post history, as if you never existed. The mods are real cocky too.

I was called a flamer, sock, and a troll. It happens to anyone who strays from the typical topic headings.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 24 June 2004 - 05:57 PM

[Ferris Wiel]

Oh right on man. Vengence is mine. However, there's a 97% chance you are going to get banned too.

They go easier on the HYPER SPACE MEMBERS, obviously. If you get ban, they burn your entire post history, as if you never existed. The mods are real cocky too, almost laugh able.

I was called a flamer, sock, and a troll. It happens to anyone who strays from the typical topic headings.

Worse yet, I was ON TOPIC!

--FW

[Just your average movie goer]

I have to say calm down, Jordan. We don't have sticks up our asses or anything like that. But I think that having FOGs over here would just annoy everyone. The FOGs would just post uneducated, rude posts under all our headings and piss everybody off until Chefelf had to ban them. Really, it'd be a waste of time.

[Jordan]

I don't think it would be a waste of time. I'm sure they would not be flat out rude. They would be cocky, like us, and stay on topic. I thought it would be fun to have some people in here (for a short while. I'm positive they would not stay) who like the PT's.

We've only had one guy in here who did defend them. He rapped and made fun of people. I can't remember his name.

Sorry about the stick up the ass, next time I will use emoticons.

[Just your average movie goer]

Fair enough. Well if any come over, they come over, I guess. But if they piss me off, I will eat them alive.