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American soldiers caught masturbating while the world pretends to be surprised.

#16 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 06:22 PM

I'm generally one for free speech and all that, but I think were some of those generalized statements made to my face about people in the (US) military I would probably have to kill someone for impugning upon my family's honor in such a fashion. While I wouldn't say I came from a "military family", very many of my relatives and ancestors have served in the military. On my mother's side of the family I have ancestry that have served in nearly every single war America has ever entered. And I can quite assure you that the living ones I know are none of the things that you, Deuacon, have herein described. In fact, a cousin of mine who is currently serving is a 1st Lieutenant in the marines. He has served in Iraq, as a tank instructor. I know him to be a very decent human being. Many thanks to God that he hasn't had to kill anyone. My father was in the Army as an artillery sergeant and served in Korea. My father is a good man.

Note: there is a highest attainable rank for enlisted personel, it's different for various branches of the military. There is no such thing as a field promotion from enlisted personel to officer, you must go to officer school. That's the kind of bullshit you get from watching too much TV and too many movies (or listening to too many liars). If I am mistaken in that such an instance has in fact occured before, it is indeed a very rare thing.

Also ... those varies weapons platforms are all obsolite? I mean sure compared to nukes they would be. I suppose it would be a rather tough world if we all just nuked each other though. Or compared to battleships ... but those are boats, and boats need to generally be in the water. I don't know, I could be wrong there. I'm just going to go ahead and assume that you don't actually know a damn thing about weapons tech, nor the actual cost of the more futristic awesome weapons tech that we may or may not have present in the world.
Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

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#17 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 01:14 AM

While we're on the subject of monstrous things people do for purely selfish reasons, how do you feel about the police? The fire department? Are they also rape-based organizations? I'm just curious here, and yeah, what Zato said.

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#18 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:06 AM

View PostZatoichi, on 30 December 2010 - 09:22 AM, said:

I'm generally one for free speech and all that, but I think were some of those generalized statements made to my face about people in the (US) military I would probably have to kill someone for impugning upon my family's honor in such a fashion. While I wouldn't say I came from a "military family", very many of my relatives and ancestors have served in the military. On my mother's side of the family I have ancestry that have served in nearly every single war America has ever entered. And I can quite assure you that the living ones I know are none of the things that you, Deuacon, have herein described. In fact, a cousin of mine who is currently serving is a 1st Lieutenant in the marines. He has served in Iraq, as a tank instructor. I know him to be a very decent human being. Many thanks to God that he hasn't had to kill anyone. My father was in the Army as an artillery sergeant and served in Korea. My father is a good man.

Note: there is a highest attainable rank for enlisted personel, it's different for various branches of the military. There is no such thing as a field promotion from enlisted personel to officer, you must go to officer school. That's the kind of bullshit you get from watching too much TV and too many movies (or listening to too many liars). If I am mistaken in that such an instance has in fact occured before, it is indeed a very rare thing.


Your father served when America had a draft, correct? Not to mention when the American government had tight control of the media as a result of WW2 and the Cold War. Maybe your father wasn't a bad man, maybe your father was just an idiot, or a conscript. As for your cousin, what the hell good is a tank in Iraq?

View PostZatoichi, on 30 December 2010 - 09:22 AM, said:

Also ... those varies weapons platforms are all obsolite? I mean sure compared to nukes they would be. I suppose it would be a rather tough world if we all just nuked each other though. Or compared to battleships ... but those are boats, and boats need to generally be in the water. I don't know, I could be wrong there. I'm just going to go ahead and assume that you don't actually know a damn thing about weapons tech, nor the actual cost of the more futristic awesome weapons tech that we may or may not have present in the world.


Does the Afghan, Pakistan or Iraq insurgency have an air force or fleet? Do they have tanks or other hard targets that planes and ships are designed to destroy? Even America is understanding their own idiocy and starting to use drones. Though they're hardly more efficient than planes when you have faulty intelligence. But yeah, maybe I don't know anything about military technology.

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 30 December 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

While we're on the subject of monstrous things people do for purely selfish reasons, how do you feel about the police? The fire department? Are they also rape-based organizations? I'm just curious here, and yeah, what Zato said.


Only those who're volunteers are above criticism.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
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#19 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 12:53 AM

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As for your cousin['s ethical reasons for joining the military, and ethical conduct therein, which is the topic at hand], what the hell good is a tank in Iraq?


What in the hell is wrong with you? Please pop a ritalin before debating.

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Only those who're volunteers are above criticism.


I thought you said that people only volunteer for the military so that they can rape eachother. If so, why is that above criticism? Or did you mean that only people who volunteer to be firemen or police are above criticism? That doesnt seem to have anything to do with my questions because fire, police and rescue services can't draft anyone.... Unless....

Are you implying that only UNPAID, therefore purely VOLUNTARY firemen and police are "above criticism"? Because, no.

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#20 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 08:19 PM

View PostDeucaon, on 08 January 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:

Your father served when America had a draft, correct? Not to mention when the American government had tight control of the media as a result of WW2 and the Cold War. Maybe your father wasn't a bad man, maybe your father was just an idiot, or a conscript. As for your cousin, what the hell good is a tank in Iraq?


Well, my dad volunteered. Thank you for asking instead just assuming. Oh, no wait, you didn't do that. And I'm not sure, but are you saying that people are either forced into the military and had no choice, or they volunteer and they're idiots? Wait, just a bit later you state that volunteers are beyond criticism. But they're also idiots. And they're the wack-jobs that do all the raping and stuff. Sounds to me like you've contradicted yourself (And just because someone volunteered for something, it does not put them beyond reproach). On top of that, no, my father is not an idiot. This isn't me saying that just because he's my dad. I don't think one other person has gotten me pissed off more than he has, but that certainly doesn't belay his intelligence, nor any other virtues that he may or may not posses.

Gee, I thought tanks blew shit up and generally helped to keep their occupants alive. I would suppose if they weren't actually working at all, than they wouldn't be using them. And then also why is it that pretty much every country that has a military and can afford to use tanks does so? Does that make all of the militaries in the world moronic? If the heads of militaries are such morons, why are they running armies and you're not?

And when fighting the Iraqi military, tanks helped the US beat the stuffing out of them. As did all of our other toys.

As for my cousin's ethics in joining the military, I don't know for certain. I do know that he has a desire to help good people and stop the badguys (yes I'm being overly simplistic here, but I am not my cousin and I do not know all of his motives, or the extent to which whatever ethics he subscribes to has affected them). Things might've changed, but he wants to join the FBI. He's got a Master's Degree in Criminal Justice and is a 1st Lieutenant in the Marines (and planning on going higher still), both things that would go a long way towards him getting a job with the FBI.

View PostDeucaon, on 08 January 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:

Does the Afghan, Pakistan or Iraq insurgency have an air force or fleet? Do they have tanks or other hard targets that planes and ships are designed to destroy? Even America is understanding their own idiocy and starting to use drones. Though they're hardly more efficient than planes when you have faulty intelligence. But yeah, maybe I don't know anything about military technology.


le sigh. Alright, how is it that an army fighting something that is not an army suddenly make all of it's shiny toys totally obsolete? What if the next day they were to fight another army? What the hell would you use against them? "Well, men, all of our shiny toys are now obsolete, so we're going to think up some new toys while they beat us with all of that obsolete junk." Hey, weren't Afghanis using rocket launchers against the US that the US gave them to fight the Soviets a while back? Apparently that's a bunch of obsolete crap that still seems to get the job done. Or here's an example, why are metal blades ever used anymore? I mean come on, they came up with the metal blade so long ago it's ridiculous. We have weapon systems that can level cities and more. Why is it that so many groups of people on the planet that use force of any kind (militaries, militias, or otherwise) still use such an apparently outdated, obsolete, piece of crap item? Why does it still come in so many various shapes, sizes, etc? Need I go on? (nope :) )

Something being not so great for the situation it's being used in, does not make it obsolete. In this case it's an army facing an opposition that hides itself within(and gets varying amounts of aid from) the local citizenry. This opposition also doesn't seem to much care about who dies and who doesn't, as long as it isn't them (unless they did a suicide run, then I would guess they desired death at that point), whereas the army generally cares about not killing civies (Or is generally forced to care because of public opinion from their home country). Because really, if nobody cared, then we could just nuke the hell out of the place and have done with it. Because of the situation, it is really difficult for the army to use what it would normally use against an opponent.

As for drones, which kinds of drones are you talking about? The ones that help aim missles fired by battleships, helicopters, fighter planes, and bombers? (Things you were saying were obsolete, right?) Also, drones are relatively new, and I would guess not as affordable and therefore not as available as you would like them to be. And anyways there are simply so many factors involved that a military cannot just switch over to the latest and greatest thing with a snap of one's fingers, let alone every single time there's an upgrade.

But I'll humor you even. If everything that militaries around the world have are so obsolete, could you provide me with a list of technologies, weapons platform, etc, that they all ought to be outfitted with, and how they possibly afford the change over (That would include the cost of retraining a country's entire armed forces and restructing them). And you can just leave out and experimental items or things that are still in their testing phases. Those tech items simply aren't ready yet. Yes, I realize that this is practically an impossible request and that I am in actuality not even humoring you.

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 09 January 2011 - 08:28 PM

Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

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#21 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 10:26 PM

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But I'll humor you even. If everything that militaries around the world have are so obsolete, could you provide me with a list of technologies, weapons platform, etc, that they all ought to be outfitted with, and how they possibly afford the change over (That would include the cost of retraining a country's entire armed forces and restructing them). And you can just leave out and experimental items or things that are still in their testing phases. Those tech items simply aren't ready yet. Yes, I realize that this is practically an impossible request and that I am in actuality not even humoring you.


Unless he has changed his mind, or I'm misinterpreting his brilliant ideas, Deuacon's military strategy is to draft the unemployed and send them in human waves against the enemy. No word on whether or not they'll suffer the random rape that is suddenly mandatory in the military.

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#22 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 06:03 PM

View PostZatoichi, on 10 January 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Well, my dad volunteered. Thank you for asking instead just assuming. Oh, no wait, you didn't do that. And I'm not sure, but are you saying that people are either forced into the military and had no choice, or they volunteer and they're idiots? Wait, just a bit later you state that volunteers are beyond criticism. But they're also idiots. And they're the wack-jobs that do all the raping and stuff. Sounds to me like you've contradicted yourself (And just because someone volunteered for something, it does not put them beyond reproach). On top of that, no, my father is not an idiot. This isn't me saying that just because he's my dad. I don't think one other person has gotten me pissed off more than he has, but that certainly doesn't belay his intelligence, nor any other virtues that he may or may not posses.

Gee, I thought tanks blew shit up and generally helped to keep their occupants alive. I would suppose if they weren't actually working at all, than they wouldn't be using them. And then also why is it that pretty much every country that has a military and can afford to use tanks does so? Does that make all of the militaries in the world moronic? If the heads of militaries are such morons, why are they running armies and you're not?

And when fighting the Iraqi military, tanks helped the US beat the stuffing out of them. As did all of our other toys.

As for my cousin's ethics in joining the military, I don't know for certain. I do know that he has a desire to help good people and stop the badguys (yes I'm being overly simplistic here, but I am not my cousin and I do not know all of his motives, or the extent to which whatever ethics he subscribes to has affected them). Things might've changed, but he wants to join the FBI. He's got a Master's Degree in Criminal Justice and is a 1st Lieutenant in the Marines (and planning on going higher still), both things that would go a long way towards him getting a job with the FBI.



le sigh. Alright, how is it that an army fighting something that is not an army suddenly make all of it's shiny toys totally obsolete? What if the next day they were to fight another army? What the hell would you use against them? "Well, men, all of our shiny toys are now obsolete, so we're going to think up some new toys while they beat us with all of that obsolete junk." Hey, weren't Afghanis using rocket launchers against the US that the US gave them to fight the Soviets a while back? Apparently that's a bunch of obsolete crap that still seems to get the job done. Or here's an example, why are metal blades ever used anymore? I mean come on, they came up with the metal blade so long ago it's ridiculous. We have weapon systems that can level cities and more. Why is it that so many groups of people on the planet that use force of any kind (militaries, militias, or otherwise) still use such an apparently outdated, obsolete, piece of crap item? Why does it still come in so many various shapes, sizes, etc? Need I go on? (nope :) )

Something being not so great for the situation it's being used in, does not make it obsolete. In this case it's an army facing an opposition that hides itself within(and gets varying amounts of aid from) the local citizenry. This opposition also doesn't seem to much care about who dies and who doesn't, as long as it isn't them (unless they did a suicide run, then I would guess they desired death at that point), whereas the army generally cares about not killing civies (Or is generally forced to care because of public opinion from their home country). Because really, if nobody cared, then we could just nuke the hell out of the place and have done with it. Because of the situation, it is really difficult for the army to use what it would normally use against an opponent.

As for drones, which kinds of drones are you talking about? The ones that help aim missles fired by battleships, helicopters, fighter planes, and bombers? (Things you were saying were obsolete, right?) Also, drones are relatively new, and I would guess not as affordable and therefore not as available as you would like them to be. And anyways there are simply so many factors involved that a military cannot just switch over to the latest and greatest thing with a snap of one's fingers, let alone every single time there's an upgrade.

But I'll humor you even. If everything that militaries around the world have are so obsolete, could you provide me with a list of technologies, weapons platform, etc, that they all ought to be outfitted with, and how they possibly afford the change over (That would include the cost of retraining a country's entire armed forces and restructing them). And you can just leave out and experimental items or things that are still in their testing phases. Those tech items simply aren't ready yet. Yes, I realize that this is practically an impossible request and that I am in actuality not even humoring you.


(1) Your dad got paid so he wasn't a volunteer in the way that a volunteer fire-fighter is a volunteer.
(2) A volunteer means that their motives are beyond reproach.
(3) If your father joined the military to do good then he was an idiot.
(4) That was in 1991 and since then no military has been stupid enough to fight America conventionally. Right now tanks are nothing but sitting ducks in Iraq. Try to keep up with current military affairs.
(5) So America should spend over a trillion dollars on the military every year because it might have to fight somebody with similar hardware and ethos? And who exactly would fight America on such terms? Actually I'm for this. America should become bankrupt in an attempt to defeat a phantom enemy. You know if I ever told somebody who has never heard of Americans about the idiocy of Americans they would never believe me.
(6) Drones are only useful for assassinations when used by America. Used against America they would be good against hard targets. Of course they're pretty expensive. Far too expensive for any current enemy of America's transgressions to afford, I'm sure.
(7) How much would it cost not to buy and constantly use expensive bombers, fighters, tanks, armoured vehicles, military bases, attack helicopters, carriers, battleships, et cetera. (Basically anything that isn't small arms or used for transport.) Oh yeah, nothing.

Also, I forgot to mention in my previous post but you confused morality with affability.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
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Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:44 PM

View PostDeucaon, on 12 January 2011 - 06:03 PM, said:

(1) Your dad got paid so he wasn't a volunteer in the way that a volunteer fire-fighter is a volunteer.
(2) A volunteer means that their motives are beyond reproach.

What about a guy who volunteers to be a scout leader, and then he molests the boy scouts? Your definition of "volunteer" is a bit stupid. One does NOT need to have some lofty purpose in order to volunteer. One also does not need to be a dirty mercenary in order to reeive pay for labour. Are paid, full-time firefighters the scum of the earth for taking a paycheque? This is a stupid argument you're running.

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(3) If your father joined the military to do good then he was an idiot.

Yes, because he supported the military aims of one country over another, he must be an idiot. I suppose that means that the folks on the OTHER side of that conflict were noble idealists or something, and Zato's father was an unwitting dupe of some corporate system? We've seen these areguments before, and we didn't follow them the first time.

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(4) That was in 1991 and since then no military has been stupid enough to fight America conventionally. Right now tanks are nothing but sitting ducks in Iraq. Try to keep up with current military affairs.

This is classic irony. Tanks are targets of roadside bombs, yes, and they have no enemy counterpart. Anymore, I say: the Iraqi forces DID have tanks during the 2003 invasion, and the Abrams was useful in defeating them. Tanks are extremely useful to an invasion force, and from 2003-2005 the US army did not suffer a single casualty among its tank crews. Tanks are not very useful to an occupying force, so the US has little use for them now in that particular conflict, and yes they are sometimes targets. But to say that because the US is not currently invading Iraq, tanks must be outdated technology, you're just showing more and more an ignorance of how wars are still being fought today.

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(5) So America should spend over a trillion dollars on the military every year because it might have to fight somebody with similar hardware and ethos? And who exactly would fight America on such terms? Actually I'm for this. America should become bankrupt in an attempt to defeat a phantom enemy. You know if I ever told somebody who has never heard of Americans about the idiocy of Americans they would never believe me.

The operating budget for the United States Military is about 700 Billion. The bulk of that is spent on employee salaries and housing. Stripping the military of all of its artillery and reducing it to footsoldiers with rifles would save money, yes, but not the kind of money you think. And of course without jets, aircraft carriers, bases, missiles, and all the other things you think they can do without, the US military would have considerably less power. Why do attacks on US soldiers only last minutes? Because an airborne response would be devastating. How long would these attacks last if the US had no capacity for airborne respose? Would they be more dangerous for American soldiers, or less? Explain.

Where you come up with your arguments or the numbers for them is anyone's guess. We know you have access to the Internet, or you wouldn't be here.

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(6) Drones are only useful for assassinations when used by America. Used against America they would be good against hard targets. Of course they're pretty expensive. Far too expensive for any current enemy of America's transgressions to afford, I'm sure.
(7) How much would it cost not to buy and constantly use expensive bombers, fighters, tanks, armoured vehicles, military bases, attack helicopters, carriers, battleships, et cetera. (Basically anything that isn't small arms or used for transport.) Oh yeah, nothing.

6) Maybe. so what?
7) To do what you suggest would be to lose military power and to surrender foreign holdings. In other words, to give up being a world power. That would cost considerably more than "nothing." Again you are defying commone sense with a blindingly stupid argument, and yet you try to deliver it in a condescending tone!
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#24 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 04:11 PM

I think Deuacon';s argument is going to be that it would be morally better for hte world at large if the US did this. However, that would be a departure from his financial and military argument (that the US' massive military is outdated and ineffective) which suggests that the US would be MORE effective with the amorality if they subscribed to his idea of sending in the unemployed in human waves (or sending them to slave labor camps)

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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