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Rand-ist Paradise established in Colorado No Taxes! Also, no police or street lights.... woops

#1 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 12:19 AM

http://www.denverpos...ews/ci_14303473

Short version: Colorado Springs is noted for being a conservative bastion. Its apparently one big tea party down there all day, every day. For those not lucky enough to know, THIS
Posted Image
is a tea bagger. Please dont look directly at it or it will think you are a ham snack. These people arent sure how government works, but they do know that at some point in time people threw away tea to protest taxes and keep their guns, and now they do the same thing, only substitute throwing away tea for being obnoxious and sometimes wielding assault rifles near the president.

So, they pay 70 dollars a year per each house they own. The city said they might need to triple that figure. And, by god, if a man owns more than two houses, he could pay over a thousand dollars a year! FASCISM! COMMUNISM! LIBERALISM! OBSTETRICIANISM!

For some insane reason, anything anyone does, ever, has to be put to public vote there. Needless to say the people with money beat the people without money, so now Colorado Springs will no longer pick up trash in its parks, mow/water the grass, turn on street lights, or maintain a full complement of police officers. They auctioned off their police helicopters on ebay.

Now, Ayn Rand, the tea baggers, and their representative(s) on the forums [Read: Deuacon] now have their utopia. The bright side is that we wont be able to see the corpses of the folks killed on unpatrolled streets or the homeless who freeze to death for lack of publicly funded shelters, because they cant afford to turn on the streetlights. The people needed some help paying for needed services and, true to form, Atlas Shrugged.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 04 February 2010 - 12:27 AM

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#2 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:02 AM

Well, well well, isn't that a compassionate conservatism coming true?

JM - people are idiots. They want to have low taxes AND all the amenities of a well-run city. Why should you be concerrned, anyway. They WANTED it themselves! If they voted for it, (and people with money beat people without money) it means people with money are in the majority, right? So. THey kill two birds. Firtly, they save money, to have even more, secondly, come harsh winter, there will be no more homeles people polluting the purse streets of conservatims.

Just one thing.. :unsure: what does OBSTETRICIANISM has got to do with it?
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#3 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 12:15 PM

I'm on the same side as MC here, really I am, but I gotta go off on a typically Canadian (read leftist) angle, and worry about the children, especially the young girls. No street lights? People losing their jobs? Fewer COPS? Yup, rapes will be up. And some of these young girls didn't vote. The young women, maybe, but I'm not gonna go so far as to say they had their rape coming.

I know, I know, they just shouldn't go out at night, or dress like that, and all the things we say when women suffer attacks that they could have avoided if they weren't so selfish.

Compassionately, I hope this doesn't get too bad. But yeah, some of me is curious to see what this social experiment will determine, and to what extent the Conservatives will spin it to say that it's somehow still Obama's fault.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#4 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 01:10 PM

Civ - really, I though it was rather clear that what I wrote was deeply sarcastic, right? Oh it wasn't clear ...Anyway, it was sarcastic *sigh*.
Being a woman myself it would be plain stupid of me to support switching off the streetlights at night.

No, I just pity the underprivileged, because those with money will survive, and maybe end up with more money, but the rest will suffer. What bugs me, though, it that those underprivilegded cannot see beyond their own nose and support conservatism and buy their propaganda.

It is a difficult issue, anyway. While setting up a social suport system in a country, naturally you cannot make it so "water-tight", that only those who really need it benefit from it. You'll get tones on those who just take advantage because they are lazy and cunning. And they live on the taxes of those who are not so cheeky to abuse the system. But it does not mean that we should go back to industrial revolution social system, without protection of the poor and disabled.

Anyway, I am also curious how their little eexperiment ends up.
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#5 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 03:29 PM

MC- Yeah I think the primary backers of the lack of tax increases are folks who wear monacles. And when you look at it this is particularly good for them. People don't consume anything in parks or libraries! And consumption is absolutely necessary for our society to progress. I love new clothes, I love new clothes, ending is better than mending. Yes, by the Year of Our Ford 2011 I project that no one will bother with such sillyness as parks or other free entertainment, much to society's benefit! It took a re-reading of Brave New World to remind me just why Rand and her pals make no assurances for the maintainance of public parks and other services.

Civ- Every damn debate we have you get to play the Canada card. Hordes of well armed crack heads? You're in Canada. George Bush declares war on everything? Still in Canada. Wolves have religion? Not in Canada they don't. Rape becomes a common part of nightly commute? I'm still in Canada, lets have a beer and watch the olympics! Canada is still part of the world though, and when the apocalypse comes you guys will get it just as bad as the US for once...... Except the hordes of zombies that come for you will probably be more polite, and belong to unions so they can only eat a certain number of brains before taking a break.... Damn you!

Seriously though, I hadnt particularly wanted to think of what society minus cops minus street lights would add up to, but I think youre about on the money. Still, it should be harder for people to do drug deals in the dark, right?... Though with fewer police officers I guess they could just as well do it in the day time now. Hurray for freedom!

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#6 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 09:16 AM

In a "Randian" society there'd be taxes but they'd be considered rent. The difference being that they'd be based on market fluctuations rather than on arbitrary rules. Personally I don't care either way anymore. Everybody's either at the mercy of sociopathic industrialists, sociopathic bureaucrats or both. We need to do away with governments, cartels, corporations, unions and the rest of that crap. I'm sick of bullies. Give everybody a gun and let them sort it out. Nobodies going to fuck with that sweet old grandma if she's armed with a 22 calibre rifle.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
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#7 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 02:23 PM

Alright! Welcome to anarchism Deuacon. I was there about 7 or 8 years ago before I realized it was wholly unworkable and became an anarcho syndicalist and CPUSA member. Good show, no really I mean it. Clearly your ideas are progressing, and at some point you'll have a workable government system in mind and a more informed world view.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#8 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 10:41 PM

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 29 March 2010 - 05:23 AM, said:

Alright! Welcome to anarchism Deuacon. I was there about 7 or 8 years ago before I realized it was wholly unworkable and became an anarcho syndicalist and CPUSA member. Good show, no really I mean it. Clearly your ideas are progressing, and at some point you'll have a workable government system in mind and a more informed world view.

I suppose I'm an "anarcho-capitalist" in economical terms because said ideology doesn't conform to all my beliefs. Of course, as an "economic" "anarchist" I certainly wouldn't mind others having cooperative ownership of land. I doubt it'd be efficient in the long run but I wouldn't mind it. Live and let live, you know? Concerning politics the government should be as isolated from the people as much as possible. The government should continue to exist in order to keep other governments scared and to serve as an example of how stupid people can get when they start groups based on ideology or principles. Since everybody would be armed, such a government would be harmless. Unless it becomes democratic and tricks people into trusting it. Democracy is the most dangerous type of government since it gives tyrants a sense of legitimacy.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#9 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 11:54 PM

I really dont think just making sure everyone is armed would render the government helpless, democratic or no. A will to use those arms, etc, is required. And if youre going to back the militia deal, then why cant the strongest militia just take over and enforce whatever government they like?

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#10 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 12:04 AM

Granny's 22 is useless against young man's 22. He is faster and shoots granny. Compassionate conservative's 22 is right behind young man's, so he shoots him. In turn, horny schoolgirl turns her 22 on compassionate conservative, before she is gunned down by bored intellectual, who then skull-fucks her cause why not, yawn. Then along comes lonesome cowpoke ... honestly, can we have a conversation about anything without the nonsensical notion that everyone having a gun would mean that nobody would ever be shot? Lots of animals have teeth, yet there are still predator and prey. A well-armed populace is not the answer to economic and social problems. A well-organized government and economy is. A strong working class, regulation in corporate activity ... yeah yeah, I know, you disagree. Outsourcing all industry, using slave labour, and then arming all of the poor will make society run smoothly and everyone will be happy (the ones that survive).
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#11 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 01:14 PM

Clearly animals having teeth are not enough. They should be outfitted with guns, or the larger ones with rocket launchers. Get on this stuff, scientists!

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#12 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 09:48 PM

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 02:54 PM, said:

I really dont think just making sure everyone is armed would render the government helpless, democratic or no.

Don't worry, eventually you'll mentally grow up and believe what I believe. (I'm taking a piss at your thinking that there is progressive thought concerning politics and it doesn't depend on where a person's priorities lie.)

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 02:54 PM, said:

A will to use those arms, etc, is required. And if youre going to back the militia deal, then why cant the strongest militia just take over and enforce whatever government they like?

If they became the government, they'd be countered by an armed populace. Duh. And why would a militia take power? A militia is an ad hoc organization.

View Postcivilian_number_two, on 01 April 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

Granny's 22 is useless against young man's 22. He is faster and shoots granny. Compassionate conservative's 22 is right behind young man's, so he shoots him. In turn, horny schoolgirl turns her 22 on compassionate conservative, before she is gunned down by bored intellectual, who then skull-fucks her cause why not, yawn.

The circle of death, isn't it beautiful?

View Postcivilian_number_two, on 01 April 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

Then along comes lonesome cowpoke ... honestly, can we have a conversation about anything without the nonsensical notion that everyone having a gun would mean that nobody would ever be shot? Lots of animals have teeth, yet there are still predator and prey.

But animals can't use guns. Guns are the great equalizer.

View Postcivilian_number_two, on 01 April 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

A well-armed populace is not the answer to economic and social problems. A well-organized government and economy is. A strong working class, regulation in corporate activity ... yeah yeah, I know, you disagree.

I don't agree with regulation, I agree with elimination. Don't a douchebag and just assume my beliefs.

View Postcivilian_number_two, on 01 April 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

Outsourcing all industry, using slave labour, and then arming all of the poor will make society run smoothly and everyone will be happy (the ones that survive).

I'm a protectionist, genius. Again, don't assume.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#13 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 12:13 AM

I didn't know whether to disregard this but fuck it, let's have some retorting.

View Postcivilian_number_two, on 01 April 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

A well-organized government and economy is.

He who would sacrifice freedom for stability will lose both. This might come as a shock but a good chunk of industrialists, through lobby groups, seek to impose governmental control. Not only so they can monopolize the market but also to create "stability." I love that word. It's as if people think that stability can be enforced or that the government can enforce it. What do you end up getting? An economy depression.

View Postcivilian_number_two, on 01 April 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

A strong working class, regulation in corporate activity ... yeah yeah, I know, you disagree.

As I wrote earlier, I do disagree with regulation because I'm in favour of elimination. But as for a strong working class, I'm actually against economic caste systems which are enforced and propagandized by the government and it's cohorts. I'm for a classless economy. The idea of class was created by nobles. Since then it was used by the bourgeois as an argument that it should be extended to them, that they should be allowed to be "nobles." All class does it create an illusion of entitlement. It should be eliminated.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#14 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 02:25 AM

Quote

(I'm taking a piss at your thinking that there is progressive thought concerning politics and it doesn't depend on where a person's priorities lie.)


What I was saying was that you're apparently, hopefully, working towards some sort of a system of govenment that is servicable. I don't really care if its communism, capitalism, fascism, whatever, so long as you eventually figure out an idea other than "guns and flat taxes for all"

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If they became the government, they'd be countered by an armed populace. Duh. And why would a militia take power? A militia is an ad hoc organization.


That populace has to have some kind of driving force uniting it or they'll just die one by one. If the militia that decides to take over likes apples, and the one that defeats them likes oranges, the new government will be orange. They would do this because people like power, and oranges too.

Elimination of what?

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Don't a douchebag and just assume my beliefs.


I promise I won't a douche bag.

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I'm actually against economic caste systems which are enforced and propagandized by the government and it's cohorts.


Thats not how working class works at all. Maybe if you'd read Marx instead of thinking that reading political philosophy was for losers, you'd know that class consciousness leads to collective bargaining which is necessary for workers to have any power against those who control the means of production.

PS: If more people started writing about me in their signatures, I'd realize I was doomed to be ignored and leave.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 02 April 2010 - 02:29 AM

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#15 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 10:01 PM

Let's brainstorm for a second. You can do that, right? I mean, do you need a brain to brainstorm? Anyway, let's pretend that we're in an economic depression and that we're leading the government that's pressed to solve this depression. This one isn't caused by the introduction of machinery, by the spending sprees initiated by the government during an economic downturn or by a group of morons burning crops and confiscating private property. Let's pretend that this is a natural economic depression, for argument sake since there isn't such a thing. What's the problem? Massive unemployment, inflation of gathered goods and deflation of manufactured goods. Well, the last two things is entirely dependent on how many people are employed and how much demand there is so we'll just ignore them. That leaves unemployment. How to solve unemployment? Well, the only reasonable thing you can do is remove the minimum wage, ban women from working unskilled jobs, depopulate urban areas and run programs teaching people how to grow their own fruits or vegetables in their backyards or on their balconies. In other words do what a government isn't made to do which is to reduce it's control, recognise natural social hierarchies, reduce the consolidation of the population under it's control and teach people to be self-sustainable. This is why I don't envy any official. If they had any principles when they became an official, they've lost it long ago or have been severally sidelined.

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

What I was saying was that you're apparently, hopefully, working towards some sort of a system of govenment that is servicable. I don't really care if its communism, capitalism, fascism, whatever, so long as you eventually figure out an idea other than "guns and flat taxes for all"

Moron, I'm against taxation. I don't know where you got flat taxes. But yeah, the government can invest into private property, buy bonds, trade with other governments, rent out land and do a whole bunch of other things that not only produce revenue but don't require you waiting a year for it. It doesn't need taxes. It only uses taxes to increase it's stranglehold on their subjects.

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

That populace has to have some kind of driving force uniting it or they'll just die one by one. If the militia that decides to take over likes apples, and the one that defeats them likes oranges, the new government will be orange. They would do this because people like power, and oranges too.

Except it's not two militias. It's a whole bunch of militias. Then there's those who've left or were never part of the militias but are armed. There'd be a balance of power with no militia or group becoming the "new government."

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

Elimination of what?

Corporations, unions and other cartels. Also government, but that's a given. There can't be a "free flow of capital" if organizations are constantly trying to monopolize said capital, right?

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

I promise I won't a douche bag.

I don't trust you to keep your word.

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

Thats not how working class works at all. Maybe if you'd read Marx instead of thinking that reading political philosophy was for losers, you'd know that class consciousness leads to collective bargaining which is necessary for workers to have any power against those who control the means of production.
PS: If more people started writing about me in their signatures, I'd realize I was doomed to be ignored and leave.

Collective bargaining? You mean some selfish pricks deciding how much I earn and how long I work regardless of how hard I work or how long I wish to work? Yeah, sounds great. Thanks Marx for giving stupid and corrupt people ideas. Anyway, you don't need unions because there's such a thing called wage inflation. What you need to do is stop wage controls and try to limit the number of unemployed people (the best amount being none) by reducing tax on businesses.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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