[Just your average movie goer]

Adapting The Lord of the Rings into a movie series was a daunting task - and for many years was believed to be impossible, due to scope and complexity of the story.

Peter Jackson made movie history by changing that - and created a movie trilogy so amazing, it left the Star Wars trilogy far behind (in my humble opinion, I should probably add, to avoid potentially stupid arguments arising).

The first of these films, The Fellowship of the Ring, is a flawless masterpiece... one of those rare gems... a perfect movie. I could not have envisioned a greater screen adaptation of that book. It took the book and made something that to many people, myself included, was far more amazing. This was truly a monumental achievement.

However, as most of us know, the second and third film were not on the same level as the first. Overall, it is a great trilogy - and the second and third movies are still amazing feats. However, they could have been a lot better.

The Two Towers suffers from a false climax in the Frodo and Sam story, being taken to Osgiliath by Faramir and then being released. It lacked dramatic impact. The ending in the book, with the fight with Shelob and Frodo being carried off by the orcs, with Sam in pursuit would have been a far more fitting end to the movie as well. Peter Jackson argued that it was chronologically incorrect to have the Shelob encounter at the same time as the end of the Helm's Deep battle... but the chronology at this stage is not that important. It only matters when the armies of the west march on Mordor, because Frodo and Sam were then at Mt Doom.

The Return of the King suffers because it is horribly rushed and many good scenes were sacrificed to fit other scenes in. The worst example was that a non-essential prologue to the movie, about Gollum's backstory, was included while a very central scene involving the defeat of Saruman was excluded.

If the movies could be made again, here may be an alternative approach -

The Fellowship of the Ring obviously would remain the same. The alternative approach begins with The Two Towers.

- Keep that prologue with Gandalf fighting the Balrog and the scenes introducing Gollum. They were great.

- Remove the unnecessary orcs that joined up with the Urak-hai. They weren't properly introduced in the movie. In the book, they were there for the attack on the fellowship. But as they weren't there in the movie, then they don't really have any right to join up later. They're Sauron's boys anyway. Have the riders of Rohan attack the Urak-hai encampment and have an Urak-hai chase Merry and Pippin into the woods.

- Remove the ents altogether. They didn't work in the book and they don't work in the movie either. They are too far-fetched and they undermine the tension by providing the peoples of Middle Earth with amazing supernatural allies. When the good guys are too strong, the tension in a movie suffers. No, let the people of Middle Earth take care of themselves.

- Have Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas meet Gandalf the White AND Merry and Pippin. Then all of them ride to Edoras. This could really tie in better to the first movie as well, because when Saruman sends the Urak-hai army to destroy Rohan, in this version, he will believe that the Ring is there, giving him further incentive for his plan.

- Cut down the Aragorn/Arwen flashbacks. They were too cumbersome and slowed the movie down too much. They can have the scene where Elrond convinces Arwen to leave for the ships though - that was good.

- DEFINITELY include the flashback scene of Faramir and Boromir that was included in the Extended Edition. This should have been there when we saw it at the cinemas.

- Have Faramir release Frodo and Sam in Ithillien, instead of dragging them to Osgiliath. We can now take quite a long cut away from the two hobbits so we can watch the battle of Helm's Deep without interruption.

- After the battle of Helm's Deep, have the riders of Rohan pursue the remaining Urak-hai back to Isengard, kill all the orcs there and then have the scene with Saruman's death that was cut from the Return of the King movie.

- End the movie with the encounter with Shelob and the orcs taking Frodo away.
A nice cliff hanger. None of that crap about Gollum splitting the hobbits up.

Return of the King

- Have the stuff with the palantir and the need for Pippin to go to Minas Tirith.

- Sam rescues Frodo.

- Have Gothmog as a human. Don't have Gandalf express fear of the Witch King. Gandalf has killed a balrog. He should not fear such a lowly badguy as the Witch King. But their confrontation should be included.

- Have Denethor find out that Faramir let the hobbits go, so there's some convincing reason why he is so angry with him.

- Leave out the army of the dead. Have Aragorn ride to Gondor with the Rohirrim - and have the other Dunedain rangers join him as well.

- Take the time to show Gondor's reaction to the return of its king.

- Include the houses of healing.

- Include the mouth of Sauron.





Ok, that's all for now. This is taking me too long...

[Despondent]

I'm embarrassed to ask. And I consider myself ("Stamp this in your mind, Christopher") to have a pretty good memory (sorry I haven't posted in childhood glimpses) but what again was the "mouth of Sauron?"

[Supes]

Just a very quick reply as I have to finish up work:

- Remove the ents altogether. They didn't work in the book and they don't work in the movie either. They are too far-fetched and they undermine the tension by providing the peoples of Middle Earth with amazing supernatural allies. When the good guys are too strong, the tension in a movie suffers. No, let the people of Middle Earth take care of themselves.

I disagree. I very much enjoyed the Ents in the book and was a big fan of them in the movie. I thought they were handled very well by Jackson and as such would not like to see them removed. I'll ellaborate later.

[Just your average movie goer]

Fair enough, Supes. I can understand that many people would probably like them.

Despondent, it's okay to ask. The mouth of Sauron was a guy who came out at the black gates when the armies marched on it. He carried Frodo's mithril vest, that was taken from him when he was captured by the orcs.

He basically destroyed everyone's hope, making them all believe that the quest had failed and they were all going to die. This would have had a lot of dramatic impact if it was used in the movie.

[Despondent]

Thanks.

Well, I'll agree that it could have had an emotional impact but on the condition that in the film, like in the book, we (the audience) have no freaking idea what was going on with Frodo and Sam at that moment.

I liked the ents. I was always unable to picture them while reading, so I was pleased to see them in action. But I'm with you on most of the Arwen/Aragorn flashbacks.

[Just your average movie goer]

I think I better amend the thing with the ents then - if so many people like them, then I guess I'll have to swallow my tongue and leave them in. Would it be alright if I bulked them up a bit and made them look a bit more realistic? I thought they looked too soft and rubbery in the movie and were a bit on the skinny side.

Well, I'll agree that it could have had an emotional impact but on the condition that in the film, like in the book, we (the audience) have no freaking idea what was going on with Frodo and Sam at that moment.

Absolutely! In fact, you could go all the way up to that scene without showing anything from Frodo and Sam's side of the story....

actually, Tolkien's style of doing all the Aragorn and co. stuff first and all the Frodo and Sam stuff second, while The Two Towers was better off without it, would work really well in the film medium for Return of the King.

[civilian_number_two]

Sure, why not?

FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING:

The EE scenes that made Lothlorien seem less a creepy place and more beautiful and wondrous, wer all tragiclly cut from the theatrical release. The theatrical FOTR was too breathless; even Rivendell seemed like dinner with the inlaws. Liked the intensity created by cutting out the Old forest, and losing all comic relief from Bree, but after that, a rest here and there would have done some good.

THE TWO TOWERS:

Ending it with Shelob would have given Frodo and Sam nothing to do in the third book apart from watch Gollum steal the ring and then die. I hated Osgilliath as well, however, and didn't like the change of character imposed on Faramir. What? his love of his brother convinces him to release the hobbits? Bah! He was stronger than Boromir, with no delusions of grandeur. 'Nuff said.

Cutting the Ents out would have been flat out nuts. Find me a purist who wouldn't flame you over that. They were integral to the story of Isengard, and frankly a lot of the reason the novel was popular in the sixties.

scenes you like: the balrog fight, and the Faramir flashback, were entirely screenplay. Tolkien did not have the novel-writing good sense to put the fight with the Balrog on screen, nor did he give Faramir Denethor Boromir enough backstory.

scene you wanted: Saruman's death was entirely invented.

scene you wanted cut: yes, yes, Aragorn pretending to die, and the flashbacks to more of Arwen, the Appendix character that made it big. All should have been cut.

Helm's deep: granted, it's not too well played in the novel either, but I'd have loved a credible medieval siege.

RETURN OF THE KING:

I think the army of the dead was an odd touch in the novel, and was glad to see it in the movie just to see it. Would have liked a physical army instead of the swiffer mop of orc cleansing. Would also have cut the whole "Legolas is God" nonsense, but that goes without saying.

I liked all of the interaction between Sam and Frodo, but didn't like that Gandalf led the men to their deaths. Sure, it played up the dire circumstance, but this is Gandalf! He had eagles in mind all along!

[Just your average movie goer]

Yeah, they downplayed Gandalf a lot in the Return of the King movie and I'm not sure why they did it. One of the parts I loved about the book was how at the end, it was revealed that Gandalf really had this under control the whole time and that he had orchestrated everything that led to their victory.

But in the movie, he was full of self-doubt and often reduced to just fighting orcs. I think he's too powerful to be fighting orcs... it's a bit degrading and a major step-down from killing the balrog.

And Civilian, you made me reconsider The Fellowship of the Ring by mentioning the Extended Edition because I suddenly remembered the gift giving sequence that had been cut from the theatrical version.

I also liked seeing more of Celeborn (Galadriel's husband). It was an especially good scene when he warned Aragorn about Urak-hai and that they were being tracked. It added a lot of tension - as did the fight between Aragorn and Boromir the night before the fateful battle.

Actually, it's kind of funny why I run back to the theatrical edition so often though.... it's all because of the tiniest thing. I preferred the music that was used as Lurtz came down the hill and aimed his arrow at Boromir. It was the heavy thud of a lower end piano key, like a heart beat almost (forgive me if I'm reading too much into this but I found this soundtrack to be so amazing and dramatically meaningful)... and as the arrow is released... silence.

They changed the music for this part in the Extended Edition and it just didn't work as well. Although other than that, you're right. It is better as it gave the movie time to breathe. I also liked Lurtz licking that knife before he threw it at Aragorn. For the love of all that's good in the world, why did they cut that out in the theatrical edition? It was just so intimidating.

Actually, on the whole concept of letting the movies breathe more, I would have liked to have some of the scenic shots last a bit longer too. So often in the films, I would see some of the most incredible scenery I've ever seen in my life and I really wanted to have some time to look at it. It was just so beautiful. But these shots were always ending so quickly, I never really had time to enjoy them.

And afterall, isn't part of the Lord of the Rings' charm about this beautiful world that Tolkien created? I would have loved to have more time to take all of that scenery in.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 18 June 2004 - 10:39 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Sorry, I should also add that some of the ideas that were entirely screenplay were actually quite good. Killing Saruman makes sense. In the book, I couldn't believe that they let this guy just walk away after he had caused so much chaos and was responsible for the deaths of a large number of good people.

I'm thinking about an ideal movie trilogy, using a mixture of the things that were great in the books and the things that were great in the movies.

Part of my ideas, like cutting out the army of the dead, are also related to making the movies have shorter running lengths. The Return of the King was actually considerably shorter than the other books, so I was surprised that it ended up being so long (and still missing large chunks). Most of this has to do with that pointless made-up plot about Gollum tricking Frodo into sending Sam away... but some of the fault can be placed on the fact that they did not cover as much as they should have in The Two Towers.

As for Frodo and Sam having nothing to do in Return of the King if they had encountered Shelob already, that wouldn't be a big problem for me. They had nothing to do in the book either. And they could show nothing of them for the first half of the movie - and just concentrate entirely on the events leading up to and following the battle of the Pellenor fields. When they reach the Black Gate and encounter the mouth of Sauron, then they can cut back to Sam rescuing Frodo from the orcs and follow them on their journey to Mt Doom, catching up with the the Aragorn and co. plot thread.

And during that, I would really love to see one particular scene from the novel -

The big orc and the little orc who have that argument that ends with the big orc unsuccessfully trying to kill the little orc - then making a run for it before the being shot down by the little guy. That would have been great. And I would love to hear that little orc's line about the nazgul - "I hear they killed Number One and I hope it's true." and the line about Gollum "But what's that funny little creature got to do with it all, that gobbler with the flapping hands?"

I will be ecstatic if that makes it to the Extended Edition. Fingers crossed.

[Despondent]

Good points all.

I liked your thanks and hopes, JYAMG, of the silent arrow and the flapping hands.

Civ., you really cracked me up. Swiffer Mop? Dinner with the in-laws?

terrific