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Little Oddities in the Star Wars Trilogy

#61 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 18 February 2010 - 07:36 AM

The chief problems arise from Lucas making it up as he went along. In STAR WARS, Vader was not Luke's father. In EMPIRE, he was, but Vader clearly had misgivings about giving him over to the Emperor. At this level, it could be acceptible that he had known all along that Luke was on Tatooine and that he had kept quiet about it. Leia was not Luke's sister, and there was "another" hope for the rebellion somewhere out there. In some conversations, this "other" was Luke's actual father, Vader's claims be damned, and in others this was a different person altogether, possibly the hero of the the sequel trilogy. In JEDI, Leia became Luke's sister, and she had vague childhood memories of their mother. Vader as well as the Emperor had no knowledge of her existence. When they found out about her they didn't really care. In PHANTOM MENACE, it turns out that Anikin grew up on Tatooine. That's ok because it's more or less stated that he did in STAR WARS; however, in that film it's also implied that he left with Obi Wan to fight in some war, against his brother Owen's wishes. All of that dialogue from the original film is rendered nonsense by this prequel. That or the prequel is nonsense. Also, midichlorians and the Jedi all hang out together in a clubhouse in the city of Trantor. The next movie has something about gladiators and all the stormtroopers being clones of Boba Fett's dad, which is hilarious. The last one has Luke and Leia's mom dying in childbirth, meaning that Leia was lying to Luke, which is a horrifically bitchy way to behave when your long-lost brother asks you a really serious question in the middle of a military maneuvre from which he may not return.

But you know, this stuff all comes from a single and perfect outline he made thirty years ago. And it's all based on mythology and stuff, not Flash Gordon, the Lensmen and the Foundation trilogy.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#62 User is offline   azerty Icon

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Posted 18 February 2010 - 02:40 PM

Yep.

If the characters in Star Wars speak English (and we know they do, because the ones who don't speak English are subtitled in English) then why do they write in that Jibber Jabber script? And if they write Jibber Jabber, why don't they call an X wing and a Y wing whatever X and Y are, since X and Y aren't in their vocabulary?

Really, what was the point of removing "Tractor Beam" from the tractor beam anyway?
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#63 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 18 February 2010 - 09:14 PM

Oh, it's abundantly clear that he made it up as he went along, and that he didn't bother to refer back to his own films and scripts when making it up.
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#64 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 01:08 AM

There's also an element of laziness in it too - well, at least when it comes to Return of the Jedi. Have a look at the interview with Gary Kurtz that I mentioned on page one of this thread (there's a link there too). It definitely seemed like Lucas didn't want to put any effort into Star Wars any more so if Return of the Jedi feels like it's just trying to tie up every loose thread in the most effortless manner imaginable, that's because it is.

Luke's unfinished Jedi training? Yoda tells him that he just has to face Vader again to do that (which is the complete opposite of what he said in the last movie). And if that hasn't solved the problem, Yoda dies minutes afterwards. Thread wrapped up. Moving on.

The other? Oh yeah, that's kind of awkward. Let's make it Leia. Great - no new actor/actress, no introduction necessary. Weaving it into the story could be a problem though. Let's see. Obi Wan turns up again and explains it to Luke. Neat. Well, that takes care of that.

Vader, the struggle of the Rebellion against the Empire... that could potentially run on for quite a while. Let's see. Vader's dead. The Emperor's dead and let's assume that the average audience will believe that an organisation that controls numerous worlds is toppled after one military defeat.

Let's keep the production in California to cut down costs too. Tunisia can be replaced with a bit of Californian desert and let's make just one new world that resembles Yosemite National Park - but don't film any dramatic shots of the waterfalls or the hills because that takes too long. Done.



And now another oddity:

The Millenium Falcon - fully crewed... a great idea poorly executed.

When Chewbacca is introduced as the first mate on a ship with two crew members, it is a little strange. However, we can let it slide as Han probably doesn't need a full crew for his usual jobs... but when we see that the Falcon has two gun wells and two additional crew stations in the cockpit, we wonder how cool this ship would be if it did have a full crew.

One of the few things that Return of the Jedi did that I liked was that it tried to show us how this might look. Unfortunately, the operative word is tried. It doesn't work however because it is horribly done. First of all, the other crew members are wearing commando gear making them look as though the only reason they are there is because they missed the shuttle when Han took the rest of their friends down. Secondly, they don't actually do anything. One of them just sits in the background, looking side to side in a leisurely fashion with a happy smile on his face... looking for all the world like a kid who's been allowed to visit the cockpit because it's his birthday. The other guy we see is even more strange. Whatever he's doing, he doesn't seem to be able to stay in one place to do it. He keeps coming and going all the time. I don't know why but I've always imagined that he's coming in to see if Lando or Nien Numb would like some coffee.
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#65 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:22 AM

Oh man, RotJ is just the height of laziness. It starts off by taking us back to freakin' Tattooine, which is just absurd. There's simply no good reason for the film to have to be there. It's not like ANH established that Jabba is based on Tattooine; in fact, it makes little sense that if he was that Han Solo would just be chillaxing in the cantina basically down the street like it's no big deal that he's got a bounty on his head. Sure, I guess you could argue that Jabba is there because it's supposed to be an out of way planet away from the eyes of the government and law enforcement, but Lucas totally undermines that by having scenes on the planet in FIVE of the six SW movies. ANH should be the ONLY time that we're "on" Tatooine outside of maybe a brief scene at the end of part III where it establishes that that's where Obi-Wan goes to hide Luke. Movies set in a huge galaxy with the budget they have should not keep going back to the same desert planet. Vader should not be from there. There's no reason for Jabba to be there. It's ridiculously uncreative laziness.

And the scene between Obi-Wan and Luke in this movie is just appalling. It should shown in film classes as the cardinal sin in terms of defying the "show, don't tell" rule of filmmaking. It's incredible that a film actually stops everything dead so that two characters can sit on a log for what seems like ten minutes and do nothing but explain away the filmmaker's contradictions, screwups and flights of fancy. It's one thing to have a scene like the one just before that where you have two characters mulling things over (Luke and Yoda) because it's framed by something actually occuring in Yoda's death (even though Yoda dying is completely unecessary and pointless except for cheaply tugging on the audience's heartstrings because the cute Muppet dies. It would be much more meaningful for Yoda to die, if he must die, at the hands of the Empire or Vader himself. This would further fuel the conflict of whether or not Luke will be able to keep from turning to the dark side).

And the Falcon being in the final space battle doesn't even make much sense. I mean, what good is it? It's basically a cargo ship. Yeah, it's got two piddling turrets on it, but it's basically just a big fat target otherwise. It would make much more sense (and explain all the commandos onboard, though not their green camo outfits!) if the Falcon (and other small, fast transport ships) was there to storm aboard Imperial vessels and then take them over. It would have been much cooler if Lando and co. had taken over a Star Destroyer and then the command tower of the Super Star Destroyer from behind by Lando's ship right as the SSD was about take out Ackbar's ship. Cheesy coincidence, sure, but it would have been a lot more plausible and badass than the SSD being taken out by a single out of control fighter that somehow kamikazes the entire control tower, which then inexplicably causes the entire SSD to plow into the Death Star (with one of the worst effects in the series, too). What, they don't have backup controls anywhere else on that giant ship? And how would blowing up the control tower cause it to turn off and slam into the Death Star? Its not like the thing is driven with a steering wheel and the helmsman turned it at the last second as he blew up. And hell, you'd think the SSD crashing into the Death Star would do a lot of damage to the only half-finished and largely exposed Death Star given how huge the SSD is. It's ridiculous that it goes up like a roman candle just because it's tip touches the Death Star when it's far more likely that it would actually plow through much of the DS and probably basically tear each other apart.

But yeah, the Falcon; it's goofy as hell that it's in the final battle and that it flies into the Death Star itself. I can buy there being room for the smaller fighters...but for a cargo ship? Good thing the tunnel was built specifically to accomadate a ship just as wide as the Falcon (but not any higher!).

This post has been edited by MyPantsAreOnFire: 19 February 2010 - 11:32 AM

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#66 User is offline   Mr Pye Icon

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 06:17 PM

IMO what doesn't make sense with the Falcon is that if it is supposed to be a cargo ship it is very small. Not much bigger than a one man fighter. I suppose it is like a space version of a Lorry, though why anyone would wan't to use Lorries in space is perplexing. Han uses it as smuggler ship so depending on the value of his cargo he may not need a lot of storage, but since dedicated smuggler vessels are unlikely to be manufactured, the question is what was the original purpose of a design like the Falcon? Was it built for the future package service?
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#67 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 08:27 PM

I agree with the nonsense of teh Falcon being in the final battle. That was silly, indulgent, and many other pejorative descriptives. But I don't believe that it's necessarily silly that a ship like the Falcon exist in the first place. If the fuel is cheap, and we can just decide that that is so, then there's no reason to make small faster-than-light ships. The Falcon could have been the equivalent of a courier van. In a universe where messages travel at light speed but spaceships can be designed to travel faster than light, the value of a small courier ship like the Falcon isn't hard to imagine.

Also, it's space opera. You don;t have to look for a good scientific answer, even if it's fun to do and not hard in this case. But space opera coan't forgive lazy writing, which is what got the Falcon into the Death Star's innards.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#68 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 11:30 PM

It's true, it's functional in terms of being pretty easily accepted in its role at face value, though it certainly doesn't hold up to much practical examination. There doesn't seem to be much room on it for passengers (hell, where do Han or Chewie even sleep on it?) or cargo so it doesn't seem too practical for significant amounts of either. It doesn't seem to be very well armed at all, though that makes sense if it's designed for speed above all else. And while a role as a courier ship makes sense to us, it doesn't seem to be Han's typical job given the context of how Obi Wan has to convince him to take them on and the whole mess with Jabba sounds like it's over a pretty sizable cargo of something being dumped. It seems that Lucas was trying to establish that Han was a smuggler of illicit goods and not typically just a courier of relatively small deliveries and definitely not ferrying people around.
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#69 User is offline   Supes Icon

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 04:23 AM

Here's one that occurred to me today very early on in Star Wars. When Luke is talking to Owen and Beru he starts to make his case for transmitting his application to the Academy "this year". Now I'm assuming this Academy is the Imperial Academy as at this point in time they do seem to be running everything and I cant see him openly discussing joining a Rebel Academy. In just a few short scene later on Obi Wan is convincing him to join him and learn the ways of the Force. Luke states, "It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it."

Now that's a pretty quick turn around in views in my opinion. Or was he just looking to bring down the establishment from the inside????
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#70 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:41 AM

View PostSupes, on 05 March 2010 - 04:23 AM, said:

Here's one that occurred to me today very early on in Star Wars. When Luke is talking to Owen and Beru he starts to make his case for transmitting his application to the Academy "this year". Now I'm assuming this Academy is the Imperial Academy as at this point in time they do seem to be running everything and I cant see him openly discussing joining a Rebel Academy.


I always thought that this was just an Academy for pilots - not necessarily military academy. For commercial pilots, like Han Solo, they had to learn their flying somewhere, right? And even if you hate government, you have to get your education, not just by learning how to shoots rats in a remote farm, but to get license authorising you to fly spacecraft. We all hated communist Polish government in 1980s, but there was no question for me that this would somehow stop me from getting my degree, weven if all universities belonged to hated government.

Off topic (I hope you will forgive me, but these days there seem to be so few of us, so it does not warrant starting new topic or rooting up an old one)

I was putting trash in the bin a couple of days ago and it occured to me that at one point on our history, Poland HAD an elected 12-year-old girl for queen (atually, king to be precise)! How could I have missed it in all that heated discussion several years ago about elected queens! Of course, this was no mere girl, but Hedwig of Andegavenian dynasty, elected by Polish aristocracy and nobility to form a political alliance, and she was later married off to Lithuanian prince who became King of United Lithuania and Poland, so it does not justify the stupidity of having a custom of electing 12-year-old girl for two terms, apparently for no other purpose but to wear ludicrous wardrobe...

This post has been edited by Madam Corvax: 05 March 2010 - 07:42 AM

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#71 User is offline   Mr Pye Icon

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 09:32 AM

I'm also willing to bet the Polish aristocracy of the time didn't consult their twelve year old queen on matters of politics. But hey at least Padme gets to smear her face in white make up.

I always took Luke's line that he hates the empire lightly. It is implied in his tone and the way he casually throws it out that he means only, yeah I don't like them any more than you do, but what can I do about it? Each and everyone must live in their world, or become dangerous revolutionaries. We're not all cut out to be that.

And even Luke needs a personal loss from the Empire before he finalizes his deal with Obi.Wan.

This post has been edited by Mr Pye: 06 March 2010 - 09:34 AM

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#72 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 04:16 PM

View PostMr Pye, on 06 March 2010 - 09:32 AM, said:

I always took Luke's line that he hates the empire lightly. It is implied in his tone and the way he casually throws it out that he means only, yeah I don't like them any more than you do, but what can I do about it? Each and everyone must live in their world, or become dangerous revolutionaries. We're not all cut out to be that.

And even Luke needs a personal loss from the Empire before he finalizes his deal with Obi.Wan.


Sure thing - and that is what made original Star Wars so great that just about everyone was able to connect with the main character. I believe that it is only the redlettermedia guy who finally made me realise the idea that weird films need a normal person - "protagonist" to guide you through the story. Well Luke IS this normal farm boy, who has no particular beef with the Emprie, just tries to get onwith his life, stuck on this remote desert planet, longing for better things looking into double suns setting down on Tatooine.

Gee, I cannot wait for the upcoming review of AOC. It reminds me of the days when I was looking up the next installment of "Reasons to hate" and was bitterly disappointed when it was late by couple of hours.

There are similar reviews by confusedmatthew of prequels, but this guy does not use videoediting, just stationary images and his voice, so it is not nearly as good visually, but also makes some good points. He especially bitches about Jedi in prequels being a..holes concerned with border disputes and trade negotiations rather than helping oppressed slaves on tatooine.

Also confusedmatthew makes one good point, which I never thought about - why are Jedi concerned about separatist movement enough to join a war to stop Separatists. The Separatists were not trying to kill or invade anyone - they were trying to LEAVE the Republic. While , of course, this would piss any govenrment off no end when some of the states would try to leave (think the American Civil War), why would Jedi be concerned?

Thoughts, anyone?
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#73 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 06:04 PM

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense as to why the Jedis are automatically on the side of the Republic in the prequels. It just speaks to what was so brilliantly spelled out in the Redlettermedia review as to the difference between the prequels and the OT in regards to immediate impact. It's obvious right away that the Empire is evil, or at least oppressive. You have the immediate symbolism of the tiny Rebel ship being chased by the giant Star Destroyer. You're presented the Rebels with the closeups of their faces as they prepare to be boarded, and then the Imperials are introduced as cold, masked soldiers being lead by Vader. You see Vader mercilessly choking a prisoner to death. You see what happens to the Jawas and Luke's family when they get in the way. You see Leia's home planet being fragged for no real reason except to show off what the Empire can do. You hear about the senate being dissolved. There's no short order of very clear actions and lines in ANH that portrays the Empire as obviously being made up of bad, bad people. You don't have that at all in the prequels. The Trade Federation is far too vague to be a true "evil" enemy. Same with the Seperatists, and both groups are also arguably justified in their reasons for conflict. SW lends itself much more to have clearly defined bad guys and good guys.
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#74 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 11:51 PM

MC, I just LOVE that you're following redlettermedia. I knew you'd like it. Goofy jokes about casinos, spousal abuse and dirty old men aside, his writing is funny and the video editing, crude as it is, lends the proceedings a nice watchable pace. I think his review of STAR TREK: NEMESIS is is his opus magnus, but he certainly tries a lot harder with the PHANTOM MENACE. I too love the quickie film school game he plays with the protagonist, explaining it in his way to show that even a stupid erson could see what's wrong with TPM (althoughj it's clear he's not a stupid person, but a serious film nerd with a bone to pick).

I haven't seen AOTC of course, but my guess is the Jedi are concerned about separatists because Lucas thought that he needed something for the Jedi to be concerned about. And like the pod race in TPM, he figured if at least one character told us it was necessary and important, then we'd all just accept it at face value.

Laaaaaaa-zy! Now, who wants a pizza roll?
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#75 User is offline   Supes Icon

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 12:17 AM

View PostMadam Corvax, on 05 March 2010 - 07:41 AM, said:

I always thought that this was just an Academy for pilots - not necessarily military academy. For commercial pilots, like Han Solo, they had to learn their flying somewhere, right? And even if you hate government, you have to get your education, not just by learning how to shoots rats in a remote farm, but to get license authorising you to fly spacecraft. We all hated communist Polish government in 1980s, but there was no question for me that this would somehow stop me from getting my degree, weven if all universities belonged to hated government.



Hmmmm, you are probably right MC and I may in fact be slightly biased by EU references, but I always thought it was an "Imperial Academy". I'm certain that some point Han's history has him as a cadet in the Imperial Academy. For whatever reason he dropped out and went the route of the Scoundrel. Come to think of it this may in fact have come from the novels so yeah I may have taken some of that knowledge into subsequent viewings.
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