[SimeSublime]

My signature(not the Puffin bit, the customer bit)is possibly an example that. I've been using it for years, and I'm pretty sure that I made it up, but it sounds kind of familiar. Now, its gotten to the point that I'm not sure if its familiar because I've been using it for years, or because I inadvertantly stole it from somewhere else.

[Chyld]

Well, my comments about breasts still stands. Same principle, just with nipples on top.

I'm a horny adolescent, leave me alone!

[Supes]

OOOOH Mist...darling.
"memetic subjugation"!!!!! (wossat?)

People keep diaries, people reminisce, somewhere is something like truth, not the perfect truth, but enough to balance the victors truth.

In the long run we are often prsented with the "truth", but even these truths need to be questioned as they are based around personal biases and perceptions. Pontious Pilate in Jesus Christ Superstar says it quite well, "We both have truths, are mine the same as yours?"

It's only really by taking stock of everything presented that we are able to get a better understanding of what is truthful and what is fabrication or bias. The problem with this is that we are not always in a position to access all the data immediately. In the modern day with mass communication it is getting easier, but by the same token restrictions on information have been made tighter. People are more aware and thus try to cover up more.

For example, for a long time after WWII we were presented with the Allies version of the war. Text books, articles, reports and commentaries were written based on what allied soldiers said or allied commanders had experienced. It's only been fairly recently that more data has been made available about the experiences of the other side. The Germans, Italians and Japanese. As more information becomes available we get to develop a different picture of what had taken place and why people did what they did.

Also science itself has been able to contribute to these matters. I'll tell you later about some of the experiments done in the 50's and 60's that were designed to replicate the experiences of some of the German soldiers in WWII, and looked at why and how they could do some of the things they did.

More recently we have been able to get pictures of events more rapidly and thus form opinions through a more diverse range of data - from both sides. Iraq is the most obvious case in point. Had this war happened 60 years ago, we would have a very different perspective of what is right and wrong in this war.

der Mudda, I'm familiar with a quote by, George McGovern. It goes like this:
"I'm fed up to the ears with old men dreaming up wars for young men to die in." Is this the one you were thinking of, because I personally think it's a wonderful albeit sad but true quote?

Chyld, your comment about breast are indeed very valid. Breasts are actually quite difficult to identify in a line up and accurately put a face and name to them. I'm fairly sure that you can figure out why though with all the time spent trying to memorise what they look like.

Damn! Long post. Sorry people!

[Mist]

Supes: Vietnam is another good example of a war where information distribution wasn't what the government would have liked. Also, I like it when you make long posts because it makes me not feel like such a forum-hog/spammer thing. I can't wait to hear about the experiments for academic curiousity. I, obviously, don't actually enjoy finding out the depths of how things are made to suffer, but I don't think being entirely ignorant of events is a good thing, either.

Also, "subjugation" was just a word I chose. The key word was "memetic". I could have used "memetic subversion" or something of the like. "Subjugation" was merely the first word that popped into my head, so don't take it to be the scientific term. Just so you don't misunderstand.

[Supes]

Supes: Vietnam is another good example of a war where information distribution wasn't what the government would have liked.

Agreed! Vietnam is a great example, but I'd realised that I'd already gone on longr than intended so cut back the examples.

[SkinnedAlive]

I'll tell you later about some of the experiments done in the 50's and 60's that were designed to replicate the experiences of some of the German soldiers in WWII, and looked at why and how they could do some of the things they did.

Supes: Would you be refering to Milgram's obedience to authority experiments?

[Mist]

I think I've heard of those. Maybe...

Is that where they give average people authority as guards and some other average people the part of prisoners, and then they see what happens?

[SkinnedAlive]

No, that’s Zimbardo's prison experiment. In Milgram's experiments the participants were asked to give what they thought were increasingly worse electric shocks to somebody they thought was another participant until it seemed they were dead or unconscious. It's a lot more detailed than that but that’s the rough jist of it. The experiment is famous for being particularly unethical yet it did show conclusive results. Only around a third of the participants stopped before the end of the experiment. There were many variations with different results and it has been repeated quite a few times but on the whole results show a high level of obedience.

That probably made no sense as an explanation, google it if you're confused.

[Mist]

It made sense, but I'm craving details now, and I have work tomorrow morning. Therefore, work wins out and I shall study up on these experiments at a later time along with the tidbit about memories being messed up by remembering them. Toodles, good night, and thanks, skinny.

This post has been edited by Mist: 17 June 2004 - 03:43 AM

[SimeSublime]

Sorry about the lack of info on my one, but I only saw it in a some science magazine that was lying in the waiting room for course advising sessions at uni.

[Supes]

I'll tell you later about some of the experiments done in the 50's and 60's that were designed to replicate the experiences of some of the German soldiers in WWII, and looked at why and how they could do some of the things they did.

Supes: Would you be refering to Milgram's obedience to authority experiments?

Nice work Skinny! You nailed them both. I was indeed referring to Milgram and Zimbardo's experiments. Highly unethical by todays standard, but they certainly raised the question and answered quite a few as well about social conditioning and obedience.

I'll leave Mist hanging a little longer for the fuller details though.

I love this group. So many people with such diverse interests.

[Mist]

Ouch. It hurts. Actually, I'm kind of glad because of my mindset right now. If you don't post sometime soon, I'll take it upon myself to study over the weekend, so the element of surprise and uniqueness is only with you for a limited time regarding these experiments. I have some knowledge of the Zimbargo experiments (although I've never heard that name), but the Milgram ones only vaguely stir a shimmer of recognition. I've actually been looking deeply into ethics and morals deeply recently, so I'm especially interested.

I'm glad you've joined our little group, Supes. Mudda, too, even though she was kind of here before too. Simey too, but I'm kind of new to Yahtz's forums, so you all may have been in before, and I just don't know it.

2
chaingang chorus: "Look down. Look down. You're here until you die."

(should we start a new topic for this experiment thing?)

This post has been edited by Mist: 18 June 2004 - 01:40 AM

[SimeSublime]

I used to post in the old forum years ago, but for some unknown reason stormed out, and have only returned recently. For the life of me, I can't remember why I did that now.

[Mist]

Welcome back, then.

4
Convict Two: I've done no wrong. Sweet Jesus hear my prayer.

This post has been edited by Mist: 19 June 2004 - 11:39 PM

[Little princess]

Yes, welcome back, and welcome anyone.

I love it when we're laughing at and with each other.

It's all very interesting, but we do have a tendency to get a teensy bit pompous, and a teensy bit stating the bleeding obvious.

I don't know the names of these experiments you talk about, but I do remember reading about an experiment where students or volunteers were giving electric shocks to people, in which the power was increased until the people were screaming in simulated agony although the students believed it to be real. yet they didn't stop inflicting the pain because those in charge told them to continue.

This is to demonstrate that people will follow orders, and can divorce themselves from the suffering of others.

We know that.