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Let's discuss this in full.

#1 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 03:52 AM

View PostGobbler, on 28 July 2009 - 09:06 PM, said:

I'm still left in confuzzlement by GTA4's ending and the lack of the interesting things which I expected to actually start after that point. :wacko:


The lack of purpose is a purpose in itself. No matter what franchises like Star Wars or Metal Gear Solid would have you believe, one person (or a clique) can't change the world. They can merely influence the outcome of an event or series of events. It also shows that somebody like Niko Bellic will never find solace as long as they live the way he does and that the people around Niko Bellic have more control over him than he has over himself. Of course I haven't played the other versions of the game because I own a Playstation so I can't say what the ultimate point of the game's plot is.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
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#2 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 05:49 AM

Fuck Niko, all I wanted was to form a mob of my own and instill some fear into the muddy veins of Liberty City. I already killed half of its populace by sheer accident alone - how hard can it really be?

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Pop quiz, hotshot. Garry Kasparov is coming to kill you, and the only way to change his mind is for you to beat him at chess. What do you do, what do you do?
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#3 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 07:24 AM

View PostGobbler, on 03 August 2009 - 08:49 PM, said:

Fuck Niko, all I wanted was to form a mob of my own and instill some fear into the muddy veins of Liberty City.


Then buy an Xbox and download this. Or you can wait a month or two before it is released for retail. Though I'm not sure if a Playstation copy will ever be made.

View PostGobbler, on 03 August 2009 - 08:49 PM, said:

I already killed half of its populace by sheer accident alone - how hard can it really be?


You honestly killed five million people? I very much doubt that.

This post has been edited by Deucaon: 03 August 2009 - 07:32 AM

"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#4 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 07:51 AM

And why's that?

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Pop quiz, hotshot. Garry Kasparov is coming to kill you, and the only way to change his mind is for you to beat him at chess. What do you do, what do you do?
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#5 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:29 AM

Because you can't use an atomic bomb in the game.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#6 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:45 AM

So?

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Pop quiz, hotshot. Garry Kasparov is coming to kill you, and the only way to change his mind is for you to beat him at chess. What do you do, what do you do?
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#7 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:03 AM

Even if you somehow managed to turn the whole of Liberty City into some sort of Auschwitz situation, you'd still need to be playing the game constantly for several years and that's without taking into account that you wouldn't have help. Remember that it took five years for Auschwitz personnel to kill one million to four million people. Since the game was only released last year, I find your statement impossible.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#8 User is offline   Dr Lecter Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 11:27 AM

Maybe he's paying some Nazis to play the game for him 24/7.
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#9 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 12:26 PM

:o
Brilliant!
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#10 User is offline   Thaluikhain Icon

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 12:49 PM

View PostDeucaon, on 03 August 2009 - 07:52 PM, said:

No matter what franchises like Star Wars or Metal Gear Solid would have you believe, one person (or a clique) can't change the world. They can merely influence the outcome of an event or series of events.


Hey? Isn't changing the outcomes of an event or series of events changing the world? A number of individuals, though admittedly rare, have had a massive impact on the world...Alexander, Caesar, Octavius, Chennghis Khan, Hitler etc
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#11 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:13 PM

All those people wouldn't have been anything if not for their predecessors, underlings and foes. Any new ideas they supposedly had or put forth were recycled old ideas with new names. They had lots of influence (no doubt) but they weren't the cataclysm for order and change as some would have you believe. In fact, the only real accomplishment of those you used as an example is that they commanded a state that conquered land and killed a bunch of people.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#12 User is offline   Dr Lecter Icon

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 02:15 AM

You're basically just arguing semantics, the fact is one person can make a difference sometimes. Are you really saying that at no point in history, no single person has made a noticeable impact on history?

Surely if you're claiming that some of these people only listened to their advisers then maybe those advisers are the ones that made an impact on history?

There are so many examples of single people making massive change in history you could write a 6,000 page book on it.
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#13 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 06:29 AM

You mean if a single person had changed the social order of a country or had complete control over a country? No.
Look at your own people's history for instance. Had William not had several loyal guardians who gave their lives to protect him while he was still young, had no one supported his succession, had there not been loyal soldiers who helped him take over Normandy, had Harold not invaded England and had Harold sent a larger force to meet William... well, William The Conqueror might not have had such a "noticeable impact on history."
And what did he do when he came to England? Did he change the entire political and legal system based on his own beliefs which were utterly unique? Why no, he didn't. He imported a French/Scandinavian system of rule and law.
I could give you a "6,000 page book" about every person who "made a noticeable impact on history" which would detail how they didn't actually have that much of an impact but I simply don't have the time. The most any of those people can claim is that they won battles and wars. Yet wars and battles are won as a result of soldiers more so than as a result of leaders.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#14 User is offline   Dr Lecter Icon

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 04:48 AM

I suppose you'd say that the guy that made Oswald's rifle assisted him? I get what you're saying, but I'm not trying to claim that every single one of the significance people in history looked after themselves from birth and didn't get help from anyone. The point is that they could have done something completely different if they had chosen to, and it would have made a dramatic effect on human history and there are people that have made decisions that have effected millions, maybe even billions of people.

And to claim that battles are won by soldiers not generals is abit short sighted. Yes, physical its the soldiers that go all the killing, but the fact is there are many examples in military history where generals have won battles mostly in strategy, think Hannibal at Cannae, Caesar at Alessa, Alexander the Great at Gaugamela, etc. I could go on, but there are thousands of examples where Generals have won battles in the sense that if another General had been there in their place, they would have more than likely lost. Cannae is a clear example because it fundementally changed military doctrine, and has influenced military strategy all the way into modern warfare even.

All I'm saying is that there are individuals whom if they had been killed before they did what they did, the world would be unpredictability different.

Hell, just think about Einstein, it's pretty much accepted that if he had not been born or died before he wrote the special and general theories of relativity, and all his other theories and discoveries, that technologically we would be 50 years behind the current wave. Its not that it would not have happened if he hadn't been around, we would just would be far, far behind our current tech level. Sure, a lot of other people were required to refine his work, but it was him that made the more significance step that allowed them to do that and surely that's the biggest effect someone can have on human history?
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