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Plausibility is Not LOVIBILITY Star Wars

#16 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 12:59 PM

I am not as anti-ROTJ as most other prequel haters but I do agree that it had its flaws. The Ewoks don't bother me nearly as much as they bother most people though I do agree that Wookies probably would have been cooler. I guess midgets work cheaper than giants.

I would have sure like the fight scenes (sadly the best parts of the prequel movies in my opinion) better if they did seem like fights scenes. I started asking myself if they were coreographed by the illegitimate lovechild of of Wu Ping and Paula Abdul.

Attack of the Clones was SOOOO long. The movie dragged at so many points. The Phantom Menace was piss poor but Clones just would not end. The inclusion of the world's worst and most unbelievable love story certainly didn't help the matter.
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#17 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 01:44 AM

I never really noticed how gay starwars was until i stumbled on the 64 and 78 reasons to hate it.

Shortly after reading both articles I came to realize that chef elf is a genious. I then went to his site and found out that he not only has an eye for incompotance, he also has a way of bringing it into the light of reason and exposing it for what it is!

In short, the man is a great complainer.
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#18 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 07:10 AM

No offense taken on how gay SW is.

I agree that ROTJ remains much better than EP 1 & 2. And I like the special edition version ending with the new new music and slightly altered editing. Unlike the PT, ROTJ still has the energetic flow of an adventure movie. Is it a result of the cast members which had such a nice onscreen rapport?
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#19 Guest_Remotely Despondent_*

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 10:27 AM

Sure.

Firstly, the "classic trilogy" actors were humans. (even the muppets I suppose) Second, they'd been through thick and thin, hot and cold, and rose from relative obscurity.

the new breed had been preordained. These are your next heroes: accept them.
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#20 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 11:00 AM

QUOTE (Remotely Despondent @ Nov 5 2003, 10:27 AM)
the new breed had been preordained. These are your next heroes: accept them.

Very well put.

Also, thank you Jordan. I take my art (read: complaining) very seriously (read: not actually that seriously at all). I thank you.

ROTJ isn't as bad as a lot of people say it is. I particularly like that the movie isn't really about Luke, Leia and Han it's about Vader. The scene when Luke says: "Then my father is truly dead." is brilliant. Luke walks away and Vader is left alone, looking out into the Endor forest. David Prowse (from beind Vader's mask) breaths more emotion into that one scene than Anakin has had in the entire Prequel trilogy so far.

Where has that level of quality gone?
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#21 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 01:39 PM

to " a galaxy far, far away"





thanks for the layup.
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#22 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 11:15 AM

No problem. I am the Kevin McHale to your Larry Bird.
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#23 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 02:01 PM

you flatter me. anybody could have slam-dunked that one.

not sold on going for "three"


Actually Anakin's acting has had it's moments. (Spoiled brat hothead with little human interaction?)
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#24 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 02:55 AM

"ROTJ isn't as bad as a lot of people say it is."


Yes it is.

Sure, maybe it's not as bad as a lot of *other* people say it is, but it's certainly as bad as I say it is. The plot is identical to that of the first film. This is bad. Th final conflict is borrowed from the previous two films and meshed together uncomfortably into one confusing touchy-feely mess. And the resolution is bewildering. I don't know *anyone* who didn't walk away from that film wondering whether they'd just been asked to forgive Adolf Hitler.

Of course, the worst of it wasn't that Leia is Luke's sister (the shallowest possible payoff to the "there is another" statement that Lucas could possibly have written). Nor is it the army of teddy bears that take out the fully armoured Imperial stormtroopers by attacking them with sticks and rocks (a tactic the Britons tried against Imperial Rome, and failed at). No, the worst thing in the entire movie was the hole in the ground that burped when it ate Boba Fett. Two things that should never have been in the movie: the hole in the ground that burps; Boba Fett. They were both there because Lucas had no idea what his audience had liked about EMPIRE (Lucas has bad taste), and so he resorted to including things he thought might sell toys or be funny for kids. Second-guessing your audience is a sure sign you've given up.

The general failing of ROTJ: there is nothing in it to put it in the same series as EMPIRE, the film with the romance, the failure, the emotional investment (Chewbacca's howl when Han disappears into the night), the great little moments like Yoda looking down sadly as Luke enters the cave and Han complaining that he thought Tauntauns "smelled bad on the outside."

In the light of STAR WARS, JEDI is a second-rate knock-off. In the light of EMPIRE, JEDI is something from a different series altogether. It is the TEMPLE OF DOOM of the STAR WARS series, a triviality that isn't entirely awful but is certainly bad as a lot of people say it is.

Mike M.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#25 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 09:20 PM

One thing I’ve learned over the years is to first go with my gut feeling and then figure out whether those feeling meets intellectual scrutiny. With ROTJ, I did not feel as satisfied with the film as I did with ESB, which doesn’t prevent me from watching it over and over. (Same with the PT) But when I look at ROTJ with the same intellectual rigor I had for ESB, ROTJ falls short.

I still love how ROTJ wraps up the OT. And with the criticism that ROTJ is a cheap immitation of AHN, I can turn that around into saying that that is ROTJ’s biggest strength. ROTJ was the adventure fantasy that ANH was.

I can say this about the Star Wars films. At least SW is better in that it took GL five films to do what the Wachowsky brothers did with the Matrix in three. Kind of a sad state of affairs.

I still love what Civilian_Number_Two said in an earlier post: “Lucas has taken my childhood memories and kicked them in the nuts.” LOL
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#26 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 11:07 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Nov 1 2003, 04:32 PM)
I agree that it is plausible that Anikin bought and assembled a protocol droid for his mother, and that maybe some time later it was fitted with all those languages. 

remember in EMPIRE when c3po is lured into some room by a silver 3po droid "EE chu da" "how rude, that sounds like an artoo unit, hello?" and then is blasted to bits?

maybe anikan as darth created this other 3po droid to be bait for c3po. (he's a genius) or maybe it's a common droid model that anikan created from some kit like a snap-tite model. (he's not so smart, just a member of the lucky midiclorian club)

it still gets to me how Darth knew luke had the force with him at the DS battle, yet for all that time he was with his own force carrying daughter he was oblivious. I guess that's part of the I'm on the smart side of the force at the present time and I realize things/pendulum swing/I'm on the dumb side of the force and I'm clueless theory.


theory theatre. if SW hadn't outgrossed Jaws, nobody would give a damn right now.
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#27 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 04:32 PM

I also go with my gut feeling on movies, and mine for ROTJ was that it was a great film. Sure the burb was unnecessary. However it was one second of the movie. Who cares? The Ewoks are ok for this reason; they show how through all of these superweapons and monstrosities of technology the Empire made, they underestimated the simplest things, they *slipped through the Empire's fingers* to use leia's line. They defeated blasters with arrows, that is WHY it was good. The Empire underestimated the little guys (a metaphor as well for the Rebellion) and the little guys kicked their asses. Also another thing. The only reason the battle was won was due to Chewie commandeering the AT-ST. Lucas wasn't so unrealistic to think that sticks could beat blasters outright, and if that hadn't happened, most likely the Ewoks would have been demolished eventually, as their element of surprise wore off. This is why the Ewoks are good. Next: Boba Fett. He's there because of his popularity from Empire and because of continuity showing he brought Solo to Jabba and is treated as a guest there now. I like that he was "killed" off (he's alive in the EU and is actually cooler in the EU than in the movies in my opinion) early because he would just be a nuisance to the real story of Vader. Next: Emperor-Vader-Luke scenes. They're fabulous. They're the best scenes in the trilogy, or at least some of the best. They're fabulously acted (between Prowse's movements and Jones's voice, Vader is the best-acted perseon in the trilogy, ESPECIALLY in ROTJ). Ian Mcdiarmid, one of the only good facets of the prequels, does a fabulous job depicting pure evil (I'll admit he uses the it is unavoidable to fall to the dark side line a bit too much but all his lines are said with such evil emotion that I didn't notice until the 5th time I watched the movie). And Mark Hamill gives, in my opinion, his best performance of the trilogy as well, making a great transformation from an ambitious farmboy to an impatient student and finally to a mature Jedi. Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford's parts are a little brought down in scale in order to show more of who the trilogy is really about: Luke. Leia and Han are there to help him, but it's Luke who "returns the Jedi" and gives the final victory of good vs evil (well Vader does but whatever). But anyway the Emperor storyline and scenes are fabulous. Next: the supposed "love triangle" and its solution. First off, there is no love triangle by Jedi, even before we learn they're siblings. At the end of Empire, Leia declares her love for Han, Han for her, same with the beginning of ROTJ. Luke is their friend. Gone, done, and finished, we didn't even NEED a solution because as far as I was concerned, two people loving each and a third guy who has a purely plutonic though caring relationship with the girl does not constitute for a love triangle. I can understand at the end of ANH if you felt there was one, but by the end of Empire it was pretty clear who was with who. The brother-sister thing is fine. It explains well a couple of things that happen in ESB (Yoda saying there is another, Leia being able to communicate telepathically with Luke, wow it was almost as if they had a twin bond...). The only thing in the trilogy that makes this a bit hard to accept is that Leia kisses Luke in ESB (Lucas using his disgusting sense of humor again as he did in TPM with a 9-year-old and a 14-year-old set to marry each other, or perhaps just an error in continuity that the continuity guy missed). Other than that, it's clear from the start that their relationship is pretty plutonic, especially in ESB (even the kiss has no passion or anything in it, just to get Han jealous, though it still is weird).

Ok next: Space Battle: The best space battle ever filmed that blows anything down before out of the water and is still better than anything since. The Falcon escaping the death star is a classic scene copied usually unsuccessfully by many other people in movies since. Period. Next: Music: Fabulous, the music for the Emperor's scenes is suitably eerie bringing a tension to the music not prevalent in the other movies (the Imperial March, though cool, is still just a march). The ewok music (not the Ewok battle music just the Ewok music) is I will admit probably the weakest theme in the trilogy, however the Battle of Endor music with the Ewoks is great, still using the theme but in a much more grandiose way. Music for the space battle touches upon old themes bringing a nice sense of continuity in the trilogy, while still providing new and exciting music. The music for where Luke burns Vader's armor (also one of the best scenes of the trilogy) is the most heart-wrenching and beautiful uses of the Force theme in the trilogy (yes even moreso than the binary sunset). And the new SE victory music, while not really as grandiose as it could have been, is still suitably beautiful and ends on a high note (literally and figuratively) which is a good lead-in to the credit music. Next: Overall plot: Fine. Not necessarily as inventive as the others, but logical, considering the fact that of course the Emperor would want to continue building a Death Star, most of all to show that though the rebellion destroyed it, he and his empire could just built another one stronger than the one before it. In Jabba's palace the creatures are extremely inventive (a couple a little too over-the-top, but for the most part very cool), and the battle is very well-done as well. The last 30 minutes shows some of the most intense movie-making ever, and while each individual plot may not have been that original (other than the emperor scenes), using them together like that was.

You also say you examine the movie afterwards to see if it met your standards intelectually. Well, as you see, Jedi did, moreso than the other two, and here's why. It was able to combine the happy-go-lucky nature of ANH that was lacking from ESB and the tension from ESB lacking from the adventure of ANH into one movie. That is why I love it, and why I will defend it to the last when people criticize it.
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#28 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 04:33 PM

Eek, sorry for the long post guys, it's just when I get into stuff like this I keep goin and goin.
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#29 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 06:26 PM

i had some really articulate things to add to this thred, that i think would have been really interseting to add to this, but now i'm so exhausted from reading i can't remember anything i was going to say... blink.gif
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#30 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 10:32 PM

Heh yea sry bout that my bad biggrin.gif
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