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"they didnt even ask me any questions." not to pull a hannibal or nothin but...

#31 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 12:12 AM

Ireland:

I would ask you to kindly define liberalized, but I fear its frightfully similar to "westernized" or "warmonger" and I don't want to have that debate ever again. When England DID control Ireland for several hundred years, torture was not as widespread as you suggest it needs to be in your example. The only time there was a systemic campaign of torture was during the time when British and, later, Protestant Ulster hegemony was fading. It did not succeed in saving either. You seem to suggest that Britain was "correctly" using torture to bring about fear in the Irish people, but then, suddenly, they became egotistical and stopped, and so the Irish rose up and threw them out of Ireland. This is absolutely and unequivocally false. The 1916 rising occured due to the failure of home rule and the IRB/IV forces deciding to follow Wolfe Tone's advice and take advantage of WW1. Torture was not extensively used against the Irish at this time, and was not used until after the IRA had begun to win.

Vietnam:
... I am amazed that you suggest torturing members of the military who he needed on his side as a way of maintaining their loyalty. Is it, however, possible, that his officers and the CIA chose to fuck him over because he was, ya know, an evil torturing son of a bitch?

Cuba:
Batista tortured and killed dozens of the Moncada barracks attackers, and executed political rivals. Fidel barely survived attempts on his life when he was captured and during his trial. Castro does not torture people period. Nor does he murder or imprison dissidents without trial the way Batista did, if youre going to say so, please cite sources. I can detail several instances where Batista did this, and you clearly are attacking President Castro just for trolly lulz, and not because you have any evidence to back your accusations.

Stalin
And his government crumbled the minute he died. You seem to view all government and taxation as a form of robbery, so I doubt I'm going to reach you here, but isnt it better to have a government that respects human rights and isnt based solely upon torture pyramid schemes, that will last for generations and provide stability?

Israel: Israel is currently following the Zionist cause by trying to conduct a campaign of genocide against the natives of Palestine in order to steal their land based upon the wishes of, guess who, Zionists. I do not believe that the reason Israel hasnt finished off their campaign of genocide in the old nazi fashion is due to egotism. I would put forward that it is likely cheaper to ruin a place's economy, culture and government and let emigration, hunger, social decay and sickness do its work than it is to set up proper concentration camps. And yes, that effort does indeed involve systematic torture, very good. But it is far from the mainstay of the occupation. Also, check back in 50 years and see how well this campaign of genocide and systemic torture pays off for the Israelis. Your view of government and economy is entirely too short sighted.

Quote

Systematic terror: It works, even if you don't admit it. It's not something you'd want to live under, of course. But when you live under a desperate government, you don't have a lot of choice.


In what way does someone not have a choice? In all those examples people chose to fight said desperate governments and in most situations crush them and do justice upon those guilty of the outrages against humanity. You choose a specific time frame, maybe a decade or two, point at it, and say "look, torture kept so and so in power!" first of all, in most cases it didnt. Second of all, it didnt keep them or their system in power as long as a robust economy and democratic reforms would have.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#32 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 02:04 AM

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 29 December 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

Ireland:

I would ask you to kindly define liberalized, but I fear its frightfully similar to "westernized" or "warmonger" and I don't want to have that debate ever again. When England DID control Ireland for several hundred years, torture was not as widespread as you suggest it needs to be in your example. The only time there was a systemic campaign of torture was during the time when British and, later, Protestant Ulster hegemony was fading. It did not succeed in saving either. You seem to suggest that Britain was "correctly" using torture to bring about fear in the Irish people, but then, suddenly, they became egotistical and stopped, and so the Irish rose up and threw them out of Ireland. This is absolutely and unequivocally false. The 1916 rising occured due to the failure of home rule and the IRB/IV forces deciding to follow Wolfe Tone's advice and take advantage of WW1. Torture was not extensively used against the Irish at this time, and was not used until after the IRA had begun to win.

Vietnam:
... I am amazed that you suggest torturing members of the military who he needed on his side as a way of maintaining their loyalty. Is it, however, possible, that his officers and the CIA chose to fuck him over because he was, ya know, an evil torturing son of a bitch?

Cuba:
Batista tortured and killed dozens of the Moncada barracks attackers, and executed political rivals. Fidel barely survived attempts on his life when he was captured and during his trial. Castro does not torture people period. Nor does he murder or imprison dissidents without trial the way Batista did, if youre going to say so, please cite sources. I can detail several instances where Batista did this, and you clearly are attacking President Castro just for trolly lulz, and not because you have any evidence to back your accusations.

Stalin
And his government crumbled the minute he died. You seem to view all government and taxation as a form of robbery, so I doubt I'm going to reach you here, but isnt it better to have a government that respects human rights and isnt based solely upon torture pyramid schemes, that will last for generations and provide stability?

Israel: Israel is currently following the Zionist cause by trying to conduct a campaign of genocide against the natives of Palestine in order to steal their land based upon the wishes of, guess who, Zionists. I do not believe that the reason Israel hasnt finished off their campaign of genocide in the old nazi fashion is due to egotism. I would put forward that it is likely cheaper to ruin a place's economy, culture and government and let emigration, hunger, social decay and sickness do its work than it is to set up proper concentration camps. And yes, that effort does indeed involve systematic torture, very good. But it is far from the mainstay of the occupation. Also, check back in 50 years and see how well this campaign of genocide and systemic torture pays off for the Israelis. Your view of government and economy is entirely too short sighted.



In what way does someone not have a choice? In all those examples people chose to fight said desperate governments and in most situations crush them and do justice upon those guilty of the outrages against humanity. You choose a specific time frame, maybe a decade or two, point at it, and say "look, torture kept so and so in power!" first of all, in most cases it didnt. Second of all, it didnt keep them or their system in power as long as a robust economy and democratic reforms would have.


Ha! Godwin's Law, I win.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#33 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 12:33 AM

That's good. Maybe now that you've won anyhow you can trample upon the defeated corpse of my argument by, ya know, replying to it? PS: Your tactic of quoting a massive post thats right above your own post, and then replying with a single sentence, is awesome. Never change Deuacon, we all love your trollish ways.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 30 December 2010 - 12:35 AM

Quote

I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#34 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:07 AM

View PostJ m HofMarN, on 30 December 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

That's good. Maybe now that you've won anyhow you can trample upon the defeated corpse of my argument by, ya know, replying to it? PS: Your tactic of quoting a massive post thats right above your own post, and then replying with a single sentence, is awesome. Never change Deuacon, we all love your trollish ways.


I'm sorry, it's my fault. I shouldn't have started to argue with an asspie.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#35 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 12:47 AM

:wub:

Quote

I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
0

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