[civilian_number_two]

Hmm. I think I've already posted enough for one day, but I though I should say:

I don't know if you mean me or the other Mike when you said "movie guy can be mean." I agree that I can be mean sometimes. I apologize for that.

[Ferris Wiel]

Not to mention it completely diminishes, Luke's character. He is no longer a hero turning triumphant after redeeming his father. He is now thispathetic loser who didn;t get the girl in the end...

I am not sure if romance with Leia is a big topic on Luke's mind after ESB.

considering

Luke was already pathetic in my mind. I stopped liking Jedi (the type of person) when I got to be about 17 years old - I thought they were weak little soothsayers who had to use magic. Basically they were RPG nerds (note how they aren't "allowed" to have sex or fall in love or anything... it's granting an "honor code" to the life of the typical dork-ass comics den geek) who had their dreams granted so they would really have the powers they pretended to. I won't say I went to the bounty-hunter loving extreme, though; I always preferred pirates and smugglers. This is beside the point.

Somebody was going to lose in this "love triangle." In the early drafts of ESB, Han wasn't around, so Luke won out. But by the end of ESB Luke was more than set to not get the girl. He wasn't her fucking brother until the re-write of ROTJ. George Lucas has admitted this in several places, including "From Star Wars to Jedi" and the annotated screenplays. So, he had already written himself into that "corner." I have no problem with Luke not getting Leia in the end, even if they aren't related.

Also, Luke could easily have this on his mind. He may not be considering the power of the "wang" but relationships would obviously be on his mind, among these his relationships with his father, with Yoda, with Obi-Wan, and with his friends - Leia, Han, Chewie, the droids and even Lando. So, yeah, that scene made sense.

But it is funny that you should bring these up:

1. He is now dealing with the concept that his father is the man he has been eager to kill for the last few years.

My question is this, why should it matter? If you've been chasing after the man who killed your adopted parents and later your first major mentor, why the hell would it matter who he was? "Oh, he's my father! I need to redeem him!" Say what? He doesn't even know Anakin the Jedi; he knows Vader the badass Sith.

2. The massive Jedi training that Luke has to go through to get himself into becoming a Jedi.

Oh, and this was handled masterfully -

Yoda: "You know what you need to. You can now become a Jedi... just confront Vader and it's all yours."
Luke: "Umm, but Yoda, I only trained for like 2 or 3 days with you... and then I went running around the galaxy for nine months or so with no formal training. You really think I'm..."
Yoda: "Just read the script."
Luke: "...just read the script..."
Yoda: "You are ready."
Luke: "...I am ready..."

3. The fact that he know has to plan a way of getting Han free of the carbomite.

He wasn't alone in this. Lando and Chewie were supposed to be pretty good at this rescue stuff, too.

4. Hell the pain of rehabbing after your hand has been cut off, would be enough to kill your sexual drive.

Who said anything about sex? This is just about tying up loose ends before getting ready to go off and do what he must.

If you were in his shoes, is a romance really the first thing on your mind.

No. But if you read it, it wasn't in that case either. Not that it mattered.

--FW

[Mike Mac from NYU]

"Star Wars: Return of the Jedi was, simply put, a good movie. Maybe it wasn't the amazing Epic to rival The Empire Strikes Back that you wanted, but hey, thats what happens when you set your sights too high. And you know what, fuck being an artist. If an artist wants to do something for profit, and not for merit, and he churns out a good, but not amazing movie, then im not going to complain. If there's one term that I would have no qualms with cutting from every American's vocabulary, its "sell out." Besides, its always hard to make a good ending. You can't have any cliffhangers; you have to decide what the hell you actually want to do with your characters, and the story, and junk like that. But hey, I dont feel a need to talk about it any further either. "

I have always stated that ROTJ is not as good a movie as ESB. But ROTJ should not penalized for that. ESB was a tough act to follow and ROTJ did a good job in ending what was a great trilogy.

I think the phrase that Star Wars:Return of the JEdi s is a good movies is apropos.!!!!! And the consensus of the majority of the viewing public is that it was a good movie, but not as good as ESB. 'Nuff said

I have nothing against a good debate. But I'm just going to come out and say it; sometimes you, Mister Movie Guy, come off as being sort of mean. I dont feel like quoting anything right now; I dont even particularly care, but there it is. Reading through this thread, alone, I could sense some hostility.

I think a majority of us don't like to have their views put down by so called 'film experts". I put myself into this category as a so called 'film expert" as should other nameless posters {if you know what I mean}.

Why should I be considered a cultural peon because I happen to like ROTJ! Or why should civilian be considered an obstinate, obtuse, objective, oliphant for thinking that ROTJ is trash.

I think we should all accept and believe that are opinions are all valid and acceptable.

From this day on I will not extoll ROTJ in this forum, if civ, ferris and jyamg, do not denigrate it.

TRUCE??

besides, I have been posting for the last three hours and I am still at level boss?? WTF, ELF??? :angry:

How the hell did Rory post 800,000 times? How is that even possible?

PEACE

[Mike Mac from NYU]

Hmm. I think I've already posted enough for one day, but I though I should say:

I don't know if you mean me or the other Mike when you said "movie guy can be mean." I agree that I can be mean sometimes. I apologize for that.

Don;'t change one bit, civilian!!!! You are what you are and we love you for it, man.

[Just your average movie goer]

Well, I can say it's pretty obvious that nobody here is going to change anyone else's mind pretty soon.

You, V-wing and Rory still love Return of the Jedi.

Civilian, Ferris and myself still hate it.

I can't understand why you guys like it and your arguments all seem pretty weak to me - although you obviously feel the same about our ones.

Yeah, I guess I'd be happy enough to call it a truce for now. Although I can't make any promises. If the war starts out again, I have a duty to my side to grind Return of the Jedi into the dust and salt the earth. But for now, I shall leave the battle field. Yes, we shall call it a truce. Go home to your loved ones.


And okay, Rory. I guess sometimes I come across as a bit mean but it's not intentional.... well, not entirely intentional. Sorry.

Have a good weekend everyone.

- Movie Goer


PS - Ferris, you and Civilian are legends.

[J m HofMarN]

I think RotJ is like asparagus, some people have a taste for it and some don't and there's really no argument that can make someone like it or not. However we can all agree that the prequels are like deep fried lard, in that only the most boring and silly human being could hold them on par even with asparagus.

[Jordan]

Truce?

I was following this on going debate and enjoyed reading what both sides had to say.

Fucking pussies!

[Just your average movie goer]

Temporary truce, Jordan. Temporary.

[civilian_number_two]

Well I flat out proved, with nice little quotes and everything, that Lucas had not intended for Luke and Leia to be siblings when he released EMPIRE, and noone wanted to talk about it!

So on that point, I quit. It is clear that is is a futile as discussing the Bible with Christians. I will never bring it up again.

PS: Any Christians wanna discuss the Bible?

<chirp chirp> <chirp chirp> <<<<<<------------------- (Crickets)

[Just your average movie goer]

That's the kind of thing that wore me down too, Civilian. All our arguments were solid, convincing and most importantly, concrete facts that can not be debated over. And yet none of it made the slightest difference.

The entire time, I felt like I was arguing with a brick wall (NO OFFENCE, RORY!!!!! :angry: ). The Return of the Jedi lovers are pretty stubborn and ignorant when it comes to their movie.

Like, I've said earlier. I don't mind if people enjoy the movie. I just get the shits when people try to defend it. The appropriate thing to say is -

"Return of the Jedi is not much of a movie but I still enjoy watching it."

That's all these guys have to say. And I wouldn't have a problem with it at all.

By the way, the appropriate thing to say for Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is slightly different and goes as follows -

"Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is a horrible, awful and stupid film... yet for some strange reason, I like to watch it."

And while I'm at it, I might just say something to one Rory, lord of all the Chefelf and Lance and Eskimo forums who somehow made several billion posts in the space of one evening...

You stated on this forum that you weren't bothered by the fact that some people will destroy the integrity of their work to make a quick buck. If you really think that way, then I would like to kindly suggest that you shouldn't even be posting on this forum. If the rest of us discuss the merits of films as intensely as we do, it should have occured to you that we do care about film as an artform. And compromising a movie series to make more money is NOT OK.

When I watch a movie, I would hope that whoever made the movie put their heart and soul into trying to make the best movie they could. Even if the movie is bad, I don't feel bitter towards its creator if they tried their hardest to make a good film, with good intentions. With Return of the Jedi, Lucas clearly did not.

You know, Rory, I am an amateur writer in my free time. And when I'm working on a novel, I work very hard on it. I pour a lot of blood, sweat and tears into it, trying not only to make the thing work, but to make it as good as I possibly can. And here is the catch - I don't know if I will even make a single cent at the end of the day for my troubles. But yet, I keep working at these things. You know why? Because money or no money, I want to make something worthwhile.

And if I as an amateur author work this hard on something that may never earn me a single cent, then I don't think it is unreasonable of me to expect that a film-maker who is guaranteed to make a fortune with the release of his next film, to show the same commitment. And do not argue that Return of the Jedi's profits weren't already in the bag. They were. They were in the bag before The Empire Strikes Back had even finished its run at the cinema in 1980.

And you know what, fuck being an artist.

Now that pissed me off.

Mister Movie Guy

It's Just Your Average Movie Goer, mate. That's the full title anyway. I also answer to Movie Goer and JYAMG. Pick one. And in future, you better put Sir in front of it.

As for me being mean, I just tell the truth. Although clearly, some people here can't quite get up when they're run over by the reality truck.

* Reality Truck is a trademark of Just Your Average Movie Goer. Copyright 1997.

Maybe I am mean, maybe I'm not. But at least I am genuinely interested in film critique, which is more than I could say about you, on the basis of your 'fuck being an artist' comment.

You can email the moderators and get me kicked off any time you want now. I'm done with this argument.


On a different subject, Mike, I just thought there was something strange about one of your comments about Luke and Leia -

Then if the have bad chemistry between each other, don;ty you agree the logical step is to make them siblings!!!!! 

The strange thing is that there are many guys and girls in the world who, if paired together, would make terrible couples. But they can't all be brothers and sisters.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Don't worry, I am still keeping the truce with you, Mike. I just wasn't finished with Rory yet.


And Civilian, you were right on when you said that this debate with the Return of the Jedi lovers was as futile as arguing with Christians about the Bible. They were certainly as stubborn and closed to reason.

But I wouldn't ask any Christians on the board to discuss it with you. I don't think we have any of the extreme nut-jobs but it's best to play it safe.

I just remembered a stupid argument I had with one of those Creationists about the theory of Evolution. I found a bit hard to stomach his shit about the world being only 6000 years old and that God put fossils of dinosaurs in the ground and carefully designed them so that they would fool modern scientists into thinking that they were millions of years old. It was hard to stomach such childish bullshit, especially from someone who was not a child, but I kept trying to put some reason into his stupid, stupid brain.

However when he said that the reason why he believed in the story of Creation over the theory of evolution was because "there [was] no evidence for evolution.", I gave up and left....

... after picking my jaw up from the floor.

I don't want to sound like a prick, but there are some people who are too stupid to breathe. I can only hope that guy never has any kids.


And for a closing comment on Return of the Jedi, I thought the kiss between Luke and Leia in The Empire Strikes Back was proof enough that the brother/sister thing was made up later.

You can lead a horse to water, you can splash it all over its face and you even dunk its head in it. But you can't make it drink.

Yep, I quit too ... again.

- Movie Goer (disappointed but not particularly surprised)

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 13 June 2004 - 04:17 AM

[J m HofMarN]

I think it all depends on when we saw it. Some of us saw ROTJ and saw it as a star wars movie while others who watched them when they came out saw it as an abomination. Maybe we're not understanding how bad this movie was. We like it despite all rationality and I think a lack of logic and rationale is sometimes a good thing. Some of the best things in life are lacking in any justifying logic. I know there were problems with return of the jedi and it is different than the other movies but when I first saw it I enjoyed it and I still do. I give up rational argument, I think rationally speaking one could find flaws in even ESB if they wanted to. I abandon reason now and just say that I liked this movie and that there must be reasons for that. That's the best argument I can offer.

[Just your average movie goer]

Thanks, mate. That's all I wanted. Happy watching.

[Rory]

Okay, looks like I need to defend my perfectly rational views.
I'll try to keep this simple.

That's the kind of thing that wore me down too, Civilian. All our arguments were solid, convincing and most importantly, concrete facts that can not be debated over. And yet none of it made the slightest difference.

No, most of them were not concrete facts. Those few that were based off concrete facts were sort of irrelevant. For example, you seem to have made a big deal about whether or not Lucas ever intended for Luke and Leia to be sisters, or for there to be a second death star, etc. I did not address these points because they didnt matter to my argument. It doesnt matter that Lucas intended for Luke and Leia to be sisters, for example. It just turned out to be an interesting twist that helped tie the trilogy together. Yoda says "there is an other." Leia turns out to be that other; thus, there is no need to bring in another character out of no where, it helps explain why luke sent a message to Leia, etc. Makes sense to me. You're an amateur writer, Mr. Movie Guy, right? Ever wrote a story where you aren't entirely sure of the ending? Don't be afraid to say yes; writers do it all the time. If so, wouldn't you want the ending to make sense, and not come out of the blue? Thats what Lucas seems to have done; he looked back, saw what made sense, and added a fun interesting twist.

Another big problem with your argument is that it is making a very strong claim. You are making the claim that Star Wars: Return of the Jedi is an awful film. AWFUL! Thus, you need a rather strong argument to do so; the balls in your quart. Mentioning Ewoks, a few baseless opinions, and a few irrelevant facts just doesnt cut it. Most people like Star Wars: Return of the Jedi. Many intelligent people, including myself, Mike, and Chefelf think the film has more pros than cons. You have a pretty big tower to topple. Furthermore, our claim isnt that Star Wars: Return of the Jedi is some amazing film, some landmark of cinema, or even the 2nd best star wars movie. We are merely saying its a pretty good film, and a fine ending to a very nice trilogy. Its 3rd best, and that ain't bad.

The entire time, I felt like I was arguing with a brick wall (NO OFFENCE, RORY!!!!!  ). The Return of the Jedi lovers are pretty stubborn and ignorant when it comes to their movie.

First of all, I'm pretty sure anyone with any view worth arguing feels this at one time or another. You hold one view; I hold another. Do the math.

Secondly, did you really expect me to suddenly agree with you? I think this is probably one of the biggest misconceptions people have about arguments. Arguments are rarely about changing the minds of those you are arguing with. Someone who is hoping to do that is either naive or a really really really skilled debator. I should think we are neither.

Thirdly, I think basically the same thing about the ROTJ bashers. Basically...

Like, I've said earlier. I don't mind if people enjoy the movie. I just get the shits when people try to defend it. The appropriate thing to say is -

"Return of the Jedi is not much of a movie but I still enjoy watching it."

That's all these guys have to say. And I wouldn't have a problem with it at all.

But thats not what I feel! I feel ROTJ is a legitemately good movie! This is what I argued for.

You stated on this forum that you weren't bothered by the fact that some people will destroy the integrity of their work to make a quick buck. If you really think that way, then I would like to kindly suggest that you shouldn't even be posting on this forum. If the rest of us discuss the merits of films as intensely as we do, it should have occured to you that we do care about film as an artform. And compromising a movie series to make more money is NOT OK.

What I said was that I don't give a shit what the artist was thinking when he made the film; judging a film by how much effort someone put into it, and not how it actually turned out may work in 4th grade, but it just seems silly to do with serious films. If someone makes a film for money, and ends up making a really amazing, thought provoking film, then good for him! I judge a movie by its own merits, not by what I might think of the director himself, his motives, or his means. That just seems to make sense, dont you think?

Saying that I shouldn't be posting on this forum was mean of you to say, Mr. Just Your Average Movie Guy.

When I watch a movie, I would hope that whoever made the movie put their heart and soul into trying to make the best movie they could. Even if the movie is bad, I don't feel bitter towards its creator if they tried their hardest to make a good film, with good intentions. With Return of the Jedi, Lucas clearly did not.

Thats odd; when I watch a movie I just hopes its going to be an all around good and enjoyable movie. How much effort the artist put into the movie might factor into it, sure, but if some super genius just happens to churn out some brilliant amazing film without really trying then thats fine with me. Similarily, if some amateur film maker pours his soul into a movie, and it turns out to be really crappy, Im not going to enjoy it more, or judge it more highly as a piece of art. Would you?

You know, Rory, I am an amateur writer in my free time. And when I'm working on a novel, I work very hard on it. I pour a lot of blood, sweat and tears into it, trying not only to make the thing work, but to make it as good as I possibly can. And here is the catch - I don't know if I will even make a single cent at the end of the day for my troubles. But yet, I keep working at these things. You know why? Because money or no money, I want to make something worthwhile.

And if I as an amateur author work this hard on something that may never earn me a single cent, then I don't think it is unreasonable of me to expect that a film-maker who is guaranteed to make a fortune with the release of his next film, to show the same commitment. And do not argue that Return of the Jedi's profits weren't already in the bag. They were. They were in the bag before The Empire Strikes Back had even finished its run at the cinema in 1980.

That is a rather selfish viewpoint, if you ask me. Lucas doesnt owe the world anything, really. Why should he have to put tons and tons of effort into every film he makes, especially if what he does without too much effort (apparently) turns out to be pretty neat (as I have argued that ROTJ did).

I'm an amateur writer myself, Mr. Average Movie Guy, Sir. Sometimes I put a lot of effort and soul and what not into my writing, and sometimes I just write something really fast for fun. And you know what, sometimes the stuff I just write quickly for fun turns out to be a lot better than the stuff I pour my soul into. Sometimes things I have done for school assignments and the like turn out to be really good, even though I wrote them mainly to get a good evaluation (say because Epic Poetry really isnt my style). The point is that the reader or the audience or what have you doesnt care how much effort i put into the piece (or if they do, they cant really tell, anyway); they care whether or not what I write is actually any good.

Now that pissed me off.

Why? I think theres something to be said for not taking being an artist too seriously, especially when you place a higher value on the artist than the art itself. If I write a story, I sure as hell dont (particularly) want someone to use what they judge about me to evaluate how good my story is.

You can email the moderators and get me kicked off any time you want now. I'm done with this argument.

Now, why would I do that? We're just having a friendly debate, right?

[Just your average movie goer]

Okay, Rory. You wrote a well thought-out reply and made a lot of good points. You have my respect back.

Ever wrote a story where you aren't entirely sure of the ending? Don't be afraid to say yes; writers do it all the time. If so, wouldn't you want the ending to make sense, and not come out of the blue? Thats what Lucas seems to have done; he looked back, saw what made sense, and added a fun interesting twist.

That's a good point and you got me there. I have to confess that most of the time, I don't know what's going to happen on the next page. And occasionally, when I think back on the pre-conceived plotline, I wonder "What was I thinking? Character A wouldn't do that. He would do... this!"

Therefore, I will concede the point to you - that my qualm with the way Lucas wrapped up that plot thread was that I would have preferred to see a new character come out of it. So it's a personal opinion.

We are merely saying its a pretty good film, and a fine ending to a very nice trilogy. Its 3rd best, and that ain't bad.

Okay, I guess that's pretty reasonable. As J M HofMarN said, Return of the Jedi is like asparagus. Some people have a taste for it. Some people don't.

Secondly, did you really expect me to suddenly agree with you?

No. I just got irritated by some of the responses people brought up against the arguments. I have to apologise because you personally never brought up the line of defence that really irked me - the "Your arguments are nitpicking!" line of defence. A few people said that earlier and I don't think that's an intelligent defence. However, as I said, you were never guilty of that - so my apologies.

I feel ROTJ is a legitemately good movie! This is what I argued for.

Fair enough. There are no right and wrongs when it comes to tastes in movies, regardless of whether I can understand them or not. I guess it is a hell of a lot better than the prequels (without a single doubt) and a lot better than your usual movie fare. Some like myself were disappointed because we wanted something a lot different for the third Star Wars movie and didn't get it. But obviously, enough people are happy enough with it to make us probably a minority.

I judge a movie by its own merits, not by what I might think of the director himself, his motives, or his means. That just seems to make sense, dont you think?

I judge a movie on its own merits too - but if I don't like the movie, I'm going to think a lot better of the people who made it if they at least tried to make a good movie, with good intentions. It doesn't make me like the movie anymore - it just lets the director, cast and crew off the hook.

But if someone makes a bad movie and I learn that it was bad because they put no effort into it and didn't give a damn about whether it'd be worth watching, then shame on them.

That's all I meant by those comments. I think you could probably agree with that.

Saying that I shouldn't be posting on this forum was mean of you to say, Mr. Just Your Average Movie Guy.

Sorry about that. But at the time, I thought you were just taking a dig at everyone who took film critique a little seriously. I take my comment back.

How much effort the artist put into the movie might factor into it, sure, but if some super genius just happens to churn out some brilliant amazing film without really trying then thats fine with me. Similarily, if some amateur film maker pours his soul into a movie, and it turns out to be really crappy, Im not going to enjoy it more, or judge it more highly as a piece of art. Would you?

No. I agree completely. I just don't like people who make bad movies because they have a lot of money and don't give a damn about how much the audience will enjoy watching it. That's all.

That is a rather selfish viewpoint, if you ask me. Lucas doesnt owe the world anything, really. Why should he have to put tons and tons of effort into every film he makes, especially if what he does without too much effort (apparently) turns out to be pretty neat (as I have argued that ROTJ did).

This one, I will have to argue against. It's a good point in theory - except that Lucas became very rich because millions of fans worldwide paid a lot of money, collectively, to see his films and buy the merchandise. This is one of my biggest grievances with the prequels - Lucas alienated the older fans who got him rich in the first place, the same fans who waited over twenty years to see these new films.

Lucas DOES owe the world good movies, from a certain point of view.

And you know what, sometimes the stuff I just write quickly for fun turns out to be a lot better than the stuff I pour my soul into.

Okay - you got me there. Guilty, as charged. Sometimes the stuff I write for fun turns out a lot better too. And sometimes the stuff I pour my heart and soul doesn't turn out very reader-friendly. However, I would still argue that if a studio is giving a film-maker a lot of money to do something, then they ought to work hard at it.

Perhaps a better analogy would be that many people like myself, work very very hard at our jobs and get paid peanuts for our troubles. So we reason that people who earn lots of money should at least work as hard as we do - or more so, as some of these guys could retire for life after making one film.

If I write a story, I sure as hell dont (particularly) want someone to use what they judge about me to evaluate how good my story is.

True. Me too.


Okay, well I guess that's all said and done, for now. Very good post, Rory. And I liked what you had to say and took a lot of it onboard. Respect.

Lastly, if it helps, some of my meaner comments were written very early in the morning when I felt dead tired. I'm not always at my best then.

Cheers

- Movie Goer (with a newfound respect for you)

[J m HofMarN]

Movie goer- I think that's a point I can actualyl argue. How can you deny that Lucas put effort into this? Did you figure he would be Leia's brother? Lucas had to actually think of that. He wanted an idea that would add some drama to the trilogy and maybe make Luke a more concrete character as well as get him out of the way of Han and Leia's romance. So he produced a genuine plot device. That takes effort. Look at how non-caring prequel era Lucas would handle this:

Lucas: Ok, now we need a reason why Luka cannot bang Leia. I say that we say she has a high midiclorian count and if they went at it their progeny would be too powerful and cloud the force. Also the other guy Yoda spoke of will pop in with a three sided orange lightsaber! KOOOOOL!

So you see, THAT is no effort. The prequels are no effort. There was actual thought put into ROTJ. If not Luke would have just said "I don't care if you're my father you wear black and carry a red light saber" and then vader would yell "die jedi!" and they'd have a thirty minute saber duel before Luke slew vader and yoda returned from the dead to fight teh evil emperor. After thirty additional minutes of force-related madness the emperor would say something like "this contest cannot be decided by whatever we've been doing, but by arm wrestling." a hillarios scene woudl then insue wherein Yoda and Palpatine made silly faces and arm wrestled but Yoda would win and smack palpatine's hand on the table so hard it would bust open and he'd bleed to death.

That is no effort. There was dialogue during vader and Luke's fight. There was feeling in it. You don't get that without a little thought. And there were other elements in the movie that were really well meaningl. The ewoks worshipping C3PO was kind of cool although it could have done without the song and the story telling but that was well meaning too. This was a good movie and I don't care what the rest of you wanted I enjoyed the happy ending and thought the ghost scene at teh end as well as the burning of vader's body was cool. There was thought and effort put into this movie. The best evidence I can give of that is that the battle between the imperial and rebel fleets was just a back drop for the battle of wills between Luke and Palpatine. If present day Lucas had done that it would be more like this.

Palps: Hey Luke. The Jedi commit sodomy all the time. Join me.

Luke" No.

Palps: OK. Then let's watch this amazing space battle for a long time.

Luke: Yes, lets.

-A one hour long cgi space battle ensues and contains at least 2 yippies-

Palps: So still dont want to join me?

Luke: Not really.

Palps: Ok then, have a long and pointless fight with Darth Vader.