[Ferris Wiel]

ROTK blew monkeys, though. The editing was done with a chainsaw, the makeup looked like Ed Wood fare and the sets looked just like. Jackson did a fine job on the first two, but what we have the right to judge are the RESULTS and those were awful.

The same with ROTJ. There were apparently differing ideas on Ep VI: Kurtz had one set and Lucas had the other, Lucas won out, thus we can see the results of Lucas ideas. They were pathetic.

In all of these films we can sit back and view the results and appearances without having an idea about the processes that went into them. I can say that the Spiderman looked like a CGI marionette because that's what it looked liked even though I don't know what was involved in generating that image. I can do the same with a doctor who amputates the wrong foot. I can say, "MY GOD, what a MORON," in good conscience despite the fact that I cannot perform the medical procedure myself.

The difference is where you and Rory can dismiss a one-or-two word idea from Kurtz, Civvie or whomever while defending the atrocious results of a shallow flick like Jedi. The other problem I have is that you guys seem to disregard Kurtz, who being much closer to the series and more involved has greater insight into the Lucas thought patterns (particularly the whole shitty "rollercoaster" theory that explains why Lucas can now be renamed "Gerry Lucheimer").

--FW

[civilian_number_two]

"In the first draft, during his training Luke calls Obi-Wan Kenobi; Ben appears and explains what has happened to him since he was struck by Vader. He is now in a different part of the universe. Ben says that he's brought someone else with him, and Luke's father appears (obviously, in this draft Vader is not Luke's father). He is described as a tall, fine-looking man and is referred to as Skywalker. Skywalker tells Luke that he has a sister; he won't reveal where she is for fear that Vader might then be able to find her. The concept of Luke's sister was discussed during story conferences: The idea was that Luke's father had twin children and took one of them to an uncle and the second one to the other side of the universe so that if one was killed, another would survive. It was suggested that Luke's twin sister would be going through training at the same time he was and become a Jedi master as well. Eventually, in another episode the story could deal with both Luke and his sister as Jedi Knights."

-STAR WARS: THE ANNOTATED SCREENPLAYS, Laurent Bouzerau: Del Rey, 1997. p 182.

"In the story treatment an in the first draft Han has blasted the large shield door, and as the Falcon is about to leave, Solo notices Luke, who is hanging from a grate. ... In the second draft Leia hears Ben's voice telling her to save Luke. She orders Lando to go back, and they find Luke hanging from the weather vane. ... In the revised second draft Luke is almost unconscious, hanging onto the weather vane. He sees the Falcon approaching, and in an attempt to wave, he breaks the weather vane. Leia and Lando see Luke falling and get the ship under him." -p 221

"In the second draft the last scene takes place on the bridge of a Rebel star cruiser as Lando and Chewie are about to leave to search for Han. Lando shakes hands with generals, admirals, Rebel senators, and officers. Artoo beeps to Chewie, and Threepio translates that he hopes he finds Han; Threepio also thanks the Wookiee for putting him back together. Luke offers to go with them, but Chewie "barks negative." Lando promises that he'll come back with Han or die trying. As the Falcon takes off, Luke tells Leia that he'll be leaving soon, too; there's something he's got to finish. Leia thinks he's upset because he realizes she loves Han, but Luke says: "I have been swept into another sphere. Han is better for you ... Don't worry, they'll find him." Luke kisses her on the forehead, and they watch from the viewport as the Falcon disappears into a sea of stars." -p 227

"George Lucas: Usually, if I like something and I have to drop it, I put it on the shelves and very often end up using it somewhere else later on." -p249


SO: Luke had a sister in an early idea, but she was never Leia; Leia heard Luke not due to a sibling or Force-related connection, but because it was a screenwriting necessity conceived early on and implemented in different ways; Luke resolved his romantic conflict with Leia but the scene was cut to retain romantic tension for a later film; Lucas likes recycling old ideas (see PT) and looked over his notes for a lazy way to bring in the "twin sister" notion, with all the narrative clunkery of Anikin building 3P0, minus the cool lady Jedi stuff we probably would have loved.

Answers to obvious objections: a ) bull crap it's too late to introduce new characters, film series do it all the time, and it is far less stagnant than just making all the existing characters related to one another; b ) of course the final film is the final say, but I say there's good reason to argue that Lucas pulled a SEARCH FOR SPOCK here, finding ways of making story elements that he had never intended (certainly not as far back as STAR WARS, but I say if he'd had the idea here then he would have cut the kiss in the hospital); c ) if there is anything at all interesting or necessary about this sudden revelation, why does Lucas do literally NOTHING with it? Nothing AT ALL?

PS: In the first draft of JEDI, there were TWO Death Stars, not just one really big one. Top that!

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 11 June 2004 - 11:34 AM

[Ferris Wiel]

*Rescue Han
*Han is integral in the massive battle effort
*Han is killed surprisingly in a battle-winning and heroic maneuver

1. My biggest problems with this is that it esentially removes the use of Han Solo as character for literature and for potential sequels. which is what i am sure Lucas was considering.

2. It is unnecessary and redundant since you went along this path with Han Solo's carbonite freezing. If you want to kill Han you would be better off having him die in a failed attempt to rescue him from carbon freezing. it makes no sense to rescue him from Carbon freezing and then kill him later.


3. Luke and Leai actually have no chemistry together, they would make a horrible man and wife.

That's why it is surprising. They went through the effort to rescue him, it paid off, but he still died. It's like The Matrix trilogy. Not perfect, but at least workable.

But I'm riffing here, for God's sake! That's off the top of my head! Give me or any screenwriter with half a brain some time and I'm sure that an easy solution would present itself. Therefore, I, for one, like the idea of Han dying.

Also, what in the hell makes it necessary that there be some kind of "hook up" at the end of the series or story? It would be great to see a major filmmaker have the balls to leave things on an overall upbeat ending, but with a bit of a downer.

Finally, the sequel trilogy notion is bullshit. He had nothing - no steam left. I would sacrifice the entire body of EU literature for a good film to replace the ass-eating ROTJ.

--FW

[Ferris Wiel]

Don't you also agree, that after reading several Star Wars novels, that Luke and Leia have better chemistry and work perfectly as BROTHER & SISTER. And how natural that relationship is?????????

Pardon me for asking, but so what? Just because great sci-fi novelists are capable of redeeming shitty writing on Lucas' part doesn't mean that Lucas had some ingenious masterstroke, it just proves that these guys are better writers than he is.

--FW

[Mike Mac from NYU]

My idea was that Luke would just lose out, and realise that he didn't have a chance. Then after all is said and done, he could shake Han's hand, wish him well, and then walk away with a feigned dignity.

Gad, is that a horrible way to end it? Do you really in your right mind think that is an acceptable way to end the trilogy.

Just imagine how that scene plays out. Just imagine, it.

jeez it sound like something out of a bad Saved by the Bell episode!!!!! :yuck:

[Ferris Wiel]

My idea was that Luke would just lose out, and realise that he didn't have a chance. Then after all is said and done, he could shake Han's hand, wish him well, and then walk away with a feigned dignity.

Gad, is that a horrible way to end it? Do you really in your right mind think that is an acceptable way to end the trilogy.

Just imagine how that scene plays out. Just imagine, it.

jeez it sound like something out of a bad Saved by the Bell episode!!!!! :yuck:

Quoting a quote, sorry Civvie-
ESB Annotated Screenplays:

As the Falcon takes off, Luke tells Leia that he'll be leaving soon, too; there's something he's got to finish. Leia thinks he's upset because he realizes she loves Han, but Luke says: "I have been swept into another sphere. Han is better for you ... Don't worry, they'll find him." Luke kisses her on the forehead, and they watch from the viewport as the Falcon disappears into a sea of stars." -p 227

"Saved by the Bell" my ass.

--FW

[Mike Mac from NYU]

But I'm riffing here, for God's sake! That's off the top of my head! Give me or any screenwriter with half a brain some time and I'm sure that an easy solution would present itself. Therefore, I, for one, like the idea of Han dying.

I asked Civilian too come up with an idea sketch, but he refused!

Think!!, FERRIS!!!.

In ESB you had a tearful Leia and Chewbacca saying goodbye to Han as he enters the carbonite chamber. It appears as if Vader has gotten the upper hand on them for the final time. Leia is crying, Chewie wants to help escape, but Han says no he has to look after the Princess and protector. Leai then tells Han for what could be the final time that she loves, him. They kiss. He emerges from the chamber as a frozen carbonite sculpture. Leia is horrified, so much so that she is almost not aware of the fact Lando says he is alive.

Now in ROTJ, you want to have another dramatic , tearful goodbye between Leia and Han????? Especially when it comes right at the moment of Luke's confrotantion with Vader and Vader's death?????

IT'S REDUNDANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And worse since you were prepared for the possibility of Han dying in ESB, a death of Han in ROTJ would lose ALL impact!!!!!!!!

That's why it is surprising. They went through the effort to rescue him, it paid off, but he still died. It's like The Matrix trilogy. Not perfect, but at least workable.

I also seem to remember the last Matrix movie as sucking big time. The first one was much superior. The second one was okay.

Pardon me for asking, but so what? Just because great sci-fi novelists are capable of redeeming shitty writing on Lucas' part doesn't mean that Lucas had some ingenious masterstroke, it just proves that these guys are better writers than he is

.

But you have read them. Do you consider the pairing of Luke and Leia as brothers and sisters annoying in the novels?????

Again, too many people want ROTJ to be the same type of movie like ESB, which it rightfully should not be. ROTJ should be as different a film in tone and ANH is in tone when compared to ESB.

The tone of ESB is reserved for a movie that is the bridge and cliffhanger for the trilogy!!!

[Mike Mac from NYU]

QUOTE 
As the Falcon takes off, Luke tells Leia that he'll be leaving soon, too; there's something he's got to finish. Leia thinks he's upset because he realizes she loves Han, but Luke says: "I have been swept into another sphere. Han is better for you ... Don't worry, they'll find him." Luke kisses her on the forehead, and they watch from the viewport as the Falcon disappears into a sea of stars." -p 227



"Saved by the Bell" my ass.

Your, right. It's much worse!! It sound like a damn Harlequin romance novel with Fabio on the cover !!!!!

[Mike Mac from NYU]

QUOTE 
QUOTE 
As the Falcon takes off, Luke tells Leia that he'll be leaving soon, too; there's something he's got to finish. Leia thinks he's upset because he realizes she loves Han, but Luke says: "I have been swept into another sphere. Han is better for you ... Don't worry, they'll find him." Luke kisses her on the forehead, and they watch from the viewport as the Falcon disappears into a sea of stars." -p 227



"Saved by the Bell" my ass.

Not to mention it completely diminishes, Luke's character. He is no longer a hero turning triumphant after redeeming his father. He is now thispathetic loser who didn;t get the girl in the end...

I am not sure if romance with Leia is a big topic on Luke's mind after ESB.

considering

1. He is now dealing with the concept that his father is the man he has been eager to kill for the last few years.

2. The massive Jedi training that Luke has to go through to get himself into becoming a Jedi.

3. The fact that he know has to plan a way of getting Han free of the carbomite.

4. Hell the pain of rehabbing after your hand has been cut off, would be enough to kill your sexual drive.

If you were in his shoes, is a romance really the first thing on your mind.

[Ferris Wiel]

I asked Civilian too come up with an idea sketch, but he refused!

Think!!, FERRIS!!!.

In ESB you had a tearful Leia and Chewbacca saying goodbye to Han as he enters the carbonite chamber. It appears as if Vader has gotten the upper hand on them for the final time. Leia is crying, Chewie wants to help escape, but Han says no he has to look after the Princess and protector. Leai then tells Han for what could be the final time that she loves, him. They kiss. He emerges from the chamber as a frozen carbonite sculpture. Leia is horrified, so much so that she is almost not aware of the fact Lando says he is alive.

Now in ROTJ, you want to have another dramatic , tearful goodbye between Leia and Han????? Especially when it comes right at the moment of Luke's confrotantion with Vader and Vader's death?????

IT'S REDUNDANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And worse since you were prepared for the possibility of Han dying in ESB, a death of Han in ROTJ would lose ALL impact!!!!!!!!

No, it isn't a tearful goodbye, it's a TOTAL, mind-numbing SHOCK! He dies bravely, with purpose, but with NO WARNING. QUINT-FUCK-UPLING the impact.

I also seem to remember the last Matrix movie as sucking big time. The first one was much superior. The second one was okay.

I followed the story, I understood it and I enjoyed it. I went into the film with different expectations and it exceeded them. What changed my perception of the trilogy was when I looked at Morpheus and many of the citizens of Zion as being one extreme, the Architect being the other and Neo forming a bridge between the two. As far as I could see, and I haven't viewed it as often or deeply as the SW trilogy, the series was without contradiction. Also, the worst of the film were probably the "technobabble" stuff, not really the plot... unlike ROTJ.

But you have read them. Do you consider the pairing of Luke and Leia as brothers and sisters annoying in the novels?????

Once again, if you take it as a given that they're brother and sister, the novels work fine. The fact of them being siblings is not at issue. It's the means by which Lucas came to that end and the fact that it was unnecessary and stupid to do make them so.

Again, too many people want ROTJ to be the same type of movie like ESB, which it rightfully should not be. ROTJ should be as different a film in tone and ANH is in tone when compared to ESB.

The tone of ESB is reserved for a movie that is the bridge and cliffhanger for the trilogy!!!

What I want, is not for them to be the same "type" as you put it, by which I guess you mean "tone." What I expect is for them to be of the same quality and depth - which they are not. There are no layers, there is no subtlety, there is backpedaling and scrambling. What I expect is for the film to hit me and make me wish for a sequel rather than a replacement.

What people have done is misunderstand what makes the a wide swath of we fans excited for books, merchandise, prequels and sequels. We don't go on the motivation that ROTJ was a fine film. Many of us overlook the film because of the quality of the other two, so we clamor for a hearkening to the excitement, thrills and depth of storytelling found in those. Something desperately missing since 1980.

--FW

[Mike Mac from NYU]

What people have done is misunderstand what makes the a wide swath of we fans excited for books, merchandise, prequels and sequels. We don't go on the motivation that ROTJ was a fine film. Many of us overlook the film because of the quality of the other two, so we clamor for a hearkening to the excitement, thrills and depth of storytelling found in those. Something desperately missing since 1980

.

And yet, some of us feel that ROTJ gave us exactly what we wanted in the final chapter of Star Wars. That it followed ever point made in ESB, and followed it to a logical conclusion. We came back from the theatre satisfied and with the sense that a great Trilogty had concluded.

On the other hand... those same ROTJ fans came in to the Phantom Menace expacting that same grand story expanded and explained, but got unbelievably disappointed by how off the film was. We wished along with you guys for a replacement to Episode I

I bring up the same point I brought to jyamg.. The fans that love ROTJ HATE the PT films with a passion. Just the same as the ROTJ haters.

If teh ROTJ lovers , loved the PT films as much, civilian, jyamng and ferris might have a point. But we don't love the PTs. We think of them as an afront to everything that is Star Wars!

I think it comes down to this.. ROTJ lover and ROTJ haters just have different views on what the Star Wars trilogy is about. I think it is evidenced in the film styles loved by those in both camps.

If you look at the movies that civilian loves and hates and his overall manner , It is impossible niot to imagine how he could not HATE ROTJ.

Much the same with jyamg

V-Wing! Rory! look at his movies that he has enjoyed and the manner of their posts and you can see why it is logical for them to like ROTJ.

You know I am willing to bet you could make an impressive psychological analysis on human behavior by examing those that hate ROTJ and love ROTJ.


Hell, the whole human race condition can probably be explained and divided by this criteria

1. ROTJ lovers
2. ROTJ haters

Too bad Carl Jung isn;t here.

[civilian_number_two]

I think you're both missing the point of why I bothered to type out all that nonsense. It's not to pose the notion that Lucas's early ideas had more merit. It was to point out that as late as the second draft of the screenplay to EMPIRE, he still conceived of Luke/Han/Leia as a love triangle, that the sister idea came about much later. That the kiss in the hospital survived to the final edited film I say cements the fact that Leia became Luke's sister after the film was released, not while it was being filmed. The actors didn't know, the screenwriter and director didn't know, and Lucas didn't know.

The other point of posting all that was to answer Mike's question about the purpose of the thought-speak scene: it was to make it so that the crew of the falcon could find Luke. It had been conceived in differnt ways, and it was a means to an end, not an end of itself; like when Spock grabbed Bones's face in WRATH OF KHAN, it just happened to be usable later, by accident.

==================

I agree that Luke shouldn't end up with Leia. I also don't think Han should have died, althought that was the original idea. I think that only left Luke to take the hit for the sake of drama. Sure, if you're ending the series anyway, then why bother? But if there were to be another trilogy, I think Luke needed to die, so the "other hope" notion from EMPIRE could be realized. And yeah, a woman, yeah a sister, why not? But Carrie Fisher? Jedi Knight? No way.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

And yeah, a woman, yeah a sister, why not? But Carrie Fisher? Jedi Knight? No way.

Then who was gonna be the other? Don;t tell me that it is going to be acceptable to bring in a brand new jedi out of nowhere into this trilogy? It wasn't going to work, civilian. Not even you could or I could make it work without expanding the frigging trilogy to a 4 part series

[civilian_number_two]

And yeah, a woman, yeah a sister, why not? But Carrie Fisher? Jedi Knight? No way.

Then who was gonna be the other? Don;t tell me that it is going to be acceptable to bring in a brand new jedi out of nowhere into this trilogy? It wasn't going to work, civilian. Not even you could or I could make it work without expanding the frigging trilogy to a 4 part series

Then, my friend, you have no reason to claim that THE GODFATHER PART III was any good at all. It introduced completely new characters; therefore it sucked.

And yes, I said "If you're going to end the series anyway, then why bother? But if there were to be another trilogy, I think Luke needed to die, so the "other hope" notion from EMPIRE could be realized. And yeah, a woman, yeah a sister, why not? But Carrie Fisher? Jedi Knight? No way."

Remember, lucas had been spouting off since EMPIRE that he had a nine-film series in mind.

You might have wanted to read all that before responding.

[Rory]

Okay, lets see.

First of all, its okay to criticize anyone, especially if you have reasoning to back up your claims. Besides, Krutz (or whatever his name is) didn't even make a value judgement regarding Han, so I wasnt even criticizing something he said. Also,Someone can make amazing movies and still have the occasional bad idea, or even an idea that might work, but paints a movie in completely different, sometimes inappropriate light. For example, killing Han would have made Star Wars a hell of a lot darker. And I really don't think thats what the Star Wars movies are about; the audience wants Han to survive, and its not like Star Wars is going to make some grand statement by killing him off. When you really boil everything down, Star Wars is a really fun story, an epic battle between good and evil. Why mush that up by killing off one of the good guys just for the fun of it? I mean, I guess you could, but it just doesnt seem keeping with the flavor of the story.

Star Wars: Return of the Jedi was, simply put, a good movie. Maybe it wasn't the amazing Epic to rival The Empire Strikes Back that you wanted, but hey, thats what happens when you set your sights too high. And you know what, fuck being an artist. If an artist wants to do something for profit, and not for merit, and he churns out a good, but not amazing movie, then im not going to complain. If there's one term that I would have no qualms with cutting from every American's vocabulary, its "sell out." Besides, its always hard to make a good ending. You can't have any cliffhangers; you have to decide what the hell you actually want to do with your characters, and the story, and junk like that. But hey, I dont feel a need to talk about it any further either.

I have nothing against a good debate. But I'm just going to come out and say it; sometimes you, Mister Movie Guy, come off as being sort of mean. I dont feel like quoting anything right now; I dont even particularly care, but there it is. Reading through this thread, alone, I could sense some hostility. But hey, we all come off as a little mean sometimes, so you probably dont have to worry about it. Thats really all I have to say in this particular matter, unless you'd really like to discuss it further.